Arizona House OKs Birther Bill! here we go....

Originally posted by Clisen33
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but...

The problem I have with the "official birth certificate" that all of the people are defending, is that it does not have the vital information needed to prove that he was born in the U.S.

Does yours? Mine does not either. No doctor sig. It is short. The title says "Certification of Birth." I am in NY. This is all I can get and this is the only thing that has ever worked when a BC was needed. I am still waiting for one of you to explain to me what is wrong with me citizenship.

Your problem with it is one you decided to make up. Can you show me where a birth certificate is required to include certain info and what that info has to be? Surely you would just not conclude it was fake because of some random idea in your head, right?

I don't know but if we're looking at it from a conspiracy point of view, they could have just printed a new birth certificate (Which it is), paid off people to certify it and satisfy the public.

Yes they could have and yet even you think that the one shown does not look real. Why is that?

Now, comparing an actual 1960's era birth certificate to the one shown for Obama, it looks quite different.

1960's era birthcertificate

Obama's new birth certificate

Apples and Oranges. A 1975 issued birth certificate in the state of NY looks very different from the one I have from 95. For one thing, the old one was longer

Besides, this only demonstrates that you are willfully ignoring the FACT that Hawaii has changed what the issued BCs look like and contain since 1965. That is not even debatable and yet you are just plain ignoring it as if you never heard that at all. Maybe that is true but that would mean you have done NO research at all in your search for truth as well as the fact that you posted in a thread with that information so you must just be spamming threads without reading them.

Is that an honest way to come to a conclusion?

It does not have any signatures of the parents/witnesses, hospital etc. If they showed the long hand version of it, it would quell any resistance to the matter. In my opinion, no signatures of parents/guardians and witnesses is not valid in this case, but that's just me.

Again, neithe does my NY state birth certificate that is accepted by the US as proof I was born in NY state. There is one signature on it, - The registrar of vital statistics. That is it.

Again, you are calling his fake based on what, again? What you WANT to see in a BC or what legally needs to be there?

I'm aware Whatukno showed that Hawaii does not issue any long form documents anymore because their in an "electronic database". To me that is just ignorant on Hawaii's case.

Better take it up with all the states that decided digital files might last longer than a piece of parchment in a box as well as eliminate the need for ever expanding storage space just to hold on to boxes of pieces of paper. Are you offering to buy the state of Hawaii a place to put those files or was your statement ignorant?

In 2006, I had to order a new birth certificate from the California Department of Health Services because my original long form got destroyed. Guess what? They had the original in an electronic database and printed the image onto a new piece of paper, that included all of the vital information that is necessary to prove my legal birth.

Let's just ignore the fact that you do not understand that Hawaii and California are two different states. What you just said is that your just got a printed COPY of your original. Tsk tsk.

Post that on the internet so the birthers can point out it is fake because...

-It looks like a copy.
-Being a copy it has no raised seal.

Good luck with that one. Now back to reality. NY, CA, HI are all different states. That is why my BC experience is so different from yours. Can you explain why you expect HI to be different from both me and you by being the same?

Here is an image of a birth certificate that looks exactly like mine.

California reprinted long form

How do you still not understand that CA is not HI?

So, Hawaii does have the long form birth certificate in an electronic database, but does not print them anymore (Ignorant in my opinion). They wont even print one to show the legal birth of the President of the United States? Give me a break... If California of all places can do it for a lowly citizen like me, I'm sure Hawaii can do it for the President.

I honestly think you are being disingenuous at best here. Like I said, if they just print a copy of a long form, none of these birthers will accept it because of the reasons I said.

Look in this thread. There are people here saying that real short form is fake because to them...

-It looks like a copy
-They do not see the raised seal

So I would have to say you are just saying things. Maybe you would accept that photocopy with no seal and give up but most of the birthers here would see that as less genuine and solve nothing. Just read what people use to call it fake. You will see that your printed COPY will not satisfy them and I highly doubt it would satisfy you.

There is a birth certificate from hawaii here posted - it looks nothing like the "evidence" presented.

I've told you exactly whats out of place with that bc. If you can't see it's an obvious forgery then you've simply ignored the signs of forgery I've clearly spelled out for you. That sir, is simply being willingly ignorant.

Does yours? Mine does not either. No doctor sig. It is short. The title says "Certification of Birth." I am in NY. This is all I can get and this is the only thing that has ever worked when a BC was needed. I am still waiting for one of you to explain to me what is wrong with me citizenship.

Actually mine has all that information. Location of birth, state, city, hospital. Signatures of doctors and parents. This is not difficult information to come by, every LEGITIMATE CITIZEN of the united states is likely able to provide it. I think it merely doesn't show up on your own birth certificate because its convenient for your argument(ie. liar.)

btw, i live in ny, nys bc - so yeah, you're full of it, that information does appear on the bc - just checked.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by djzombie]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by djzombie]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by djzombie]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by djzombie]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I hear you!! You must be wearing one hell of a helmet. Good luck with the tag team approach on the subject. It is getting deep and hip waders only go so high.

Just accept the fact that Obama is concealing the ID of his father and not his birth location and we will all be happy.



[edit on 20-4-2010 by jibeho]

Originally posted by OverSword
Upon request I can show a birht certificate, signed in pen by the delivering physician with the name of the hospital right under the inked footprints of my newborn feet.

That is so impressive but you know what is even more impressive than NOT THROWING SOMETHING OUT?

Getting elected president of the United States in spite of people like you.

I am guessing in ten years, history will be more favorable to the man who was president than they will to the man on ATS that did not throw something out?

Especially considering as BH said, what you have is not legal ID anyway. What state are you from so we can look at what your BC should really look like?

It is in my home right now. How many here born in the USA can't say that?

Right here, I am one who CAN NOT say that. I have not seen my original long form since I was too young to even care what it was for. My mom lost it when I was a kid.

On the other hand, there is a whole group of people just like you on A&E's Hoarders. Be proud.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Originally posted by djzombie
There is a birth certificate from hawaii here posted - it looks nothing like the "evidence" presented.

I guess I need a page number or a link because I missed anyone posting a real Hawaiian BC.

I've told you exactly whats out of place with that bc. If you can't see it's an obvious forgery then you've simply ignored the signs of forgery I've clearly spelled out for you. That sir, is simply being willingly ignorant.

What makes you think your opinion is any more valid than anyone else's about what is out of place? So far everyone telling us what is out of place has been proven wrong. Show us you are any better.

Does yours? Mine does not either. No doctor sig. It is short. The title says "Certification of Birth." I am in NY. This is all I can get and this is the only thing that has ever worked when a BC was needed. I am still waiting for one of you to explain to me what is wrong with me citizenship.

Actually mine has all that information. Location of birth, state, city, hospital. Signatures of doctors and parents. This is not difficult information to come by, every LEGITIMATE CITIZEN of the united states is likely able to provide it.

I never said I could not provide that INFORMATION. I honestly do not know if I could or not. You know why? In 35 years of proving I was born in the US, I have never had to produce that information. Considering it is not on my birth certificate either, it sounds like you are carrying around more than is even sensible but if it makes you feel good, go for it. What you have on yours does not make mine invalid so it is going to be hard to convince me that yours will prove Obama's invalid either.

Originally posted by djzombie
I think it merely doesn't show up on your own birth certificate because its convenient for your argument(ie. liar.)

btw, i live in ny, nys bc - so yeah, you're full of it, that information does appear on the bc - just checked.

Tra la la la la la la la

I expect that apology any day now for calling me a liar. You on the other hand also have time to prove my picture is not a legal BC in NY.

How do I post it so it has a scroll bar?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

[edit on 20-4-2010 by K J Gunderson]

Food for thought:

Hawaiian officials and their verification: I can verify that sitting across the room is a Power Macintosh 5400/200. I can provide a digital photo if need be, but I think people can take my word for it. I can also verify that I have added a third party processor upgrade to make it a G3/400. In the absolute truest sense can we say that this computer is indeed still an Apple product?

Newspaper Birth Announcements: How to submit a birth announcement for The Daily Journal, Battle Creek Enquirer, The Sun Cronicle, etc. Anyone think you could get a birth announcement for a made up baby this way, let alone one that was not born where you say it was?

If the birther theory is so completely crazy, why comment at all? Some naysayers are rather habitual in asserting their position any time the topic is posted. I very rarely post in a "I'm a (blank) ask me anything." or "No Planes Hit The WTC" threads because I find them rather pointless and well, a little crazy.

If your only reason in posting is out of a patriotic duty to support the president, cool. I can respect that. I would also like to see your undying patriotism in some other threads supporting previous presidents such as GWB, WJC, GHWB, RWR, LBJ, JFK, DWE, etc.

Although I suspect I should not hold my breath on that for health reasons, should I? Point is, that blind support is no more heathy nor correct than blind disapproval.

My obligatory tongue in cheek comment is that what we need in the office of the President is neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but an honest to god American if we are to have any chance of making things in this country right again.

reply to post by Clisen33


You'll notice that no one else wants to discuss the birth announcements.

Facts don't sit well with some conspiracy theories, this one for example is largely based on random ill educated Kenyans who say things like "we're proud a Kenyan is president of the United States".

That apparently is all the evidence you need to oust a sitting president.

This is a higher level of insanity than even the truthers can achieve, this one is somewhere out near Mars.

Originally posted by Kharron
I think this whole 'birther' thing is getting ridiculously out of hand. If 'birthers' only put this much effort into impeaching the last cabinet, we as a country might be a little bit more respected throughout the world today.

But in any case, let's just say that it turns out to be true and he is NOT a citizen, I will be the first to say let's follow the rules and get rid of him. The law is the law, right?

In the same manner, I'm wondering how many 'birthers' will apologize if they are proven wrong. Will any of you come on here and say 'I'm sorry I was wrong' or will you just find another topic to divide the people?

Kharron

If birthers are proven right, will you apologize to them?

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Food for thought:

Hawaiian officials and their verification: I can verify that sitting across the room is a Power Macintosh 5400/200. I can provide a digital photo if need be, but I think people can take my word for it. I can also verify that I have added a third party processor upgrade to make it a G3/400. In the absolute truest sense can we say that this computer is indeed still an Apple product?

Newspaper Birth Announcements: How to submit a birth announcement for The Daily Journal, Battle Creek Enquirer, The Sun Cronicle, etc. Anyone think you could get a birth announcement for a made up baby this way, let alone one that was not born where you say it was?

So you are proposing this is a conspiracy that was hatched upon his birth? How did they know he was gonna be president back then?

If the birther theory is so completely crazy, why comment at all? Some naysayers are rather habitual in asserting their position any time the topic is posted. I very rarely post in a "I'm a (blank) ask me anything." or "No Planes Hit The WTC" threads because I find them rather pointless and well, a little crazy.

If faking one is as easy as people like you claim, why pursue it?

If your only reason in posting is out of a patriotic duty to support the president, cool. I can respect that. I would also like to see your undying patriotism in some other threads supporting previous presidents such as GWB, WJC, GHWB, RWR, LBJ, JFK, DWE, etc.

What if it is just undying support for logic. I hate practically everything Bush did but if you asked him to prove where he was born and he provided the same level of proof, I would accept that. It is about not being crazy or too stupid to think about the nonsense that this conspiracy theory is.

A

lthough I suspect I should not hold my breath on that for health reasons, should I? Point is, that blind support is no more heathy nor correct than blind disapproval.

I am having trouble finding any disapproval in this regard that is not blind. Have any?

My obligatory tongue in cheek comment is that what we need in the office of the President is neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but an honest to god American if we are to have any chance of making things in this country right again.

I agree with you there and I think that stupid arguments that rely on willfull ignorance are a huge waste of time in that respect.

Originally posted by wickedzerxo
If birthers are proven right, will you apologize to them?

I will be the first one to personally apologize to each and every single one. So...what is the hold up?

Either people are convinced because they are too stupid to breath or because they have verifiable evidence. Why am I still waiting for it? If they believe that he was born in Kenya, then lets get to it.

Either admit you believe he was born in Kenya because you lack critical thinking skills and facts or prove it and I will get to those apologies!

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Hawaiian officials and their verification: I can verify that sitting across the room is a Power Macintosh 5400/200. I can provide a digital photo if need be, but I think people can take my word for it. I can also verify that I have added a third party processor upgrade to make it a G3/400. In the absolute truest sense can we say that this computer is indeed still an Apple product?

Wow. I need a "that went right over my head" emoticon. I don't understand what your computer has to do with this discussion at all. Can you clue me in?

Anyone think you could get a birth announcement for a made up baby this way, let alone one that was not born where you say it was?

The birth announcements are just corroborating evidence. They prove nothing.

If the birther theory is so completely crazy, why comment at all? Some naysayers are rather habitual in asserting their position any time the topic is posted.

As are some of the pro-birther crowd. There are certain subjects that interest certain people and it's not uncommon to find the same general crowd of people posting on similar subjects.

MY purpose in posting in these threads is to share the information that I've learned in my 2-years of research on the subject. And because I like it.

I'm not actually a nay-sayer. I don't claim to know where Obama was born, nor do I think that birthers should shut up and sit down. I strongly feel that it's important to ask questions and try to get the answers. If people are unsure about this, they they should pursue it. I just don't think they'll get anywhere because of the preponderance of evidence that supports Obama's natural-born citizenship.

If your only reason in posting is out of a patriotic duty to support the president, cool.

That is not my reason for posting in the birther threads. It has little to do with patriotism, except that Obama has the same right to his privacy as any other citizen does.

My other reason is that I enjoy it.

Point is, that blind support is no more heathy nor correct than blind disapproval.

I completely agree. And I'm afraid both exist in the birther/non-birther discussions. When people start bringing up his policies in a birther thread, then I know that it's not the birther issue that drives their participation, it's that they disagree with his policies and are using the birther issue to justify getting him out of office.

My obligatory tongue in cheek comment is that what we need in the office of the President is neither a Democrat nor a Republican, but an honest to god American if we are to have any chance of making things in this country right again.

I agree with your tongue in cheek comment.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Yeah, I guess comparing Apples to Obama is a tad confusing. The point of it is that the Hawaiian officials certify that the COLB is legit. It is one of their documents. You can see the seal, you can see their header at the top. But that in of itself does not certify that the information on the COLB is correct. As neither official can prove that information is correct.

We the regular people, don't know that the information is correct. The maternal grandparents could have sent in that information (and was legal to do at that time) either on behalf of Obama's parents or said that they were the parents (it was just a paper form to fill out much like the newspaper birth announcements that I linked).

How that compares to the old Mac sitting here. We can see the old rainbow Apple logo. We can read the face plate and even see the PowerPC label (standard at that time) on the front. We can compare it to photos of the model available online and say "Yep, that computer is an Apple product." But Steve Jobs can say that the processor upgrade card makes this computer no longer an actual Apple.

I don't think any birther is saying that Obama is not a US citizen, because he clearly is. Having a legitimate US Passport proof enough for that. Being born of one US citizen anywhere is proof of that. But being a natural born citizen requires that you were born on US soil and have never renounced US citizenship. The difference is that no one really knows for absolute sure until a ruling is made. In the case of McCain, a ruling was made that a US military base was good enough for being US soil.

What amazes me more than anything is that is seems I am the only one on ATS that knows why that clause is there in the Constitution. At least I have seen no one else ever repeat it. It is there because Thomas Jefferson hated Alexander Hamilton so much that he had it put in to prevent Hamilton from ever becoming President because Hamilton was a Haitian. That's it, the whole reason. Everything about a foreigner running/ruining the country was an example of spin after the fact.

So the whole debate, the anger, the vitriol, everything comes down to old Tom being a prick to a political enemy just because he could. And just a single amendment passed could remove it. Just like the passage of a single amendment could have ended all debate over Health Care Reform. Now that too will take a ruling to overturn, unless there is an act of Congress to supplant the current law.



[edit on 20-4-2010 by Ahabstar]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Well done, BH. that is all I have to say, even though it is a paultry addition to the breadth of this thread.

Okay, I have another thing to say. You exemplify fairness, and I place a lot of weight on that. No wonder I friended you long ago, despite our being on dissimilar poles in regard to this issue.

Kudos. fini

I got to thinking. Wouldn't the BC people being committing treason if they told us anything different from the actual truth-in an effort to hide the truth?

If so, I don't think everyone of the people in the chain of command in that specific area would do that-keep their mouth shut, mostly. The truth would get out.

But the fact still remains that this Birther issue isn't going away until the Long BC is seen, investigated and certified. Can we all agree on that? And the only one who can make that happen is Obama. And he isn't down with that idea-at all.

Some great points made on many sides. I have learned a ton from this.

Originally posted by anon72
But the fact still remains that this Birther issue isn't going away until the Long BC is seen, investigated and certified. Can we all agree on that?

No, we can not all agree on that. See if you can go get me my long form and then we can discuss it.

What you are really saying is that you are going to ignore the fact that there is no long form for him to go and get anymore. There is an electronic file with data in it and HI issued a document to prove that to you.

So in essence, it will never ever go away unless it meets a standard of proof that is actually impossible to meet.

And the only one who can make that happen is Obama. And he isn't down with that idea-at all.

Even if he could, I would not blame him either. He was vetted and elected. Now he has things to do.

Some great points made on many sides. I have learned a ton from this.

Apparently you did not learn enough or you are just plain ignoring some of it.

reply to post by anon72


So instead of answering the question - or - at the very least, continuing on with the argument that you brought up, you're going to shift gears and drive in reverse?

The birther movement is what you're taking part in, whether you call yourself a birther or not.

You can't attend a Star Trek convention and not call yourself a nerd (no offense to nerds, i consider myself to be a huge nerd actually)

You are crying for evidence that has already been presented, and yet you cry for more.

You can't answer my very simple question, and continue to regurgitate Sarah palin quotes as if they were your own.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck

You must be a birther.

[edit on 21-4-2010 by Snarf]

Are the "Birthers" all Master Forgers and therefore criminals? Because this thread seems to have a lot of "experts" that can tell a fake from a real one.

Let's just speculate that Obama is a CIA plant, Muslim Terrorist, the Antichrist whatever conspiracy you believe about the President.

Do you not think that he would get world class fake documents?

I mean common?

Look at who's backing him(insert angle/conspiracy here)


And to Anamnesis, I just had to reply to you with some Public Enemy of my own. Been getting into their stuff again and forgot how kickass they are.

Originally posted by Aggie Man
I swear, Arizona has gotten so kooky recently. I say let's give it back to Mexico and deport all the California/Texas illegals there...starting with John McCain (I'm convinced he is an illegal, unless he can show me his long form BC)

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Aggie Man]

John McCain is an american because his parents were. But he was born in Panama. Not even in the Canal Zone. Panama proper. The hospital he was born in was not in the Canal Zone. It is unclear whether he is a natural born citizen. Only the Supreme Court can decide that. What we think is legally irrelevant. If you read the 14th amendment, it would seem he is not, because it says that a citizen is someone born or naturalized in the US. Since he was not born in the US, and since it is an act of congress that makes him a citizen by virtue of his parents citizenship, one could make an argument that he was by working of law automatically naturalized at birth, since naturalization is the only way for someone not born in the US to be a citizen according to the aforesaid 14th amendment.

Don't anybody give me any BS about how they couldn't have meant that the son of a fighting man serving his country overseas couldn't be president. They wrote what they wrote and if they had meant something else, they would have written it that way. Maybe they weren't thinking about it, but unless we find some proof that they intended it differently than they wrote it, we have to go by what they wrote. But the Supreme Court has many times decided that what they wrote means exactly the opposite of what they meant. So they could still decide that he is natural born.

I say fine, not a problem, next time that Obama runs for office, he can show his COLB to Arizona's Secretary of State and prove he is eligible. Won't stop the birthers though, because they would demand that he show it to them personally.

Of course when Obama gets on the ballot in Arizona for POTUS, birthers will cry foul and say that because THEY didn't see his papers he shouldn't be eligible.

Ah pandering to the nut wing. Way to go Arizona!