UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
[snipped]
Im not talking about Aliens, Spacecraft, or Stargates. I am talking about Unidentified Flying Objects. Objects that Man has been unable to identify.

So, with this clarification in mind, and the idea that many religions base their beliefs on Astrological Phenomenon, are you still prepared to tell me that no UFOs have ever influenced any religious mythology?

You confuse me. By UFOs I mean those aerial objects that are seen and nowadays videotaped that do not conform to any human technology and are thought by the majority to come from other planets, galaxies, universes, etc., although I do not share that view as I have no idea where they originate and I don't think any human knows either. What do you mean by UFOs? What is your definition?

If many religions base their beliefs on "Astrological Phenomenon" (needs definition) and astrology is defined as a pseudoscience claiming divination by the positions of the planets and sun and moon, then I do not see or understand your linking UFOs with religions.

And, again, I have never seen any religious writing that emanated from anything connected with my definition of UFOs. Can you illuminate me/us on where the linking of nuts-and-bolts UFOs and whatever religion occurs?



[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

Originally posted by The Shrike
UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

Could you tell that to the aliens then, because they seem absolutely obsessed with religion, especially with regards to Jesus Christ. It seems like every so called alien encounter tries to deconstruct Jesus Christ and make the claim that he wasn't who he said he was or we created him etc.

www.alienresistance.org...

I wish that nice old lady I used to know had gotten this message as well. She would make all those yearly pilgrimages to Mt Shasta in CA to commune with the aliens whom she worshipped as Gods. Too bad the CIA killed her, but that's another story.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
[snipped]
Im not talking about Aliens, Spacecraft, or Stargates. I am talking about Unidentified Flying Objects. Objects that Man has been unable to identify.

So, with this clarification in mind, and the idea that many religions base their beliefs on Astrological Phenomenon, are you still prepared to tell me that no UFOs have ever influenced any religious mythology?

You confuse me. By UFOs I mean those aerial objects that are seen and nowadays videotaped that do not conform to any human technology and are thought by the majority to come from other planets, galaxies, universes, etc., although I do not share that view as I have no idea where they originate and I don't think any human knows either. What do you mean by UFOs? What is your definition?

I do not think you are being intellectually honest with me considering I defined UFO in my post. However, to CLARIFY AGAIN, I will elaborate.

A UFO, quite simply, is anything in the sky that cannot be identified by man.

If many religions base their beliefs on "Astrological Phenomenon" (needs definition) and astrology is defined as a pseudoscience claiming divination by the positions of the planets and sun and moon, then I do not see or understand your linking UFOs with religions.

Forgive me, I was in error, as I tend to be from time to time. Please reread my quote and replace Astrological with Astronomical. English, as I have stated in other threads, is not my first language.

And, again, I have never seen any religious writing that emanated from anything connected with my definition of UFOs. Can you illuminate me/us on where the linking of nuts-and-bolts UFOs and whatever religion occurs?

You've never seen any religious writings that describe unidentifiable objects in the sky? I think you are being dishonest, considering I can think of 2 off the top of my head from the Christian Bible alone.

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I appreciate what you and some of the others say. But the bottom line about religion is strictly to control others' behavior. Your brain, or mind, as a religious slave carries unnecessary baggage. All religions have a record of instilling fear in followers and most if not all wars have as the source, religion.

I also understand that it's too late for humans that mentally-conditioned to respect and obey religious dictates. Religious conditioned do not operate with their brain/mind 100%. I do because there isn't a shred of religious belief, nor any other belief, in my mind; I'm my own boss.

I don't accept the tales of ancients developing their religions because of contact with aliens. Modern interpretation of ancient events only please the modern.

I've had 6 UFO sightings, solid ones. All I saw was unknown objects having no connection to humans. I didn't see any gods. Nor did they awaken any religious desires in me. I live in a modern world and I adapt with it.

History describes it as a battle for humanity...
...and you know soldiers need law, ritual and discipline.

Israel was socially engineered about 3500 years ago to caccoon and fortify it...
...with law, ritual and discipline...
...effectively separating it from the hybrid tribes around them...
...and so good was their conditioning that they even survived without a country...
...and thrive today surrounded by enemies.

Like soldiers they did not always know what their mission was...
...but they had symbols of it and rehearsed it and followed orders.

And sure they had some 'baggage' but don't soldiers have their issues and entertainments and misbehaviour.

The biggest battle for the survival of humanity is about to begin...
...no time to get lost in the code and think that everything that has happened until now is meaningless My Shrike...
...we will need guys like you.

We have allies too...two-thirds of the Watchers are on the human side...
...and have been fighting rear-guard action for millennia in prep or the world we have now would even be worse...
...and they are awesome...
...it is recorded in the second book of the Kings that one Messenger killed 185,000 armed Assyrians in a night...
...I can't wait to see one of those 'boys' in action...
...it would make Arnie and Bruce Willis look like kittens.

Please don't shrug it all off quite yet mate...see past the misinformation and keep an open mind...
...the UFO's are just props and illusions to reinforce the Alien Hypothesis...
...to soften up dumb humans so they will be easier to manage peacefully for awhile when they first arrive...
...but it will get nasty if history repeats itself and it will.

OOOH this guy again.. lol educated? no, you're not. Im not exactly a christian or muslim or any of that stuff, and Ihate people throwing in spirituality into ufology as much as the next guy but as usual, you really have nothing backing your statements.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by stanlee]

Originally posted by The Shrike
I'll admit right off the bat I'm an atheist. But not just an atheist, I'm an educated atheist and my copy of the bible would be considered a researcher's treasure for it's full of notes garnered over many years. I know why religions exist. I know why people are religious believers.

I'm also a UFO enthusiast and have been since 1957. While a youngster of 19, in the Air Force I read my first UFO book loaned to me by a USAF Captain. I never looked back and immersed myself in this still-ongoing mystery. My UFO "resume" would be considered impressive by anyone in the know. I know about UFOs.

So everytime I see a thread on this forum somehow attaching religion(s) to UFOs it irks me. I'm aware that the majority of ATS Aliens and UFOs forum members fall into the "gullible" category and can be seen in the replies that such threads attract. At no time has a single religion/UFO thread shown any common sense, logic or reason. But such threads appear regularly and sometimes grow. Scary!

Let's cut to the chase.

UFOs are an age-old mystery. At no time since the first recording of strange aerial objects, who knows when, has anyone every been able to explain what they are and where they originate. Perhaps, like the various nations on earth there is more than one source. But, again, this is strictly speculation on my part just as any other explanation by anyone anywhere is also speculation. Thousands or millions or books later, thousands or millions of lectures later, thousands of FOIA requests to government agencies later, many years of someone somewhere starting a "disclosure" (trust me it's not a new idea), NOTHING has ever shone a light on what UFOs are or where they originate. We are all still in the dark!

Aliens are another subject altogether. And since I don't accept any reports of such, I won't discuss them here.

Religion: religions are strictly mental processes. Religions exist only in the mind. There is nothing out here that can be used to give religions any credibility. All religions are man-made by strong-willed individuals to control weak-willed individuals. All religions exist because all believers are mentally-conditioned. We are all born atheists, that is, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Children are not born with belief systems, their minds are empty. It is only as a child grows that their minds are controlled by authority figures starting with the parents, then teachers, then other factors. A child is helpless against the onslaught of mental conditioning. Cults are the result of mental conditioning and if you think it's easy to break away from a cult just ask cult deprogrammers whether it's easy or difficult to do so. They will all answer "The latter."

Religions have nothing to do with UFOs. There are no angels, no devils, no satans, nothing to convince any person who employs common sense, logic and reason to accept such in the real world. They are strictly the product of religious leaders convincing their flocks. Churches and temples are excellent venues for controlling the masses. How many of you church or temple attenders tend to fall asleep as the preacher, priest, etc., drones on about salvation, sins, etc. While you are in your drowsy state, your weakened mind is being accessed and eveything that is unnatural is being strengthed in your mind.

Priests, ministers, rabbis, etc., are not really gainfully employed. They don't help produce a product. They exist only to control those who seem them as authority figures because the mentally-conditioned think these people can help them get closer to their gods, some try to do it through an intermediary named Jesus who is also a mythical figure. If your life depended on it you couldn't produce one iota of irrefutable evidence for his reality.

None of these religious "leaders" can actually claim that UFOs have anything to do with religious myths. There is just no connection because just as we, the secular, do not have an inkling of what UFOs are or where they originate, neither does religion. It doesn't matter what the Pope utters, he knows nothing! Before there were any religions, there may have been UFOs if one accepts ancient tales. Religion (the Judeo/Christian, an oxymoron if there ever was one!) started in the Mediterranean area and if it hadn't been for the conquerors starting with Columbus who used it against the natives' natural gods, the awful concept of christianity would have never gotten hold.

And now the gullibles are told that there is a connection between man-made religions and UFOs? UFOs are not man-made; religions are!

NO CONNECTION, folks!

BTW, I will not respond to replies pushing religion by biblical and other religious works' quotes. I want your unbiased opinion. Leave the bible, the qunran (or however it's spelled) and other such myths in the bookcase. Give me what you really think based on your life experience.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

You seem very angry/arrogant and cocksure of yourself, especially for someone who's probably never had an encounter in his life. I've had several [very close] encounters here in England and I can tell with extreme certainty that the UFO phenomenon and religion are indeed very closely interlinked. I've concluded that the primitive people turned the UFOs into gods and worshipped them at ancient stone sites like Stonehenge and Arbor Low. Please do yourself a favor and watch the documentary Ancient Aliens when you get a chance.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by The Shrike
Religion: religions are strictly mental processes. Religions exist only in the mind. There is nothing out here that can be used to give religions any credibility.

There is at least one connection between religion and UFOs.

If you say religions only exist in the mind, what does that have in common with UFOlogy?

Well, I don't know what you're getting at but UFOs do not exist in the mind, they're out there for all to see while religions exist only in the mind of the beholder and no one can see your religion unless you wear a religious symbol that gives it away. So, as I said and will always say, there is no connection between religions and UFOlogy except to those who see one.

Someone sees a fuzzy dot in the sky they don't understand, and they jump to the conclusion that it must be piloted by aliens?

That is the most popular assumption by those who don't think in-depth about the subject. I've always said that there is no evidence that UFOs are being piloted by beings or robots. They could be RPV (Remotely Piloted Vehicles). If there are some sort of beings we can't honestly describe them for no one really can back up their claims of alien interaction and who says that a being on the ground comes from a UFO? So not only are UFOs (what we call aerial craft) themselves a mystery but a bigger mystery is if they're piloted by beings or not. If they're RPVs, then the "pilots" must be somewhere and that is another problem for we don't know where that "somewhere" may be. It's all up in the air!

The UFO may be real, but the conclusion about who is piloting it is a mental construct, in that example with no basis in fact.

I just said that above but it is only one of two possibilities (maybe more).

Carl Sagan explains the connection between SOME UFOs and religion, in this video at around the 2 minute mark:

[snipped]

He really doesn't connect established religions with UFOs. Read my transcripto of what he said, below. And his talk was before the Raelians and they're not a religion but a cult.

Not all UFOs or people who study them have such a religious connection, but I think some people do.

Actually, by the threads and replies on this forum, it seems to be more widespread than we think.

Tell a religious person that an alternate religion may be the right one, and not the one they believe in and see what kind of reaction you get.

A religious person is mentally-conditioned so you might get the kind of looks that tell you that the person thinks you're nuts. One thing you will not get is an intelligent, balanced conversation. Trust me, I love to talk to people about why they're religious and I've only met a couple of individuals who appreciated my explanations as to why they are as religious as they are. But they're not going to switch.

Then tell a UFO fanatic that fuzzy dot in the sky they think it piloted by aliens, isn't.

If you approach the subject intelligently, you might break through any fences they've set up. It doesn't work with religion but it should with UFOs.

Both accusations can elicit similarly energetic denials reinforcing the nature of the belief as potentially more religious and emotional, as opposed to logical.

Religions do not depend on logic, common sense, or reason. Religions are illogical and depend on weak minds that do not fight back. UFOs, on the other hand are share more by all sorts of individuals and can be reached, once again, with an intelligent, informative conversation.

Below is what Carl Sagan says and, let me tell you, I don't agree with everything he says and he says it because there was no one around to challenge him with, you said it, logic, common sense and reason which he did not always employ.

From approx. 2:00 to 2:44
"...there's not a single verified or checked out report which is at all connectable with the possibility of extraterrestrial life. That doesn't say that I think extraterrestrial life is impossible. Quite the contrary, I think that many of the stars in the sky have planetary systems. We know enough now about the origin of life to make it appear likely that life arises naturally on the vast spokes of these planets. It's possible but by no means certain that life on many of these planets evolves into beings which are as advanced as we or more advanced. I don't see any reason why we can't imagine civilizations thousands or millions of years in advance or ourselves capable of technical feats that we can hardly imagine."

At approx. 4:00, after describing landed aliens, he continues with:
"...Now, this combination is something I've heard in another context; this isn't science, this is religion. What I suspect is happening is this: we live in a, in very unsettled times. It used to be possible to believe in a personal, benevolent, powerful, all-knowing god who ... individuals, who you could pray to. But now there's very few people who really believe that, I think. Science for good or for ill, has destroyed a lot of the traditional theologies. And, yet, people have the same needs to believe that they always did. Perhaps more so because of the times we live in."

Originally posted by The Shrike
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I appreciate what you and some of the others say. But the bottom line about religion is strictly to control others' behavior. Your brain, or mind, as a religious slave carries unnecessary baggage. All religions have a record of instilling fear in followers and most if not all wars have as the source, religion.

I also understand that it's too late for humans that mentally-conditioned to respect and obey religious dictates. Religious conditioned do not operate with their brain/mind 100%. I do because there isn't a shred of religious belief, nor any other belief, in my mind; I'm my own boss.

I don't accept the tales of ancients developing their religions because of contact with aliens. Modern interpretation of ancient events only please the modern.

I've had 6 UFO sightings, solid ones. All I saw was unknown objects having no connection to humans. I didn't see any gods. Nor did they awaken any religious desires in me. I live in a modern world and I adapt with it.

The Strike,

Religion and science are both meant to control, not just religion. I think you should stop trying to comprehend the extraterrestrial phenomenon with your basic human lineage of understanding -- thinking that extraterrestrial intelligence has to have evolved from bacteria and need metallic spaceships with rocket thrusters to travel across galaxies (this isn't even the truth about humans). Religion is dangerous in it's ability to separate and create conflict, but science is just as dangerous: science, like religion, is a control technology that has been intentionally designed (by the "reptilian" consciousness) to limit what you're allowed to believe is and isn't possible in this reality. Many people (probably you) believe that science stands for all things "rational & reasonable," and you blindly accept information that's published in mainstream scientific journals or academic textbooks without questioning any of it. Whereas religions are slaves to religious texts (such as how Christianity is a slave to the Bible), science is a slave to compelling evidence.

Let me turn the tables on you for a minute: go and show me evidence that the leaders of this world are really human. Go ahead. Well, have you met them? Have you examined their bodies and looked at their DNA under a microscope? Were you present when they were born? Absolutely not. So you need "evidence" to believe that aliens exist, but you don't need it to believe anything that Joe Scientific from Harvard's astronomy department says. How convenient! That's the ultimate case of selective reasoning.

I hope you finished this post realizing how little your ego serves you in discovering truth. Please take my advice and watch the documentary I mentioned above.

reply to post by The Shrike


Here take a look.........................................::::::::::::::: History is full of UFOs/alien contact. Even the immaculate conception WAS ALIEN!












[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a910b4b897d4.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10a0e9e5a455.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/74feed3e4947.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by hermantinkly

You seem very angry/arrogant and cocksure of yourself, especially for someone who's probably never had an encounter in his life. I've had several [very close] encounters here in England and I can tell with extreme certainty that the UFO phenomenon and religion are indeed very closely interlinked. I've concluded that the primitive people turned the UFOs into gods and worshipped them at ancient stone sites like Stonehenge and Arbor Low. Please do yourself a favor and watch the documentary Ancient Aliens when you get a chance.

It's not anger, just frustration that humans are in the mental state they're in and they don't recognize it. I am not arrogant, just confident whereas most aren't so they see it as arrogance. I'm sure that I do not affect those with full confidence in themselves. It is always the weaker-minded that feels challenged. However, I am cocksure of myself. I've achieved a lot through diligence.

I do not accept claims of alien encounters. Hearsay doesn't cut it with me. There are many things that are told that one may accept as having possibilities but anything connected with alleged aliens is not one of them. I do not agree with your assumptions and I have watched "Ancient Aliens" more times than I want to admit. It's totally boring and has not one shred of truth to it. It's a modern interpretation of times gone by for which there are no records to verify.

So, my question still stands, I guess.

Are you under the impression that unexplained aerial phenomenon in no way influenced religions that based much of their mythologies on astronomical phenomenon such as the planets, stars, and other celestial bodies?

To the OP...all the so called gods, including the so called god of the jews and cthulhu, if existed were nothing more then an alien life...that at the time of early man must of seemed like a god!

Take a look at this short video. And imagine what early man would of thought of 'it' when seeing the image in the sky. My bet is they would wrote about it in their 'holy books' as a sign of god or some other sort of divine 'thingy'.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
So, my question still stands, I guess.

Are you under the impression that unexplained aerial phenomenon in no way influenced religions that based much of their mythologies on astronomical phenomenon such as the planets, stars, and other celestial bodies?

I don't know how much clearer you want me to be. I do not in any way accept that UFOs had anything to do with established religions. Some religions, I'm sure ancient ones, were influenced by celestial objects such as the Egyptians were. But they also had other gods. The Aztecs, Incans, Mayans had their gods. They worshipped rattlesnakes! But you don't see any UFOs in their hieroglyphs. Egyptians don't show UFOs in their hieroglyphs either, although some claim they can see them (and helicopters, too!).

Religions grew out of fear initiated by those who saw themselves as leaders and they made up mumbo jumbo and scared the pants of those who could not challenge the leader for position.

My only concern with connecting UFOs/Aliens to religion is people who anoint these creatures as Gods and Saviors simply because they equate technological superiority to spiritual superiority.

As most of you can tell there is absolutely no possibility for rational, intelligent nor fair debate allowed in this thread; as the OP has given his completely biased opinion, but upon defining the terms in which he will debate you may not use the tools which he knows can and most likely will debunk his personal opinion.
Also he has demanded that in order to debate you must use an un-biased personal perspective; while this may sound good it is actually impossible to do as any personal perspective will automatically be biased by a persons beliefs and experiences ,and how they apply by their personal beliefs.

It truly is illogical to expect any kind of debate in which the terms of debate are to either agree with the OP or leave the debate because any possible fact you may use is disallowed into the debate.

IMO, Nice try OP; but utter fail, I would however urge you to try again with a little more leeway in the facts that you would allow for debate.

I personally disagree with you as even in Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other antiquated mythology's, beings believed to be from other places other than this earth and using a means of transportation that appears to be beyond the believed type of transport for those times, were described and worshiped as gods and demons; therefore ufo's, and aliens due in fact; seem to have connections to religions; no matter the intended use of that religion.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
So, my question still stands, I guess.

Are you under the impression that unexplained aerial phenomenon in no way influenced religions that based much of their mythologies on astronomical phenomenon such as the planets, stars, and other celestial bodies?

I'm sure ancient ones, were influenced by celestial objects such as the Egyptians were.

Bingo.

These ancient people had no way of understanding what those celestial objects were, why they moved the way they did, or if they were intelligent or not.

Hence, these celestial objects were in fact UFOs to those ancient people, as they could not identify what they actually were.

Evidence that Religions and Unidentified Flying Objects ARE linked.

Good day, sir.

Originally posted by DarthChrisious
My only concern with connecting UFOs/Aliens to religion is people who anoint these creatures as Gods and Saviors simply because they equate technological superiority to spiritual superiority.

And here is an example of that type of thinking, from another thread which was one of my complaints in my OP: "The proof of Aliens is nothing new, go back to ancient times and look at the art and read the scriptures.
They all depict aliens and UFOs."

No they do not! Nowhere in the jewish bible nor in the new testament can you find any mention of aliens and UFOs. This is strictly modern interpretation by those who have some kind of mental block to common sense and logic.

Additionally, while some art seems to include images of what we call UFOs, we don't know what the artists were thinking about as they painted. And none of them left any written records as to why they put certain images on their paintings which were mostly religious in nature. So, it's accepted my mainstream thinkers that those UFOs are religious symbols but not actual representations of nuts-and-bolts craft.

But, since not everything is written in stone, there are some v-e-r-y interesting cave drawings that show more of nuts-and-bolts craft than one could be comfortable with. Those are mysteries but one cannot run amock with modern interpretations either.

reply to post by Hemlocks

Thanks for the pics I was looking for some of those.

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by DarthChrisious
My only concern with connecting UFOs/Aliens to religion is people who anoint these creatures as Gods and Saviors simply because they equate technological superiority to spiritual superiority.

And here is an example of that type of thinking, from another thread which was one of my complaints in my OP: "The proof of Aliens is nothing new, go back to ancient times and look at the art and read the scriptures.
They all depict aliens and UFOs."

No they do not! Nowhere in the jewish bible nor in the new testament can you find any mention of aliens and UFOs. This is strictly modern interpretation by those who have some kind of mental block to common sense and logic.

Additionally, while some art seems to include images of what we call UFOs, we don't know what the artists were thinking about as they painted. And none of them left any written records as to why they put certain images on their paintings which were mostly religious in nature. So, it's accepted my mainstream thinkers that those UFOs are religious symbols but not actual representations of nuts-and-bolts craft.

But, since not everything is written in stone, there are some v-e-r-y interesting cave drawings that show more of nuts-and-bolts craft than one could be comfortable with. Those are mysteries but one cannot run amock with modern interpretations either.

How convenient of you to type something like that and ignore my last post to you. Maybe you should delve into the works of late philosopher Bertrand Russell. I like this quote from him: "the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

[edit on 15-12-2009 by hermantinkly]