UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

I'll admit right off the bat I'm an atheist. But not just an atheist, I'm an educated atheist and my copy of the bible would be considered a researcher's treasure for it's full of notes garnered over many years. I know why religions exist. I know why people are religious believers.

I'm also a UFO enthusiast and have been since 1957. While a youngster of 19, in the Air Force I read my first UFO book loaned to me by a USAF Captain. I never looked back and immersed myself in this still-ongoing mystery. My UFO "resume" would be considered impressive by anyone in the know. I know about UFOs.

So everytime I see a thread on this forum somehow attaching religion(s) to UFOs it irks me. I'm aware that the majority of ATS Aliens and UFOs forum members fall into the "gullible" category and can be seen in the replies that such threads attract. At no time has a single religion/UFO thread shown any common sense, logic or reason. But such threads appear regularly and sometimes grow. Scary!

Let's cut to the chase.

UFOs are an age-old mystery. At no time since the first recording of strange aerial objects, who knows when, has anyone every been able to explain what they are and where they originate. Perhaps, like the various nations on earth there is more than one source. But, again, this is strictly speculation on my part just as any other explanation by anyone anywhere is also speculation. Thousands or millions or books later, thousands or millions of lectures later, thousands of FOIA requests to government agencies later, many years of someone somewhere starting a "disclosure" (trust me it's not a new idea), NOTHING has ever shone a light on what UFOs are or where they originate. We are all still in the dark!

Aliens are another subject altogether. And since I don't accept any reports of such, I won't discuss them here.

Religion: religions are strictly mental processes. Religions exist only in the mind. There is nothing out here that can be used to give religions any credibility. All religions are man-made by strong-willed individuals to control weak-willed individuals. All religions exist because all believers are mentally-conditioned. We are all born atheists, that is, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Children are not born with belief systems, their minds are empty. It is only as a child grows that their minds are controlled by authority figures starting with the parents, then teachers, then other factors. A child is helpless against the onslaught of mental conditioning. Cults are the result of mental conditioning and if you think it's easy to break away from a cult just ask cult deprogrammers whether it's easy or difficult to do so. They will all answer "The latter."

Religions have nothing to do with UFOs. There are no angels, no devils, no satans, nothing to convince any person who employs common sense, logic and reason to accept such in the real world. They are strictly the product of religious leaders convincing their flocks. Churches and temples are excellent venues for controlling the masses. How many of you church or temple attenders tend to fall asleep as the preacher, priest, etc., drones on about salvation, sins, etc. While you are in your drowsy state, your weakened mind is being accessed and eveything that is unnatural is being strengthed in your mind.

Priests, ministers, rabbis, etc., are not really gainfully employed. They don't help produce a product. They exist only to control those who seem them as authority figures because the mentally-conditioned think these people can help them get closer to their gods, some try to do it through an intermediary named Jesus who is also a mythical figure. If your life depended on it you couldn't produce one iota of irrefutable evidence for his reality.

None of these religious "leaders" can actually claim that UFOs have anything to do with religious myths. There is just no connection because just as we, the secular, do not have an inkling of what UFOs are or where they originate, neither does religion. It doesn't matter what the Pope utters, he knows nothing! Before there were any religions, there may have been UFOs if one accepts ancient tales. Religion (the Judeo/Christian, an oxymoron if there ever was one!) started in the Mediterranean area and if it hadn't been for the conquerors starting with Columbus who used it against the natives' natural gods, the awful concept of christianity would have never gotten hold.

And now the gullibles are told that there is a connection between man-made religions and UFOs? UFOs are not man-made; religions are!

NO CONNECTION, folks!

BTW, I will not respond to replies pushing religion by biblical and other religious works' quotes. I want your unbiased opinion. Leave the bible, the qunran (or however it's spelled) and other such myths in the bookcase. Give me what you really think based on your life experience.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

Pfff... And daylight has no connection with the sun I suppose, huh?

I grew up with no preconceived notions of anything. My parents never forced any beliefs on me.

I was skeptical about the traditional sense of God, in that there is a guy watching us, chilling in a comfy chair.

Then I looked to the heart of religion, or rather spirituality and the various world views of ancient cultures... and you mean to tell me you see absolutely NO similarities between Gods from the sky, and UFOs?

Man, maybe not a connection with religion as a mental construct... but there is a definite connection with the real stories of humans past. Or 'mythologies', whatever you want to call them.

It seems like you kinda came on the scene a little late.

Watch this video of Dr. Quantum talking about flatland, I think it is important for you to have a lesson in perspective and the way language influences perspective(also notice how RELIGIOUS it is):



Also, this is a good quote from the leader of the Nation of Islam that wikipedia quotes:

The Mother Plane and Ezekiel's Wheel

Elijah Muhammad taught his followers about a Mother Plane or Wheel, a UFO that was seen and described in the visions of the prophet Ezekiel in the Book of Ezekiel, in the Hebrew Bible.

'Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the earth beside the living creatures, one for each of the four of them. As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction: their appearance was like the gleaming of beryl. And the four had the same likeness, their appearance and construction being as it were a wheel within a wheel. When they went, they went in any of their four directions without turning as they went. And their rims were tall and awesome, and the rims of all four were full of eyes all around.'
—Book of Ezekiel Chapter 1:15-18, Bible, English Standard Version

Louis Farrakhan, commenting on his teacher's description said the following:

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad told us of a giant Mother Plane that is made like the universe, spheres within spheres. White people call them unidentified flying objects (UFOs). Ezekiel, in the Old Testament, saw a wheel that looked like a cloud by day but a pillar of fire by night. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that that wheel was built on the island of Nippon, which is now called Japan, by some of the Original scientists. It took $15 billion in gold at that time to build it. It is made of the toughest steel. America does not yet know the composition of the steel used to make an instrument like it. It is a circular plane, and the Bible says that it never makes turns. Because of its circular nature it can stop and travel in all directions at speeds of thousands of miles per hour. He said there are 1,500 small wheels in this Mother Wheel, which is a half mile by a half mile (800 m by 800 m). This Mother Wheel is like a small human-built planet. Each one of these small planes carry three bombs.

This is from the top of my head...

edit: wiki

[edit on 14-12-2009 by beebs]

reply to post by The Shrike


Let's wait till the UFOs reveal themselves(if they ever will), until then, we can't rule out anything.

I beg to differ. Your rant is nothing more than opinion that has no evidence to back it up whatsoever. We can ALL agree that religions have been historically distorted over time and used by men for power. That doesn't mean they were all created that way. There IS talk of UFOs and even SPACE WARS in the Quran.

First, I must clarify that as claimed in the Bible, devils and demons are considered “fallen angels” in the Islamic faith, including Lucifer. This means that some angels / demons are energy beings that were created before humans or even extra-dimensional beings (known as Jinns) ([15:27] As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire), while others might be simply ET made of flesh. Note that the word genie is derived from “jinn”. One must also note that in the Qur'an, the first person “WE” is used to describe the Angel's and God working as a team, in order to give the angels credit. When God alone is doing the task, he speaks in the first person as “I”, not “we”. (see [20:12-15] as an example). From this we confer that any time the word “we” is used in first person (as is the case 99% of the time throughout the book), it denotes the angels doing the work in God's accord.


Note that I am using Rashad Khalifa's translation because it fits best with modern English, but I will give multiple translations of the specific verses in question. Khalifa refers to the items blasted in this war as “projectiles”, but but the literal translation specifically refers to these projectiles as ENERGY weapons (flame), along with metals in some instances. Here's the first example:

[15:16] We placed galaxies in the sky, and adorned it for the beholders.

[15:17] And we guarded it against every rejected devil.

[15:18] If any of them sneaks around to listen, a mighty projectile will chase him back.
[15:19] As for the earth, we constructed it, and placed on it stabilizers, and we grew on it a perfect balance of everything.

Other translations of the verses in question (15:17-18)

015:017 Khan And We have guarded it (near heaven) from every outcast Shaitan (devil).

015:017 Maulana And We guard it against every accursed devil,

015:017 Pickthal And We have guarded it from every outcast devil,

015:017 Rashad And we guarded it against every rejected devil.

015:017 Sarwar We have protected them from every condemned devil,

015:017 Shakir And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

015:017 Sherali And WE have guarded it against the intrusion of every rejected Satan.

015:017 Yusufali And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil:

But most importantly:

015:018 Khan Except him (devil) that gains hearing by stealing, he is pursued by a clear flaming fire.

015:018 Maulana But he who steals a hearing; so there follows him a visible flame.

015:018 Pickthal Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue.

015:018 Rashad If any of them sneaks around to listen, a mighty projectile will chase him back.

015:018 Sarwar except for those who stealthily try to listen to the heavens, but who are chased away by a bright flame.

015:018 Shakir But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

015:018 Sherali But if anyone hears stealthily something of revelation and distorts it, there pursues him a bright flame.

015:018 Yusufali But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).


Clearly we see that God and the angels claim to have designed the earth, and furthermore they protect outer space from ET or energy-being intruders. Here's another example:


[37:6] We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.

[37:7] We guarded it from every evil devil.

[37:8] They cannot spy on the High Society; they get bombarded from every side.

[37:9] They have been condemned; they have incurred an eternal retribution.

[37:10] If any of them ventures to charge the outer limits, he gets struck with a fierce projectile.

More translations of the verses in question:

037:008 Khan They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side.

037:008 Maulana They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are reproached from every side,

037:008 Pickthal They cannot listen to the Highest Chiefs for they are pelted from every side,

037:008 Rashad They cannot spy on the High Society; they get bombarded from every side.

037:008 Sarwar The devils cannot hear those high above. They would be struck from all sides

037:008 Shakir They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side,

037:008 Sherali They cannot listen to anything from the Exalted Assembly of angels - and they are pelted from every side,

037:008 Yusufali (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,

And more importantly:

037:010 Khan Except such as snatch away something by stealing and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.

037:010 Maulana Except him who snatches away but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame.

037:010 Pickthal Save him who snatcheth a fragment, and there pursueth him a piercing flame.

037:010 Rashad If any of them ventures to charge the outer limits, he gets struck with a fierce projectile.

037:010 Sarwar Some of them who stealthily steal words from the heavens are pursued by a glistening flame.

037:010 Shakir Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame.

037:010 Sherali But if any of them snatches away something by stealth, he is pursued by a piecing flame.

037:010 Yusufali Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.


It's clear to see, these evil alien beings have a habit of spying on the Angels, and they get shot at and destroyed. The angels are very proud of this war, for it is described many more times.

[55:33] O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.

[55:34] Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?

[55:35] You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.

And the other translations:

055:035 Khan There will be sent against you both, smokeless flames of fire and (molten) brass, and you will not be able to defend yourselves.

055:035 Maulana The flames of fire and sparks of brass will be sent upon you, then you will not be able to defend yourselves.

055:035 Pickthal There will be sent, against you both, heat of fire and flash of brass, and ye will not escape.

055:035 Rashad You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.

055:035 Sarwar Flames of fire and molten brass will be released against you and you will not be able to protect yourselves.

055:035 Shakir The flames of fire and smoke will be sent on you two, then you will not be able to defend yourselves.

055:035 Sherali There shall be sent against you a flame of fire, and molten copper; and you shall not be able to help yourselves.

055:035 Yusufali On you will be sent (O ye evil ones twain!) a flame of fire (to burn) and a smoke (to choke): no defence will ye have:

Again, it is clear to see that the angels are very PROUD of their war, and confident that they will be the victors in battle. Also it's important to note that “brass” does not literally mean brass. Just as the book says humans are made from “mud” to denote that they are made from earthly materials, and jinns are made from “fire”, to denote energy. Much of the Qur'an is explained allegorically because people of that time frame would not have been able to grasp concepts too far over their heads. In the same way, we see stars refered to as “lamps” in this next instance:

[67:3] He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?

[67:4] Look again and again; your eyes will come back stumped and conquered.

[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

And of course, more translations:

067:005 Maulana And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We make them means of conjectures for the devils, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

067:005 Sarwar We have decked the lowest heavens with torches. With these torches We have stoned the devils and We have prepared for them the torment of hell.

067:005 Shakir And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

067:005 Sherali And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.

067:005 Yusufali And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire

Clearly we know that stars are energy, and they claim to use these “lamps” also for protection. That means they are using energy weapons.


This next example is from a chapter entitled “Jinns”, where in the first part of the chapter it is actually speaking from the perspective of the jinns. Also interesting in this chapter is the claim that humans seek power through jinns (known as white or black magick). Remember, this is supposedly the jinns saying this:


[72:6] " `Human beings used to seek power through jinn beings, but they only afflicted them with a lot of adversity.

[72:7] " `They thought, just like you thought, that GOD would not send another (messenger).

[72:8] " `We touched the heaven and found it filled with formidable guards and projectiles.

[72:9] " `We used to sit there in order to spy. Anyone who listens is pursued by a powerful projectile.


Of course, further translations of 72:8

072:008 Khan 'And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

072:008 Maulana And we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flames:

072:008 Pickthal And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.

072:008 Rashad " `We touched the heaven and found it filled with formidable guards and projectiles.

072:008 Sarwar "We went near the heavens but found it to be full of strong guards and shooting flames.

072:008 Shakir And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars.

072:008 Sherali `And we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and shooting stars,

072:008 Yusufali 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.

And 72:9

072:009 Khan 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.

072:009 Maulana And we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing. But he who tries to listen now finds a flame lying in wait for him:

072:009 Pickthal And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;

072:009 Rashad " `We used to sit there in order to spy. Anyone who listens is pursued by a powerful projectile.

072:009 Sarwar We used to sit near by and try to listen to the heavens, but shooting flames now await those who try to do that.

072:009 Shakir And that we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing, but he who would (try to) listen now would find a flame lying in wait for him:

reply to post by The Shrike

UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

Well written piece and very convincing if personal opinions were the gold standard of proof.

In short, I agree with some of your points but not the absolute, undeniable separation of religion and UFOs. You make a good argument but it is still just that. And I won't dispute anything you've said because I am not nearly smart enough to have all the answers.

My comment here is in recognition of your logic and wordsmithing. Beyond that, I will, respectfully, disagree that anything in either faith or aerial phenomenon, is so set in stone.




[edit on 14-12-2009 by redoubt]

Not to mention, there is actually a mathematical / numerical CODE in the Quran, that proves it was not written by a man. Read ALL OF this and tell me that it was just written by a man wanting power, considering he directed ALL worship to God alone, not him or any body else. It's fine if you still want to believe there is no God.. Truthfully I was an atheist until I read about all this, and I became a believer. But you have to at least admit that the Quran must have been written using a computer..... In the year ~610 AD!

The people in the Middle-East were going by a LUNAR calandar during the time of Muhammad (about 350 days a year).

But the word "DAYS" is said 365 times in the Quran.

The word "Day" is said 30 times.

The word "month" is said 12 times.

The word "sea" is said 71/29 in proportion to the word "land", THE EXACT SAME RATIO OF SEA TO LAND..

The words "satan" (shaytan) & "angel" (malak), each occur 88 times.

The words "this world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (ahirah), each occur 115 times.

There are numerous scientific evidences not know at that time in the Quran, it even describes the universe as EXPANDING.

But I haven't even touched the REAL miracle: how the prime # 19 is coded into the Quran..

The first verse, i.e., the opening statement "Bismillahirrahmanirrahim", shortly "Basmalah," consists of 19 Arabic letters.

The first word of Basmalah, Ism (name), withouth conraction, occurs in the Quran 19 times.

The second word of Basmalah, Allah (God) occurs 2698 times, or 19x142.

The third word of Basmalah, Rahman (Gracious) occurs 57 times, or 19x3.

The fourth word of Basmalah, Rahim (Merciful) occurs 114 times, or 19x6.

Although this phenomenon (the opening statement consists of 19 letters, and each word occurs in multiple of 19) represents a minute portion of the code, it was described by Martin Gardner in the Scientific American as "ingenious" (September, 1981, p. 22-24)

The multiplication factors of the words of the Basmalah (1+142+3+6) add up to 152 or 19x8.

The Quran consists of 114 chapters, which is 19x6.

The total number of verses in the Quran including all unnumbered Basmalahs is 6346, or 19x334. If you add the digits of that number, 6+3+4+6 equals 19.

The Basmalah occurs 114 times, (despite its conspicuous absence from chapter 9, it occurs twice in chapter 27) and 114 is 19x6.

From the missing Basmalah of chapter 9 to the extra Basmalah of chapter 27, there are precisely 19 chapters.

The occurrence of the extra Basmalah is in 27:30. The number of the chapter and the verse add up to 57, or 19x3.

The total numbers of verses where the word "Allah" (God) occurs, add up to 118123, and is 19x6217.

The total occurrences of the word Allah (God) in all the verses whose numbers are multiples of 19 is 133, or 19x7.

The key commandment: "You shall devote your worship to God alone" (in Arabic "Wahdahu") occurs in 7:70; 39:45; 40:12,84; and 60:4. The total of these numbers adds up to 361, or 19x19.

The Quran is characterized by a unique phenomenon that is not found in any other book: 29 chapters are prefixed with "Quranic Initials" which remained mysterious for 1406 years. With the discovery of the code 19, we realized their major role in the Quran's mathematical structure. The initials occur in their respective chapters in multiples of 19. For example, Chapter 19 has five letters in its beginning, K.H.Y.A'.SS., and the total occurrence of these letters in this chapter is 798, or 19x42.

To witness the details of the miracle of these initials, a short chapter which begins with one initial, letter "Q", will be a good example. The frequency of "Q" in chapter 50 is 57, or 19x3. The letter "Q" occurs in the other Q-initialed chapter, i.e., chapter 42, exactly the same number of times, 57. The total occurrence of the letter "Q" in the two Q-initialed chapters is 114, which equals the number of chapters in the Quran. The description of the Quran as "Majid" (Glorious) is correlated with the frequency of occurrence of the letter "Q" in each of the Q-initialed chapters. The word "Majid" has a gematrical value of 57. Chapter 42 consists of 53 verses, and 42+53 is 95, or 19x5. Chapter 50 consists of 45 verses, and 50+45 is 95, or 19x5.

The Quran mentions 30 different cardinal numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.

In addition to 30 cardinal numbers, the Quran contains 8 fractions: 1/10, 1/8, 1/6, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3. Thus, the Quran contains 38 (19x2) different numbers. The total of fractions is approximately 2.

If we write down the number of each verse in the Quran, one next to the other, preceded by the number of verses in each chapter, the resulting long number consists of 12692 digits (19x668). Additionally, the huge number itself is also a multiple of 19.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by seattletruth]

Also, here's a book written on UFOs in the Quran, if you care to learn more...

www.scribd.com...


Obviously you have your head bent on the fact that because SOME religions were created to give power (*cough*romancatholics*cough*), that doesn't mean all were created that way, initially. Of course men will use any excuse to abuse power. That is human nature. Men will always be evil, and just because God doesn't immediately spite them, doesn't mean he isn't watching it all.

Actually, this explains WHY there are so many religions from the same God: religions veer way off course and every now and then He sends down another messenger to bring scriptures for the people and set them back on track.



But Islam is not the only religion talking about UFOs, can you not see how the Book of Enoch was talking about aliens? That book was not INCLUDED in the Bible because they were scared of it. We are lucky to even have copies today, they tried to burn it off the face of the earth.

Really I think the OP just repeats a lot of words and says "OK theres no link.. because there's no link". Theres no logic behind what you state, just statements..

Refute the evidence and arguments I have presented, because your argument consisted of nothing of substance.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by seattletruth]

Religion is a result of how past civilizations interpreted the UFO phenomenon. They didn't understand it from the scientific perspective. They had no other way to explain what they were witnessing so naturally they turned it into something to be worshiped.

If you read through the Bible and replace every instance of "angel" or "demon" with extra-terrestrial, then replace every instance of "heaven" with starship or spacecraft, it starts to make more sense. Even the creation story and the immaculate conception can be attributed to genetic engineering and artificial insemination.

I would like to think our civilization knows better now and if there ever is Disclosure, I would hope they don't turn it into another religion.

reply to post by The Shrike


Just because the religious leaders today can't make a connection between the Star of Bethlehem and a UFO doesn't it mean there wasn't a connection in the myth.

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by The Shrike

 

UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

Well written piece and very convincing if personal opinions were the gold standard of proof.

In short, I agree with some of your points but not the absolute, undeniable separation of religion and UFOs. You make a good argument but it is still just that. And I won't dispute anything you've said because I am not nearly smart enough to have all the answers.

My comment here is in recognition of your logic and wordsmithing. Beyond that, I will, respectfully, disagree that anything in either faith or aerial phenomenon, is so set in stone.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by redoubt]

Well put, and I appreciate your candor. Also, thanks for the compliments. I don't have all of the answers either. But the knowledge I've gained in my 71 years allows me to sound off with a certain "authority." I know what I said is not everyone's cup of tea. It's mine.

Who can say for certain about the past? As for the future, if applicable, Contact with any beings who are, to say the least, worth peeing on if their butts were on fire would be unequivocally against any religious interpretation or implementation of their presence. It would (or will?) be purely about respect, honesty, no slaves or masters etc. The truly civilized only need apply, and that goes equally for we terrestrial recipients of new knowledge and methods (if ever applicable).

Originally posted by The Shrike
And now the gullibles are told that there is a connection between man-made religions and UFOs? UFOs are not man-made; religions are!

NO CONNECTION, folks!

I admire your candor and career TS.

But some of us have spent their lives studying histories and understanding dead languages so we can understand the stories they tell...
...at least I have.

I am not religious, I belong to and worship with no group of devotees and have not been into a church building other than for weddings and funerals for over thirty years.

The ancients all told the same stories of craft and beings and strange behaviour...
...and religions have treasured these documents, commenting and debating their meaning...
...and the world should be grateful because instead of having them rot in museums, they kept them alive and current...
...so that now that the world is facing the return of these entities we can be ready for them this time.

You as a militery man understand the important of reconnaissance and code and preserving secrets...
...the world religions have mostly unknowing provided this service.

They did not always understand the message they were transmitting...
...they did not always use the same words to describe these craft and entities...
...but call them aliens, watchers, fallen angels, nephilim, demons or devils...
...they all the describe the same reality that the race of men have encountered before...
...and if we believe the predictions, this time it will be the last.

reply to post by troubleshooter


I appreciate what you and some of the others say. But the bottom line about religion is strictly to control others' behavior. Your brain, or mind, as a religious slave carries unnecessary baggage. All religions have a record of instilling fear in followers and most if not all wars have as the source, religion.

I also understand that it's too late for humans that mentally-conditioned to respect and obey religious dictates. Religious conditioned do not operate with their brain/mind 100%. I do because there isn't a shred of religious belief, nor any other belief, in my mind; I'm my own boss.

I don't accept the tales of ancients developing their religions because of contact with aliens. Modern interpretation of ancient events only please the modern.

I've had 6 UFO sightings, solid ones. All I saw was unknown objects having no connection to humans. I didn't see any gods. Nor did they awaken any religious desires in me. I live in a modern world and I adapt with it.

Interesting.

So, since you cannot tell me what a UFO is..

You feel comfortable telling me that UFOs played ZERO part in the imaginations or formulations of any of the Religions of the world?

reply to post by The Shrike


So that you all don't think I'm an irascible old man, let me offer you a little levity to take the sting off my OP (to those who it stung!

And no this did not come from The Nanny, although she would have loved it!

[The Teacher asked young Patrick Murphy: "What do you do at Christmas time?

Patrick addressed the class: "Well Ms. Jones, me and my twelve brothers and sisters go to midnight mass and we sing hymns; then we come home very late and we put mince pies by the back door and hang up our stockings. Then all excited, we go to bed and wait for Father Christmas to come with all our toys."

"Very nice Patrick," she said. "Now Jimmy Brown, what do you do at Christmas?"

"Well, Ms. Jones, me and my sister also go to church with Mom and Dad and we sing carols and we get home ever so late. We put cookies and milk by the chimney and we hang up our stockings. We hardly sleep, waiting for Santa Claus to bring our presents."

Realizing there was a Jewish boy in the class and not wanting to leave him out of the discussion, she asked,
"Now, Isaac Cohen, what do you do at Christmas?"

Isaac said, "Well, it's the same thing every year. Dad comes home from the office. We all pile into the Rolls Royce; then we drive to Dad's toy factory. When we get inside, we look at all the empty shelves and begin to sing: 'What A. Friend We Have In Jesus.' Then we all go to the Bahamas."]

Originally posted by The Shrike
I'll admit right off the bat I'm an atheist. But not just an atheist, I'm an educated atheist and my copy of the bible would be considered a researcher's treasure for it's full of notes garnered over many years.

....

BTW, I will not respond to replies pushing religion by biblical and other religious works' quotes. I want your unbiased opinion. Leave the bible, the qunran (or however it's spelled) and other such myths in the bookcase. Give me what you really think based on your life experience.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

LOL... Boy you are hilarious.

You claim to be a an "EDUCATED atheist", (with the underline for added emphasis, on your part), but you can't even spell the Quran, with at least ONE of its MANY accepted western spelling? Quran, Qur'an, Koran, whatever, but you have admitted to your ignorance.

Then it's even funnier how you claim that you will NOT respond to anybody who refutes your baseless claims with the only evidence that could possibly used to refute it: evidence from religious scriptures.

How could somebody refute your claims that there is no connection to UFO in religion, if you don't want people quoting the only things that make up religion: the books.

People's personal anecdotes have nothing to do with religious history. In other words, you will only respond to people that agree with your baseless opinions.

I don't expect you to respond to any of my posts, even though I know you read them.

And BTW, I had been an atheist my ENTIRE life, saying the exact same things as you, until I found about the numerical code in the Quran, and the scientific proofs therein. I thought the idea of God was completely ridiculous until recently, so I don't think I quite fit your stereotype of "mentally conditioned by a cult mentality".

And your argument that Christianity only took hold because of Columbus is rediculous. We can both agree that Christianity was mostly made up about 300 years after his death, when the Nicene doctrine was fabricated... But obviously your religious history is lacking.

Judaism had fallen to the same mistake of making up their own religious teachings to supercede the Torah. And 200 years after Muhammad died, the Muslims made the same mistake again, creating new fabrications and foresaking the scriptures given to them. That doesn't undermine the fact that both Judaism, Christianity, and Islam ALL received scriptures from sources other than power hungry men.

Sorry to site evidence contrary to your paradigm, sir. I don't think you're quite as educated as you think.



[edit on 14-12-2009 by seattletruth]

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
Interesting.

So, since you cannot tell me what a UFO is..

You feel comfortable telling me that UFOs played ZERO part in the imaginations or formulations of any of the Religions of the world?

Seeing the effects that world religions have had on humans since their creations, and by that I mean primarily mind control and wars, I have no doubt that UFOs did not have any connection with their creations. In pre-historic times, they warred. But it was probably mostly over territory and food. As an example: no one was creating fatwas (To make somebody the subject of a fatwa, especially a ban or death) because they were concerned with survavility, not fearing any gods.

This bit of UFOs having affected religions is a modern thing. There is no record, to my knowledge, that any religion was formed to obey any aliens and there are no religions with UFOs on their altars. Interpretation is not necessarily correct.

It's like the situtation with Nostradamus. There is no irrefutable evidence that he prophesied about the future but modern interpretations have convinced millions that he did. Same thing with Edgar Cayce. It's always the interpretation that convinces. Not logic.



[edit on 14-12-2009 by The Shrike]

Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
Interesting.

So, since you cannot tell me what a UFO is..

You feel comfortable telling me that UFOs played ZERO part in the imaginations or formulations of any of the Religions of the world?

Seeing the effects that world religions have had on humans since their creations, and by that I mean primarily mind control and wars, I have no doubt that UFOs did not have any connection with their creations. In pre-historic times, they warred. But it was probably mostly over territory and food. As an exampled: no one was creating fatwas (To make somebody the subject of a fatwa, especially a ban or death) because they were concerned with survavility, not fearing any gods.

This bit of UFOs having affected religions is a modern thing. There is no record, to my knowledge, that any religion was formed to obey any aliens and there are no religions with UFOs on their altars. Interpretation is not necessarily correct.

It's like the situtation with Nostradamus. There is no irrefutable evidence that he prophesied about the future but modern interpretations have convinced millions that he did. Same thing with Edgar Cayce. It's always the interpretation that convinces. Not logic.

Im not talking about Aliens, Spacecraft, or Stargates. I am talking about Unidentified Flying Objects. Objects that Man has been unable to identify.

So, with this clarification in mind, and the idea that many religions base their beliefs on Astrological Phenomenon, are you still prepared to tell me that no UFOs have ever influenced any religious mythology?

Originally posted by The Shrike
Religion: religions are strictly mental processes. Religions exist only in the mind. There is nothing out here that can be used to give religions any credibility.

There is at least one connection between religion and UFOs.

If you say religions only exist in the mind, what does that have in common with UFOlogy?

Someone sees a fuzzy dot in the sky they don't understand, and they jump to the conclusion that it must be piloted by aliens?

The UFO may be real, but the conclusion about who is piloting it is a mental construct, in that example with no basis in fact.

Carl Sagan explains the connection between SOME UFOs and religion, in this video at around the 2 minute mark:



Not all UFOs or people who study them have such a religious connection, but I think some people do.

Tell a religious person that an alternate religion may be the right one, and not the one they believe in and see what kind of reaction you get.

Then tell a UFO fanatic that fuzzy dot in the sky they think it piloted by aliens, isn't.

Both accusations can elicit similarly energetic denials reinforcing the nature of the belief as potentially more religious and emotional, as opposed to logical.