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UFOs and religion have no connection, none!

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posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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They have plenty of connection.

These quotes from the bible are not in any particular order. You may not believe in the bible, but these sound like early man trying to explain alien phenomenon


066:015 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his
chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and
his rebuke with flames of fire.

007:009 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of
days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of
his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery
flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

001:007 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and
his ministers a flame of fire.

019:012 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many
crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he
himself.

019:014 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white
horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

020:001 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of
the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

020:011 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from
whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was
found no place for them.

022:008 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had
heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the
angel which shewed me these things.

083:013 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the
wind.

001:004 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north,
a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness
was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of
amber, out of the midst of the fire.
001:005 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living
creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the
likeness of a man.
001:006 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.




posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by Pappa_Bear
As most of you can tell there is absolutely no possibility for rational, intelligent nor fair debate allowed in this thread; as the OP has given his completely biased opinion, but upon defining the terms in which he will debate you may not use the tools which he knows can and most likely will debunk his personal opinion.


Don't speak for others, speak for yourself! If you have a rational, intelligent reply I'll be more than glad to read it. All I ask is that you don't flood the thread with religious quotes as seattletruth did with his Rashad Khalifa's crap. I'm interested in what you think, not someone else's version. You can say you were influenced by this or that, just don't publish the bible or any other religious work here.


Also he has demanded that in order to debate you must use an un-biased personal perspective; while this may sound good it is actually impossible to do as any personal perspective will automatically be biased by a persons beliefs and experiences ,and how they apply by their personal beliefs.


Who are you talking to? Talk to me, it's my thread! Unbiased is just that, your thoughts. When I reply to a post or another's reply, I use my knowledge of the subject or I don't bother. I'll quote others if I agree with what they say and/or they say it better than I could. But I don't quote silly sources or willy nilly. I don't have beliefs so you'll never see any in my posts or replies. I express myself with knowledge, or I don't join in.

[quote It truly is illogical to expect any kind of debate in which the terms of debate are to either agree with the OP or leave the debate because any possible fact you may use is disallowed into the debate.

Just don't run at the mouth about religious beliefs because they have nothing to do with UFOs and nothing you or anyone says is going to convince me since neither you nor anyone else is going to express themselves from experience. Religious guesses are not reliable and serve no purpose except to satisfy personal beliefs.


IMO, Nice try OP; but utter fail, I would however urge you to try again with a little more leeway in the facts that you would allow for debate.


I stated how I felt about the situation that goes on not only at ATS Aliens and UFOs but on all UFO forums on the Internet. While I would like replies, I don't want proselytizing. Tell me how you feel about the thread's title but don't sell religion. That's all I ask.


I personally disagree with you as even in Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other antiquated mythology's, beings believed to be from other places other than this earth and using a means of transportation that appears to be beyond the believed type of transport for those times, were described and worshiped as gods and demons; therefore ufo's, and aliens due in fact; seem to have connections to religions; no matter the intended use of that religion.


If you could provide evidence of what you state that would be a revelation.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by SevenThunders

Originally posted by The Shrike
UFOs and religion have no connection, none!


Could you tell that to the aliens then, because they seem absolutely obsessed with religion, especially with regards to Jesus Christ. It seems like every so called alien encounter tries to deconstruct Jesus Christ and make the claim that he wasn't who he said he was or we created him etc.

www.alienresistance.org...

I wish that nice old lady I used to know had gotten this message as well. She would make all those yearly pilgrimages to Mt Shasta in CA to commune with the aliens whom she worshipped as Gods. Too bad the CIA killed her, but that's another story.



When one expresses themselves as you have, it would be beneficial to accepting what you say if you could provide evidence for it. You might say: "Well, why don't you provide evidence for your claims that UFOs are not related to religions?" and you'd be within your rights to ask so. Except that I don't need to prove something that was never a factor in life. Religions and UFOs are linked only be believers' faith which generated in the mind. Not one single person can back up any claim linking religions to UFOs. I'm confident of that.

You have no evidence of anything you said 'cause you have no knowledge about the reality of aliens and how they think, IF they think. Especially about the mythical jesus.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


man.. why is it every time you post one of these things.. you are alwys spending more time defending yourself than anyone I have ever seen here. Hell Phage, or Internos could go to a room full of crystal worshippers meditating on aliens and leave with atleast half of them following them feeling stupid. Why is that? because they do something called RESEARCH! its more than "Hey Im drunk.. aliens must be gods.. no no no. they arent. they ahve nothing to do with religion what so ever! IM GOING TO ATS!"You pull out these flagrant ideas and seem to throw these unmittigated attacks that are brought on by conjecture and, frivolity. Half the time I cannot tell if you are daft, or just having fun. Hopefully the latter. Just relax, go back to where, ever, and look at BOTH sides. If you are such an atheist, you would not fear what the religious people have to say about ufology, and the possible ties it may or may not have to spirituality. Hell mate, I HATE jesus for keeping man back scientifically and educationally for thousands of years. but I will not say the bible has nothing to do with Jesus without atleast having read the damned thing



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


I can completely agree with you on the matter of posters going overboard with quoted religious text, as I also felt that one poster exceeded what was necessary to show that their beliefs, however biased were drawn from a religious viewpoint. Conceded on this point, and must agree with you and your request due to this.

Now on to my reasons as to why i disagree, I thought it was very plain and universally understood of many antiquated mythologies. Point; you have Ouranos -sky father, banishes the cyclopes and the hecatonchires, just one of the gods of Greek mythology, as there are 10 deities for Greek mythology. These beings were not believed to be from this earth even though a couple of them did in fact move to reside either on or within this earth.

Then we have Helios(aka-Apollo), the god of sun from Greek mythology, he pulled the sun across the sky with a chariot, now it is believed that the ancient Greeks used chariots as transportation, but it is not believed that they could literally fly through the air, sounds like a very good description of an being with the technological capabilities to cause an ancient civilization to believe that they were a god and should be treated as such, therein lies religion.

This is just a tiny fraction from Greek mythology,, and by previous post you appear to be aware of some Egyptian mythology and familiar with what are seemingly unexplainable drawings found in caves that may or may not seem to support at least a belief in beings that could fly not only through the air but presumably through the heavens, and is widely believed that the technology may not have existed at the supposed time of such drawings.

Does that provide a good basis in my belief that UFO's, and Aliens are and have very likely been at the root of the basis for religions.

edit for spelling

[edit on 15/12/2009 by Pappa_Bear]



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by HankMcCoy
 



Forgive me, I was in error, as I tend to be from time to time. Please reread my quote and replace Astrological with Astronomical. English, as I have stated in other threads, is not my first language.


English is not my first language either, officially, Spanish is.


You've never seen any religious writings that describe unidentifiable objects in the sky? I think you are being dishonest, considering I can think of 2 off the top of my head from the Christian Bible alone.


Religious writings that describe unidentifiable objects in the sky do not necessarily mean UFOs as we know them in the present. I have a copy of a book everyone on ATS Aliens and UFOs forum should read, titled: "HANDBOOK OF UNUSUAL NATURAL PHENOMENA - Eyewitness Accounts of Nature's Greatest Mysteries" by William R. Corliss. On the back cover it mentions some of topics covered: CLOUDLESS RAIN, COLORED SNOW, HUMMING DESERTS, MULTIPLE RAINBOWS, ROCKET LIGHTNING, PHOSPHORESCENT WHEELS, MULTICOLORED MOCK SUNS, EXPLODING HAIL and much more...

Did you notice the PHOSPHORESCENT WHEELS? The chapter on "Optical and Radio Anomalies in the Atmosphere", which runs from pages 88 to 174 is worth the price of the book. We don't know what those ancient peoples witnessed and we can't use presen explanations to their descriptions. Especially a christian bible!



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:47 AM
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thanks seattletruth that was interesting ...i needed that


but The Shrike...how do you know there is no god, that there is no connection to aliens or ufo?

see here...you may think you know...but you don't

matter of fact none of us do so quit acting like your "all knowing" like nearly all skeptics on ATS

how come nearly every atheist i'v met...they always seem angry



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:52 AM
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I am guessing the ones who spout the whole UFO/ metaphysical wacko nonsense in the same breath is what got you started on this rant... I dont blame you. To get from here to somewhere in space takes technology. Otherwise, NASA would wish their little tinkertoys into orbit, no? The only 'frequencies' any self respecting space agency raises is the radio frequencies on the various spacecraft whizzing over our heads.

I mentioned this in another thread- I have seen UFO crap that'd turn paper white. I wont mention a lot about it, because some of what I've been thru would make me sound more like I should be sharing a cell with a guy who thinks he's Napoleon. I dont mention but a few things, because of possible interest, or it relates to the thread (or, I hope it does). I have NEVER given a full timeline of what *I've* seen and been thru. And I never will.

And ya know what? I haven't had one metaphysical spouting episode thru any of my experiences. NOT A SINGLE ONE. In fact, the whole concept makes my head hurt. Ive also found the religious and metaphysical bunk pushers are ALWAYS the ones with the nice bank account, the car... always the same pattern.....



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by Traumacrazy
how come nearly every atheist i'v met...they always seem angry

well because trauma... they lack jeebus. Besides, I think the shrike here is just pissy cause he;s always having to defend his moronic claims and now and again most of us want more than "There's no evidence" as an answer when any person that has read ANY religions book can find evidence. As a priest said, it isnt difficult to mistake technology for divinity when the locals are ill advanced. Besides, I dont think the athiest realises by saying UFO's arent part of religion, he admits god, or a god, or gods



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by stanlee
 


yup just like i told my grandma "the bible speaks metaphor, the best they could describe things in those days"

at first she kept saying NO...but then i told here to read the bible again

now she's kinda getting it


it's funny...they say quit pushing your religion down our throats...yet they do this

kinda ironic



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 02:16 AM
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reply to post by Traumacrazy
 


I dont know whose worse sometimes. Wiccans, conservative christian fundamentalists, alqueda, or athiests



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by wylekat
I am guessing the ones who spout the whole UFO/ metaphysical wacko nonsense in the same breath is what got you started on this rant... I dont blame you. To get from here to somewhere in space takes technology. Otherwise, NASA would wish their little tinkertoys into orbit, no? The only 'frequencies' any self respecting space agency raises is the radio frequencies on the various spacecraft whizzing over our heads.

I mentioned this in another thread- I have seen UFO crap that'd turn paper white. I wont mention a lot about it, because some of what I've been thru would make me sound more like I should be sharing a cell with a guy who thinks he's Napoleon. I dont mention but a few things, because of possible interest, or it relates to the thread (or, I hope it does). I have NEVER given a full timeline of what *I've* seen and been thru. And I never will.

And ya know what? I haven't had one metaphysical spouting episode thru any of my experiences. NOT A SINGLE ONE. In fact, the whole concept makes my head hurt. Ive also found the religious and metaphysical bunk pushers are ALWAYS the ones with the nice bank account, the car... always the same pattern.....



Originally posted by wylekat
IAnd ya know what? I haven't had one metaphysical spouting episode thru any of my experiences. NOT A SINGLE ONE. In fact, the whole concept makes my head hurt. Ive also found the religious and metaphysical bunk pushers are ALWAYS the ones with the nice bank account, the car... always the same pattern.....


I've always found that atheists are typically misreable and angry in their everyday lives.

Atheists are not much different than hardcore religious fanatics, they just lie on different ends of the continuum and they're also both deeply brainwashed. You've only been living within the last 100 years; the earth is over 4 billion years old. You're a microscopic bug roaming around on microscopic spec of mud, going around a microscopic spec of light we call the sun, in a sea of a 100 billion stars in this 1 galaxy, out of a 100 billion other galaxies in an infinite, multidimensional universe. To claim that you know absolutely anything for certain (like there not being a God) is a bit of an arrogant leap of ignorance, wouldn't you agree?



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by hermantinkly
 


amen brotha



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 03:35 AM
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UFOs and religion have huge connection, Completly!
Read the Bible...
Read the Coran...
Read the Torha...
Read the Veda...
Read the...

Only a word: READ!



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 04:04 AM
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I will be totally honest here and admit i havn't read past the first page of replies as i hate reading religously bigoted nonsense.
For me the biggest connection is that both areas seem to be followed by about 99% blind belief nutcases.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 04:10 AM
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sure, i can dig it.
i blame ignatius loyolla for most things, reckon his mates cooked up the "universal ufo religion" business as a way to swallow up all the other mumbo into their big jumbo (the r.c.). of course the jesii will claim their ufo was the original one....
and the cargo cultists of the world will follow along...
look out for the flashy lights!2012!woo!



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 05:23 AM
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I think your views on religion are myopic to say the least. If I had a dollar for everyone who said religion was created to control the masses, I would have been a millionaire by now. It really is not that simple, religion has evolved out of various needs by early humans in order to understand the world better and their relationship with it, their origins and their purpose and to create common moral codes that would bring people together. This has allowed these early societies to form civilisation, leading to the development of science and arts. Thus the earliest attempts at philosophy, art and science are found in very religious socieites. Such as Sumeria and Egypt.

Later on in the history of civilisation religion takes on a more complex character and becomes more about abstract thinking and this leads to developments in scientific reasoning, more expressive art and the concepts of democracy. As well as the emergence of more abstract and complex concepts of god(ontological god) and monotheistic thinking.

In modern times religion has become more spiritual and universalist. It is more about self-development and realising happiness and peace for the world and unity of everything. It is now that we are seeing concepts like human rights and civil rights for everybody.

Therefore religion has been at the heart of the development of civilisation and the driving force behind it. If you take out religion, civilisation would collapse around the world. It is the binding force that keeps humanity together and motivates it to progress.

You are wrong that we are born atheist. Atheism is a modern phenomenon and it was born out of reaction to theism. From the birth of man, man has had a religious tendency. In every premodern culture you look at, in any part of the world, man since time immemorial has worshipped deities. It is safe to conclude the religious tendency to worship something greater than us is innate. This natural drive towards something greater is the reason why we progress at all. If it was not there, we would not have civilisation in the first place.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, although I tend to agree with you that the connections between UFO's and religions are spurious, nonetheless you cannot deny the possibility that the extensive descriptions of angels descending from the heavens or gods coming from the stars found in religions throughout the world may indeed be ancient descriptions of UFO's and ET. If you cannot even concede the possibility, then you are being unreasonable to say the least.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 05:49 AM
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People have done some decent research to support their viewpoints. Since you are disputing their research, may I see yours?

I also believe religion has been twisted and used for nefarious purposes in recorded history, but I would like to know your reasoning beyond your opinion on a subject (religion) you may know everything/nothing about.



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

You've never seen any religious writings that describe unidentifiable objects in the sky? I think you are being dishonest, considering I can think of 2 off the top of my head from the Christian Bible alone.


Religious writings that describe unidentifiable objects in the sky do not necessarily mean UFOs as we know them in the present.


That's actually EXACTLY what that means. If it was an unidentified flying object 2000 years ago, and it is still an unidentified flying object in the present, it is an Unidentified Flying Object.

This seems to be the basic miss-communication.



I have a copy of a book everyone on ATS Aliens and UFOs forum should read, titled: "HANDBOOK OF UNUSUAL NATURAL PHENOMENA - Eyewitness Accounts of Nature's Greatest Mysteries" by William R. Corliss. On the back cover it mentions some of topics covered: CLOUDLESS RAIN, COLORED SNOW, HUMMING DESERTS, MULTIPLE RAINBOWS, ROCKET LIGHTNING, PHOSPHORESCENT WHEELS, MULTICOLORED MOCK SUNS, EXPLODING HAIL and much more...

Did you notice the PHOSPHORESCENT WHEELS? The chapter on "Optical and Radio Anomalies in the Atmosphere", which runs from pages 88 to 174 is worth the price of the book. We don't know what those ancient peoples witnessed and we can't use presen explanations to their descriptions. Especially a christian bible!


I'm not trying to explain ANYTHING from the Bible. I am merely telling you that there are unidentified flying objects in the Christian Bible. You are not disputing this fact.

Let me ask you a few questions.

1. Are there flying objects in the Bible?

2. Did the authors of the Bible understand what those flying objects were?

[edit on 15-12-2009 by HankMcCoy]



posted on Dec, 15 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


Part of me agrees with the basic sentiment you express, but a greater part of me disagrees with your premise. I grew up in a Lutheran household, but I also fostered a fascination for non-Christian supernaturalism and memes such as UFOs, Bigfoot, etc. Having an educated family (no college degrees back then, but just very well-read) and a great public education (it was good back in those days!) also clued me into the fact that the premise on which Christianity was based was probably, if not assuredly, mythological, or even "incorrect." I did not grow up as a 'believer.'

I felt, growing up, that there were so many reports of UFOs, flying saucers and the like, that there MUST be something to this idea. As I aged, I grew more convinced of the reality of the phenomena. I didn't realize it then, as I do now, that I'd merely found the right "faith button" in my psyche, and that I was unconsciously programming myself to believe, despite the evidence of my own experience. Here's a kid, raised on a belief in science, who has faith that among the many witnesses coming forward, a certain percentage have just *GOT* to be on to something!

Suffice to say, from birth until now, 34 years later, I've not had ONE single experience of something I could truly call a UFO. Yet, I still believe. One can only call this FAITH. The anecdotal evidence in support of UFOs is no different than the evidence that supports the belief in...

1. Fairies.
2. Bigfoot.
3. Religious miracles.
4. The existence of God.
5. That guru so-and-so is an enlightened God-man.
6. Navajo shape-shifters and witches.
7. Etc, etc, etc.

Radioactive trace evidence of UFO landings? Consider stigmata, or incurable diseases cured. Testimony from thousands of eye-witnesses over centuries? Exactly the same as those who claim to have been present when divine manifestations take place? Abductions? Consider visits from angelic beings. Thousands of simultaneous eyewitnesses, ala 'the Phoenix Lights?' Consider Fatima, or video of 'light beings' (was it Ali?) at Shi'ite pilgrimage sites. Until such time as a verifiable crash takes place, one that is not covered up via conspiracy and subterfuge and the thickening layers of years and years and years of distance from the event, a belief in UFOs is, for many people, a leap of FAITH. We have FAITH that anecdotes are true, that pilots, civil servants, military folks, etc. are "trained observers" who are not mistaken concerning what they saw. Faith that humans don't unknowingly misrepresent the truth of what they have seen.

Further, religion CAN have measurable benefits; it is not just a system of social control. There exist entheogenic religions (e.g. Santo Daime, UDV, the Native American Church) in which membership and consumption of the given sacrament can be demonstrated to produce mystical experiences, positive changes in mental health and outlook, the adoption of positive physical and mental behaviors, positive changes in cognitive abilities, and so on. Scientific studies with controlled populations. You see? A man's choice to accept and experience the precepts and practices of the Santo Daime is a MORE rational and evidence-based decision than it is to believe in the reality of unexplainable UFOs.




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