Free Health Care is Awesome!!!, page 13


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 38 times


reply posted on 13-12-2009 @ 12:33 PM by WTFover
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


My problem with the word "free" being bandied about so recklessly, is that there are too many who do not see anything else. Every time they are told the current U.S. "health care reform" will produce "free" health care, they take it to mean just that. While looking for the "free" ride, they ignore the bad aspects of the proposed bills. They ignore the problems the proposed bills do not address, for instance, tort reform. They ignore the enormous burden of debt, with which the proposed bills will burden future generations.

The word "free", as related to the health care debate, is nothing but a misleading marketing tool. Look at how often it is used in advertising and, especially, info-mercials. That's because it works. Some peoples' minds just shut down, when they see the word. They are what I refer to as the Walmart Generation. They are convinced Walmart is the cheapest place to buy anything and they won't be convinced otherwise. Mind numbed automatons. Those who fell for the whole "hope" and "change" sales pitch. They are the target audience, not those who can think for themselves.

When peoples' minds shut down, serious debate ceases. Just as I said, it then becomes a "us against them" scenario. We must, without question, accept this garbage legislation, or be accused of being racist, heartless, uncaring bigots.

Directly or indirectly, you will pay for your health care. At least, those who are currently paying.


reply posted on 13-12-2009 @ 09:16 PM by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by WTFover


Again i understand that healthcare is paid by taxes in a socilised system as does the OP. The word free is simply used to mean you have no bill to pay at the end of your treatment becuse the money has come out of national insurance which is based on taxes.

I don't think many people actually believe it to be "free" in the true sense of the word. I think you're being rather condesending towards most people when you say that so many think that.


reply posted on 13-12-2009 @ 09:41 PM by WTFover
Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by WTFover
I think you're being rather condesending towards most people when you say that so many think that.


As an example of the people, to which I refer, I remind you of the 2008 Black Friday trampling death, of a Walmart employee, by shoppers trying to be the first to a bargain.



reply posted on 13-12-2009 @ 10:28 PM by MikeNice81
Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet



Isnt' it worth at least a try, it cannot be any worst than the system you have in place now, I guess you would rather the devil you know than the devil you dont.


I'm pretty late in to this and haven't read the whole thread. Here is one reason why I don't like the idea of federal health care.

My grandfather went to the VA for 13 months because he had chest congestion and pain. Plus he was spitting up flem with bits of blood. His condition worsened. He was losing lung function, weight, and energy. It progressed to the point he had to quit his job because he couldn't work past lunch hour any longer.

First visit: Seems like you might have a cold.

Second visit (six weeks later): Oh well it must be a persistent cold try taking this mucus relieving stuff.

Third visit (after waiting 3 months for an appointment): It must be allergies. You've never been allergic to anything in your life? They must be newly developed allergies. Take this Claritin and come back if things persist.

Fourth Visit (Waited another 2.5 months for an appointment): The Claritin isn't working? Well try this instead.

Fifth visit (in an ambulance 10 months after first visit): This isn't related to your allergies. It seems you have a severe respiratory infection. Take this and this and come back in six weeks.

Sixth visit (2 months later because he couldn't get an earlier appointment): Well all of our test point to pneumonia. Take these drugs and come back if you aren't better in two weeks.

Seventh visit (1 month later): Oh it seems that actually you have stage four cancer in your lungs and esophagus. We want to start treatment next week.

Five months later we buried my Grand-pa.

By the time they had decided to do the test it had progressed beyond help. The doctor said, "All we can hope for now is prolonging life long enough to get affairs in order." I'll never forget the doctor's response when I asked him why it took so long to test for cancer. "Well I didn't think his condition waranted taxing already limited resources."

Experiences like that make me distrustfull of gov't healthcare.

I forgot to say, In the end they admitted that he never had allergies. It was cancer, caused by exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam, all along.

[edit on 13-12-2009 by MikeNice81]


reply posted on 13-12-2009 @ 11:42 PM by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by WTFover


I find it slightly odd you talk about intelligent debate but your argument at the moment seems to boil down to people who want free healthcare (i've already explained most people don't think it's actually free) are walmart trash. If you want to move past this then we can but it is you, not i that has gone on about the average person thinks the healthcare is absolutely free and talked trash about the kind of person that believes in socialised healthcare.

Originally posted by WTFover
Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by WTFover
I think you're being rather condesending towards most people when you say that so many think that.


As an example of the people, to which I refer, I remind you of the 2008 Black Friday trampling death, of a Walmart employee, by shoppers trying to be the first to a bargain.


In this example i had already addressed where you are having a go at people and your reply was to offer up a story about people being trampled. This is not how everyone acts, if it were then we would see it nationwide.

Originally posted by WTFover
My problem with the word "free" being bandied about so recklessly, is that there are too many who do not see anything else. Every time they are told the current U.S. "health care reform" will produce "free" health care, they take it to mean just that.


I really don't think this is true. I think actually it is you who hears "free healthcare" and assumes anynoe supporting it must believe it is free as it allows you to argue and feel very justified.

Originally posted by WTFover
The word "free", as related to the health care debate, is nothing but a misleading marketing tool. Look at how often it is used in advertising and, especially, info-mercials. That's because it works. Some peoples' minds just shut down, when they see the word. They are what I refer to as the Walmart Generation. They are convinced Walmart is the cheapest place to buy anything and they won't be convinced otherwise. Mind numbed automatons. Those who fell for the whole "hope" and "change" sales pitch. They are the target audience, not those who can think for themselves.


Again we see your condescending attitude. If you support socialised healthcare then you don't think for yourself according to this last sentence of yours. Well i'm in the UK, i have socialised medicine, i recognise the benefits according to numerous international studies so i would argue that it is you that is being close minded. Again we see you looking down at anyone who supports socialised medicine as being close minded or "part of the walmart generation" which seems to be stupid people in your view.

Originally posted by WTFover
When peoples' minds shut down, serious debate ceases. Just as I said, it then becomes a "us against them" scenario. We must, without question, accept this garbage legislation, or be accused of being racist, heartless, uncaring bigots.


I woudln't call you racist, i have seen no evidence for that, you have said you want to make sure those who can't afford it are covered but not those who won't. So i would say that means you support some government intervention. The flaw with the idea however is that it won't work. There are tons of people, middle class workers who are now about to go homeless, how would you design a system to care for them? How would you design a system so that if someones insurance fails them they get covered and if you used a system that would cover these people then how would you stop people just not getting insurance?

Peace.

[edit on 13-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]


reply posted on 14-12-2009 @ 12:35 AM by projectvxn
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I want what you want. I do not believe people should go broke to get healthy. That is not even close to a sustainable system. But before we do something like Universal Health Care, or Public Option we must return the Constitution to it's rightful place as the Supreme Law of the Land, and have it enforced. I say this because if the Constitution is not followed a system will be developed whereby Government and corporate entity can just come together and begin to erode the system with their schemes over time. It has happened in nearly everything the government has stuck it's nose in.

Frankly I'm tired of it. I happen to believe that Health Care falls under the general welfare clause, but in order to do something like this effectively, and without destroying America fiscally, we must pay down our debt and eliminate the bureaucracies that pollute our nation, and harm our freedoms. The Answers are in the Constitution, I just wanna see a plan that fits the criterion of the Constitution. Health is not just a private concern, it is a national concern and human history backs up that statement. Therefore it is within the bounds of reason to have a government financed health care system.

But let's not lose perspective here. Obama inherited the America Bush created, and his behavior hasn't exactly be exemplary of a person who has rejected those ideals, despite how much he said he would. Because of this and the fact that the same people are still running the government, I must assume that anything they do is suspect, and it is usually illegal, again with the Constitution being the Supreme Law of the Land.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by projectvxn]


reply posted on 14-12-2009 @ 12:29 PM by k3456789
reply to post by stereovoyaged


free health care yes forced obamacare with no public option no


reply posted on 14-12-2009 @ 03:04 PM by johnny2127
Originally posted by k3456789
reply to post by stereovoyaged


free health care yes forced obamacare with no public option no


You want explain why you think a public option is so great?


reply posted on 14-12-2009 @ 05:52 PM by djspot
Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by stereovoyaged


Buddy I hate to burst your bubble, but your health care isn't free. Just because you don't pay when you go to the doctor doesn't mean it isn't free. You top tax brackets in Canada approach 70%. Average is 40%. While half of Americans that file tax returns owe zero taxes. So yes, you pay and pay heavily.

Oh, and of the 11 Canadians I know, all of them hate their health care system.


I signed up to the site just because of this comment.

This is the big problem, the idea that we pay the amount of taxes this poster claims is crazy...Where did you get your numbers???? American media portrays our health care system as lackluster, this is so false...that people die waiting for treatment? These things are simply not true!

You say you know 11 Canadians and they all hate their health care system...I'm 27 years old...lived in this country for 24 years now, I have not once heard one person say they hate our health care system.

Here's a link to the Canadian Revenue Agency website that shows our tax brackets and so on...
www.cra-arc.gc.ca...

Where is this 70% tax...

I make an average income, I live in Toronto, Ontario...I am deducted (federal and provincial combined) 30.2%

I can’t lie and sit here pretending I enjoy watching 30% of my pay get deducted...but I also don’t mind knowing that when my mother and grandmother were treated for cancer and underwent multiple surgery's they didn’t go into debt...when my mother had to have reconstructive surgery on both hands because of severe arthritis, when my sister had her daughter, etc.

Any Canadian who complains about our health care system deserved to endure what some Americans have had to face. It honestly hurts my heart when I hear of these horror stories about people having to make decisions on their health and well-being with money and debt being a factor. It really is very sad.

I will say this though, I've often caught Canadians downplaying our Country, in terms of public services and so on when speaking to Americans...I dont know why they do this.


reply posted on 14-12-2009 @ 06:32 PM by johnny2127
Originally posted by djspot
Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by stereovoyaged


Buddy I hate to burst your bubble, but your health care isn't free. Just because you don't pay when you go to the doctor doesn't mean it isn't free. You top tax brackets in Canada approach 70%. Average is 40%. While half of Americans that file tax returns owe zero taxes. So yes, you pay and pay heavily.

Oh, and of the 11 Canadians I know, all of them hate their health care system.


I signed up to the site just because of this comment.

This is the big problem, the idea that we pay the amount of taxes this poster claims is crazy...Where did you get your numbers???? American media portrays our health care system as lackluster, this is so false...that people die waiting for treatment? These things are simply not true!

You say you know 11 Canadians and they all hate their health care system...I'm 27 years old...lived in this country for 24 years now, I have not once heard one person say they hate our health care system.

Here's a link to the Canadian Revenue Agency website that shows our tax brackets and so on...
www.cra-arc.gc.ca...

Where is this 70% tax...

I make an average income, I live in Toronto, Ontario...I am deducted (federal and provincial combined) 30.2%

I can’t lie and sit here pretending I enjoy watching 30% of my pay get deducted...but I also don’t mind knowing that when my mother and grandmother were treated for cancer and underwent multiple surgery's they didn’t go into debt...when my mother had to have reconstructive surgery on both hands because of severe arthritis, when my sister had her daughter, etc.

Any Canadian who complains about our health care system deserved to endure what some Americans have had to face. It honestly hurts my heart when I hear of these horror stories about people having to make decisions on their health and well-being with money and debt being a factor. It really is very sad.

I will say this though, I've often caught Canadians downplaying our Country, in terms of public services and so on when speaking to Americans...I dont know why they do this.



Buddy, this is income tax brackets. Like I said, there is a layered taxation in both Canada and the US, as most people understand.

First your employers are taxed on payroll, accounting for about 12% of federal revenue, which then reduces how much you are paid. Then you have to income taxes in the table you posted. Then there is the taxes on companies you buy your good from, which increases the prices of those goods. Then you have sales tax, which varies in each province, but with an average of 12.5% with an exception of Alberta. Then there is property taxes, excise taxes, funeral taxes, estate taxes, profit tax, tobacco tax, gas tax, etc. The US has many of these as well, however they are much lower (although still to high in my opinion).

An example is that a family making 70k a year in Canada pays about 46% in taxes. When you go over 200k a year is when you start getting into the 50-70% tax range. You have to understand your total tax situation, not just income tax, which is just a portion.



reply posted on 15-12-2009 @ 06:38 AM by johnny2127
Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck


My point is that we don't resent what we pay to achieve Universal Heath Care, and frankly, you can stop trying to tell us how bad we have it. We have what we have, and collectively, it amounts to a better life than yours because we have great treatment, and don't lose our homes if we get ill.
Our standard of living likely exceeds yours because our banking isn't #ed as well. My final word to you (again) is you can quit pressing your agenda on Canadians. It might work on scared conservatives, but don't pi$$ in my face and tell me it's raining out.


You're funny. I can 110% guarantee you that all Canadians do not have your attitude towards your taxes. In facts I would guarantee that the majority want to be taxed less. The point about why govt run health care all over the world fails, is because of the waste associated with anything govt run. Govt is the least efficient method of getting just about anything done.

I am sure your govt thoroughly appreciates the fact that you don't care how much they take from you and everyone else in your country. I am sure govt's would much rather have someone that is willfully ignorant than someone that decides to do their own research, think outside the box and not just agree with whatever your govt shoves down your throat.

And to go to your analogy about someone peeing in your face and telling you its rain, there is a much better analogy for the way you think. Someone is peeing on your face and you say, I don't care that my face is getting peed on because I need my face washed and thats the best way to do it regardless of all the facts and evidence to the contrary. All the while, you smell like pee and ignorance.


reply posted on 15-12-2009 @ 08:01 AM by JohnnyCanuck
reply to post by stereovoyaged


There are tons of money for both Bush and Obama to engage in overseas adventures. There were tons of money for the big Wall Street bailouts...concocted by both administrations.

But universal health care is off the books? Your government will put Iraq's system back in place, but you guys don't deserve it? America can't afford it?

Notice how there are always those who will bend over backwards to tell you how/why you don't rate? Notice how they will insist that everybody else is suffering under poor systems but...for some reason...are lying to you about how good they have it?

I live just fine as a working-class stiff. House, vehicles, education for the kids, vacations...all the measures of middle-class contentment. And when I got cancer, it cost me $32 out of pocket. Tax rates are meaningless...the measure is the quality of life you get for your 40 hr week. If mine is identical to yours, but I have universal health care included and you don't, it's plain to see something is wrong.

Folks cite biased sources, pull figures out of their wazoos and just plain shout bafflegab at you but it does not change the fact that Americans are getting screwed by their HMOs, with the happy assistance of their government and anybody who says otherwise is stupid or crooked.

Simple question for the ones that say you can't have it too...."Why do we have unlimited funds to kill foreigners, but can't afford to fix Americans?"

[edit on 15-12-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]


reply posted on 15-12-2009 @ 11:17 AM by Terra Serranum
Originally posted by johnny2127
Originally posted by Terra Serranum
My wife's company just dropped their HMO, we can't afford the PPO which would be 50% higher so we're going with the HMO my work offers. It'll be $290 every two weeks for the family, the reason it's so "low" is because my employer pays for my portion of the insurance.

I had to change doctors cause the one I've had for the last 2 decades isn't covered, there are deductables, etc. Sadly that figure is about 20% of my paycheck, tell me why having free healthcare is a bad thing again?


Again, its not free! Geez, if we had Canada's system you would have at least 25% less in your paycheck at least from the higher taxes needed to pay for that system and the various others needed to support it.

You guys imagine that you'll have the same amount of money in your pocket, if not more, and then get free health care. Thats not how it works. First your taxes would sky rocket, and then the quality of your care goes down. Its not free people, open you eyes


I'm in Los Angeles, I'm used to exorbitant taxes, would be nice to have something to show for it! I know all about Canada's system, my family is French Canadian, aside from my parents they're all still in Montreal. Never hear a single complaint about their healthcare and my relatives are sadly at that stage in life where health is rapidly deteriorating. Those long waits and epic lists are scary myths but far from reality.


reply posted on 15-12-2009 @ 11:24 AM by stereovoyaged
reply to post by Terra Serranum


Thank you, i'm sure you're imput will be said to be lies and you will be called a hippy or not a true american, or a traitor or a terroist, etc but thank you. Maybe the more examples we can show SOME ppl will start to believe us.
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