Free Health Care is Awesome!!!

Care to cite a source so we can read it too?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Care to cite a source so we can read it too?

How about:
"Party of No" Blocks Debate on Bernie Sanders' Real Reform

The Senate almost debated health care reform this seek. No, not the tepid tinkering proposed by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, in the compromised for(m) demanded by Senator Joe Lieberman, I-Insurance Industry. We're talking real reform...www.thenation.com...

A simple Google of Sander's name brought this piece in 'The Nation' at the top of the list. Only thing is, "The Party of No" apparently is bipartisan and includes Republicans too. Can't give the Dems all the credit.

What I don't get is people in America wanting this, but then complaining about the economic problems that we have been having.

The cost of Obama care plan ranges from 1.5 - 6 Trillion depending on who you ask. If we take 3 Trillion that is about $10000 per person. Where will that money come from? They aren't going to raise taxes that much, and they aren't going to cut spending anywhere so that leaves us with just printing more money out of thin air. That is what got us in the economic mess we are in now!!!!

Come on people, socialized health care seems great on the surface, but it really isn't. Name me one thing that the government has taken control over that is better than it was when they got it.

Here is some more reading for you all to enjoy. Sorry if some, or all of this has been posted before, I didn't go through the whole post.

www.balancedpolitics.org...

www.angelfire.com...

www.heartland.org...

www.articlesbase.com...

Originally posted by Majiq
The cost of Obama care plan ranges from 1.5 - 6 Trillion depending on who you ask. If we take 3 Trillion that is about $10000 per person. Where will that money come from? They aren't going to raise taxes that much, and they aren't going to cut spending anywhere so that leaves us with just printing more money out of thin air. That is what got us in the economic mess we are in now!!!!

Why is it ok to pull money out of your national butts for Wall Street, and for wars and foreign adventures, but when it comes to the common good, everybody suddenly figures it's beyond the public purse?

Do you think perhaps that you are getting screwed? You might like to entertain the thought, you know? Cuz people in nicer houses than yours are laughing at you.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Why is it ok to pull money out of your national butts for Wall Street, and for wars and foreign adventures, but when it comes to the common good, everybody suddenly figures it's beyond the public purse?

Two wrongs do not make a right.

And the public does not want this...

Do you think perhaps that you are getting screwed? You might like to entertain the thought, you know? Cuz people in nicer houses than yours are laughing at you.

Those legit people in those nicer houses have those houses as a result of their hard work.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Do you think perhaps that you are getting screwed? You might like to entertain the thought, you know? Cuz people in nicer houses than yours are laughing at you.

Yeah! And, while you're at it, demand you be given a house as nice as theirs and Armani suits in your closet and caviar in you pantry and a Maserati in your driveway. You're getting screwed! Demand a vacation home in the Hamptons and free cosmetic surgery. After all, if someone else is doing all the work to pay for it, its free!

Originally posted by WTFover
Yeah! And, while you're at it, demand you be given a house as nice as theirs and Armani suits in your closet and caviar in you pantry and a Maserati in your driveway. You're getting screwed! Demand a vacation home in the Hamptons and free cosmetic surgery. After all, if someone else is doing all the work to pay for it, its free!

Firstly this was a poor attempt to blow up someones argument by extending it to the point of ridicule. Very dishonest in a debate. Secondly the difference between socialised healthcare and armani suits for all is that one should be a basic human right to continue ones existence and the other is a non essential, luxury item. The same goes for the rest of what you have said, including everyone having the same level of home.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Those legit people in those nicer houses have those houses as a result of their hard work.

See now that makes it sound as if someone who can't afford healthcare doesn't work hard. There are people out their who may not have the intelligence to excel in a well paying field. However they can still be working incredibly hard, two jobs isn't uncommon and yet they still can't afford healthcare.

[edit on 21-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Do you think perhaps that you are getting screwed? You might like to entertain the thought, you know? Cuz people in nicer houses than yours are laughing at you.

Yeah! And, while you're at it, demand you be given a house as nice as theirs and Armani suits in your closet and caviar in you pantry and a Maserati in your driveway. You're getting screwed! Demand a vacation home in the Hamptons and free cosmetic surgery. After all, if someone else is doing all the work to pay for it, its free!

You actually have no perception that you are being screwed by the HMOs? Please...don't make me out to be a Marxist becasue I support Universal Health Care, and I dare to point out that Americans are being screwed over when there is enough money for wars...but not enough to fix your brothers and sisters.

If you can't do any better than that, may as well go back to lurking.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
See now that makes it sound as if someone who can't afford healthcare doesn't work hard. There are people out their who may not have the intelligence to excel in a well paying field. However they can still be working incredibly hard, two jobs isn't uncommon and yet they still can't afford healthcare.

That was not the premise of my argument. Someone else (not you) said that people in their big fancy houses were laughing at the poor... This is an assumption of biased proportions that has no facts, but rather a maligned biased opinion. It really is stereotypical income class warfare.

I have no doubt their are hard working individuals from every background. But over 80% of all Americans are happy with their current health care package. The costs to perform procedures needs to come down, as does health insurance. However, the way congress and this admin. are going about it is completely wrong, and will in fact create new sets of problems with very little solutions to existing others. It is nothing more than a power grab by the powerful in this nation.

Socialized programs, such as socialized health care, are unsustainable in the long run, and will not work. It is doomed to fail.

[edit on 123131p://0712pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by semperfooBut over 80% of all Americans are happy with their current health care package.

Can you cite your sources on that figure?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a3d57d4767e0.gif[/atsimg]

[edit on 21-12-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by semperfoo
That was not the premise of my argument. Someone else (not you) said that people in their big fancy houses were laughing at the poor... This is an assumption of biased proportions that has no facts, but rather a maligned biased opinion. It really is stereotypical income class warfare.

The way i read it it was more about the HMO's being rich and laughing at people. I don't think he was referring to the middle classes or indeed the upper classes, just the system you have in place.

Originally posted by semperfoo
I have no doubt their are hard working individuals from every background. But over 80% of all Americans are happy with their current health care package. The costs to perform procedures needs to come down, as does health insurance.However, the way congress and this admin. are going about it is completely wrong, and will in fact create new sets of problems with very little solutions to existing others. It is nothing more than a power grab by the powerful in this nation.

Firstly i would be interested where you got the 80% figure, i have read many polls from american sources and can't find one that has that figure, but hey maybe i missed it. As for costs coming down, well the government can do that. You see here in the UK the government has a rather large weight to swing around when drug companies want to sell their stuff. Then there is the fact that without a profit motive the costs instantly fall through the floor and care levels can remain stable whilst being cheaper.

I would be interested as to how you see this as a power grab by the powerful.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Socialized programs, such as socialized health care, are unsustainable in the long run, and will not work. It is doomed to fail.

What do you consider the long run? The UK's system has been running for over 50 years, i would consider that a long term system.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Majiq
The cost of Obama care plan ranges from 1.5 - 6 Trillion depending on who you ask. If we take 3 Trillion that is about $10000 per person. Where will that money come from? They aren't going to raise taxes that much, and they aren't going to cut spending anywhere so that leaves us with just printing more money out of thin air. That is what got us in the economic mess we are in now!!!!

Why is it ok to pull money out of your national butts for Wall Street, and for wars and foreign adventures, but when it comes to the common good, everybody suddenly figures it's beyond the public purse?

Do you think perhaps that you are getting screwed? You might like to entertain the thought, you know? Cuz people in nicer houses than yours are laughing at you.

I absolutely don't think that it is ok to create money for wal street or unneeded wars. I think that our middle east adventure needs to come to an end, and I feel that not 1 cent should have been spent to bail out banks.

As far as the common good, I don't see it. They say that 45 million people in the U.S. are without health care, but they don't tell you that that number includes illegal immigrants, and people who simply choose not to have health care. Take that into consideration and the true number is about 15 million. Most of those people are eligible for medicaid/medicare, so why the need for a system that is going to drive up costs, and lead to lower quality in health care?

Originally posted by Majiq
As far as the common good, I don't see it.

And that, quite simply, is the difference between our countries and I will not endeavour to change your mind. I only address the shills that tell me my system doesn't work, and hold it up as an excuse for Americans not to take care of each other.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Majiq
As far as the common good, I don't see it.

And that, quite simply, is the difference between our countries and I will not endeavour to change your mind. I only address the shills that tell me my system doesn't work, and hold it up as an excuse for Americans not to take care of each other.

I do see where your system has major problems
Problems with Canadian Healthcare System

Now, take a system with those kinds of problems and implement it on a country with about 10 times the population and see what you have.

This sums up your system for me.

www.mattbors.com...



[edit on 21-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Majiq

I do see where your system has major problems
Problems with Canadian Healthcare System

Now, take a system with those kinds of problems and implement it on a country with about 10 times the population and see what you have.

Every system has problems, want me to go through the rather long list of complaints made about the american system? Also you say your country has 10 times the population without realising that the ssytem simply scales with population. The UK has nearly 70 million people and like the Canadian system it is going along just fine. Oh there are some problems but once again every system has problems.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Majiq

I do see where your system has major problems
Problems with Canadian Healthcare System

Now, take a system with those kinds of problems and implement it on a country with about 10 times the population and see what you have.

Every system has problems, want me to go through the rather long list of complaints made about the american system? Also you say your country has 10 times the population without realising that the ssytem simply scales with population. The UK has nearly 70 million people and like the Canadian system it is going along just fine. Oh there are some problems but once again every system has problems.

The UK system is a good example. It is working now, but that is only because in '89 they allowed some market based competition back in. Before that the system was in shambles.

Also What about the large numbers of Canadians & Europeans who spill across our border for no other reason than to get medical services? Why come here if your systems are superior? I'm not saying that the U.S. system is problem free, but I can't see that socializing it will do anything but cause more problems.

Before more Americans blindly jump on this bandwagon they should get MORE FACTS

[edit on 21-12-2009 by Majiq]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The way i read it it was more about the HMO's being rich and laughing at people. I don't think he was referring to the middle cla

Could you please stop making excuses for other members?

Firstly i would be interested where you got the 80% figure, i have read many polls from american sources and can't find one that has that figure, but hey maybe i missed it.

You must have not looked hard enough.

Gallup has today released some analysis on public perceptions of health insurers based on polls conducted from 2006-08. The data cuts to the heart of why the the President is having such difficulty in selling plans to reform health insurance: public or private, people like their health insurance. According to Gallup's data, 87% of people with private insurance and 82% of people on Medicare or Medicaid say that the quality of their health care is excellent or good. Similarly, 75% of those with private plans and 74% on government-run plans rate their insurance plan as excellent or good. It's hard to convince people that change is necessary when they are pretty content with how things are, which is part of the reason Obama's job is so hard.

As for costs coming down, well the government can do that.

No the government cannot do that, competition can. Government will only create a monopoly destroying the free market system. On top of that, government run anything is unsustainable in the long run.

You see here in the UK the government has a rather large weight to swing around when drug companies want to sell their stuff. Then there is the fact that without a profit motive the costs instantly fall through the floor and care levels can remain stable whilst being cheaper.

Talk about a nanny state. No offense, but the UK is so fukked up, I do not want to be anything like the UK...

I would be interested as to how you see this as a power grab by the powerful.

Government monopolies. This is dangerous to the free market system. On top of that, the government approach will be unprecedented in terms of encroachment into the private lives of the citizens of this nation.

What do you consider the long run? The UK's system has been running for over 50 years, i would consider that a long term system.

And look at all the problems your system has created? You people cannot afford your system much like we cannot afford Medicaid and Medicare here. Socializing it will only make the problem here even worse.

We are in such debt that the expenses of unfunded liabilities will continue to tack on. Cost overruns will be imminent. The entire system will collapse much like the UK system is starting to.


[edit on 013131p://4512pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by Majiq
The UK system is a good example. It is working now, but that is only because in '89 they allowed some market based competition back in. Before that the system was in shambles.

The system had worked well but the age of the computer was coming along and it threw everything into a bit of an up in the air situation, not to mention we were in a terrible recession, industry, one of our key incomes had been destroyed, there had been riots and strikes and the entire country was in a state. The people were also losing all faith in the government.

Once things settled down everything was much better. I am not sure how you think market competition would impact the NHS considering it is a completely government funded system. The NHS is able to buy drugs cheaper than private doctors, it is able to provide surgery cheaper than private doctors and basically everything can be done cheaper with the same level of care.

So no it wasn't the introduction of market competition that fixed the NHS. I would argue the stabalisation of the economy, a shift to a less industrial based economy and immigration of skilled workers (doctors, nurses etc) fixed the NHS.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Could you please stop making excuses for other members?

I wasn't making an excuse, i simply think you read what he was saying incorrectly. Would you please allow me to comment on whatever i like?

Originally posted by semperfoo
You must have not looked hard enough.

Again you stated that 80% are happy yet that poll only included those with private insurance or those on medicade. It was not a slice of the population, it was biased. How about we quote the resst of your little article shall we?

The problem is that the polls like this don't capture the critical reasons why reform is necessary. Firstly and foremost, this poll doesn't represent the voices of millions of uninsured Americans, and extending coverage to those people is one of the primary motivations for reform. But, as pollster Bill McInturff, who along with Peter Hart conducted the most recent NBC/ Wall Street Journal poll, told reporters in a round table discussion last week, most Americans are convinced that covering the uninsured will require some sort of sacrifice on their behalf, and most people simply aren't prepared to give up anything to ensure that everyone has access.

Damn now that's embarrassing for you, it didn't poll those who were not insured either by private or governmental sources.

Originally posted by semperfoo
No the government cannot do that, competition can. Government will only create a monopoly destroying the free market system. On top of that, government run anything is unsustainable in the long run.

You dont' understand profit margins it seems. A company requiring profit means that the costs for the consumer go up or the vlume of sales go up. As they cannot control the volume they have to cut costs, refuse care where they can and put up the costs of medicines. Oh wait what am i doing the article you linked even says this!

The second pressing reason for health care reform is spiraling costs, a fact upon which insurers, physicians, hospitals and government all agree. It's been well reported that, as a percent of GDP, the U.S. spends significantly more than comparable nations - around 16% to Sweden or Italy's 9%, or France's 11%.

Ouch so market competition hasn't reduced the costs in your country but the socialised system in other countries has led to lower costs.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Talk about a nanny state. No offense, but the UK is so fukked up, I do not want to be anything like the UK...

We have many problems i absolutely agree but healthcare is not one of them. Oh it has it's problems, just like any system in this world but it's far superior to the profit driven system you have. Our system is care driven.

Originally posted by semperfoo
Government monopolies. This is dangerous to the free market system. On top of that, the government approach will be unprecedented in terms of encroachment into the private lives of the citizens of this nation.

You know i've used the NHS for years and it has not encroached upon my life. I am able to demand which doctor i see, i am able to demand tests of all kinds, i get to spend plenty of my time with my doctor and generally the system has been good. As for government monopolies well i'm afraid that is utter nonsense. A private system exists for things like cosmetic surgery and hey if you really don't like the NHS you can still go private. The difference? Better hospital food and fluffier pillows

Originally posted by semperfoo
And look at all the problems your system has created? You people cannot afford your system much like we cannot afford Medicaid and Medicare here. Socializing it will only make the problem here even worse.

Our people can afford our system, it works, we are still using it, people still have their operations, my own father was in hospital this month and was treated brilliantly.

Originally posted by semperfoo
We are in such debt that the expenses of unfunded liabilities will continue to tack on. Cost overruns will be imminent. The entire system will collapse much like the UK system is starting to.

The UK system is starting to collapse? Really? So after the previous recession years back, which was far worse it is suddenly collapsing. You sir/madam are completely ignorant of our system, it's politics and the financial situation the UK is currently in.