Free Health Care is Awesome!!!

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posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by stereovoyaged

Originally posted by Mattehinthebox
It's not that easy to just leave. That's a pretty blind thing to say. If you thought your country was awful but loved it, would you fight for it or leave?

I think many of us are prepared to leave if necessary, but I believe we were born in a revolution, and it will take one to fix our issues. We fell asleep at the wheel once we won our independence, and allowed banks and corporations to take over.

Or issue isn't free health care, our issue is the ability to pay for our commodities. Once we ditch an inflationary fiat monetary money, and go back to the original foundations of sound money and free market capitalism then we'll be able to afford the commodities Everyone deserves.


Well I hope there is a revolution in your country for you and the whole worlds sake. Having the curroption and green that embodies the u.s ended will benefit the whole planet. And I know its not just your country at fault. But do you honestly think the revolution will ever start?


Do I? Oh do I. Its not if, its when.

History repeats itself. May not be so obvious now but there is an explosion of awareness about evil banks, and corporate thugs. it wont take long for us to eventually want to reform and revolt. It's just a question of which straw is it, that will be the last?

Secondly, I still see a lot of people advocating Socialism as a good thing. It in theory sounds lovey dubby, and perfect. But people need to be realistic and realize that not how A.) Humans work B.) society works either.

Social structures that rob paul to pay peter always fail, its a question of how long they can prop it up.




posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by johnny2127
 


So what's your income tax over there then?



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by johnny2127
Yes not dumping the system but changing it from the govt run system it is now. Going more private. Govt run health care programs do not work long term. That has been proven by your broken system and the UK's. The US needs revamping for sure, but not to look like Canada's.

And congrats on the cancer cure! I do think that falls into the 'needing immediate care' area of things. And while it was $32 out of pocket, you do of course realize that the total taxation you pay is among the highest in the western world for whatever you tax bracket is right? Of which between 8-10% go towards health care.


Sure, the lobbyists are going to look for more money. There are plenty of doctors who dispute what you say, and if you hunt around the threads you'll see material I posted. I'm not doing it again for you.

And I don't care what our tax bracket is. It's the price of civilisation, and not leaving the weakest behind. That's who we are. I'm a working stiff, and I live just fine. Our standard of living is at least even to yours...probably better cuz we didn't get screwed by our banks like you did.

So...not arguing the point any further. If you want to learn more, google 'Canadian health care is great' instead of 'Canadian health care sucks', and not only will you get even more to think about, you'll wonder why people are lying to you.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

And I don't care what our tax bracket is. It's the price of civilisation, and not leaving the weakest behind. That's who we are. I'm a working stiff, and I live just fine. Our standard of living is at least even to yours.



Excellent point actually.



I can't believe some people actually think it's a bad thing to have "free" healthcare.. it's crazy and a very selfish mentality too.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by johnny2127
Yes not dumping the system but changing it from the govt run system it is now. Going more private. Govt run health care programs do not work long term. That has been proven by your broken system and the UK's. The US needs revamping for sure, but not to look like Canada's.

And congrats on the cancer cure! I do think that falls into the 'needing immediate care' area of things. And while it was $32 out of pocket, you do of course realize that the total taxation you pay is among the highest in the western world for whatever you tax bracket is right? Of which between 8-10% go towards health care.


Sure, the lobbyists are going to look for more money. There are plenty of doctors who dispute what you say, and if you hunt around the threads you'll see material I posted. I'm not doing it again for you.

And I don't care what our tax bracket is. It's the price of civilisation, and not leaving the weakest behind. That's who we are. I'm a working stiff, and I live just fine. Our standard of living is at least even to yours...probably better cuz we didn't get screwed by our banks like you did.

So...not arguing the point any further. If you want to learn more, google 'Canadian health care is great' instead of 'Canadian health care sucks', and not only will you get even more to think about, you'll wonder why people are lying to you.


Friend, I guarantee you I have done as much if not more research than you on health care. We can disagree and thats fine. But if your rebuttal to your high tax rates is that you don't care how high they are, thats where you are going to lose many people.

You are right that all societies should provide for those that cannot help themselves. But everyone can get health care, without it being a govt run plan. Govt, as I am sure you will agree, is full of waste and fraud. Its the most inefficient form of anything besides military. The idea that it must be turned over to govt to provide the poor with health coverage is a political ploy by those wanting a govt plan. The idea of blowing up the best health care system in the world, that people from all over the world come to if they can afford it, for a wasteful govt system that even the CMA President says is broke and providing poor care, is lunacy.

This is the sort of reform I would support:
Article



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:01 PM
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You are right that all societies should provide for those that cannot help themselves.


Why should societies provide to those who cannot? Who said? Why? I don't get that. Because they deserve it? Obviously not. People need to stop promoting the system of people taking care of you and learn that you NEED TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.

I guarantee if animals tried to live by our rules, but kept there aggressive nature that is a little less civilized then us glorified humans then they would be eaten alive.

Be realistic. There's one thing to be compassionate and helpful. it another to protect the idea that you aren't responsible for yourself, and should have things handed to you. NOTHING should be handed to you. Ever heard that phrase "Aint no such thing as a free lunch?" You always have to work for what you need.

Obviously i don't disagree with you that all humans have the RIGHT to live. They certainly do not have the RIGHT to demand that something be given to them in order to survive. You all rely to heavily on the Constructs of Society and need to realize that life isn't all peaches sometimes.

Lastly, simply taxing a group of people doesn't begin to amount to the amount of resources necessary to obligate "Free health care to all."

Pull your heads out of la-la land and realize that's not now nature, or real life works.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by johnny2127
The idea of blowing up the best health care system in the world, that people from all over the world come to if they can afford it, for a wasteful govt system that even the CMA President says is broke and providing poor care, is lunacy.


Best healthcare system in the world? Hmmm, let's see:
CIA FACTBOOK...infant mortality rates...you're beat by Cuba.
Life expectancy...well you beat Cuba at 55th rank...you're at 50...we appear to be at number 8.

Don't presume to tell us what some guy on the net sez to you, and how that should negate our own personal experiences. If I were you, I'd be more interested in their motives in scamming you.

Forgive me, but we really don't have anything more to say to each other.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by johnny2127
The idea of blowing up the best health care system in the world, that people from all over the world come to if they can afford it, for a wasteful govt system that even the CMA President says is broke and providing poor care, is lunacy.


Best healthcare system in the world? Hmmm, let's see:
CIA FACTBOOK...infant mortality rates...you're beat by Cuba.
Life expectancy...well you beat Cuba at 55th rank...you're at 50...we appear to be at number 8.

Don't presume to tell us what some guy on the net sez to you, and how that should negate our own personal experiences. If I were you, I'd be more interested in their motives in scamming you.

Forgive me, but we really don't have anything more to say to each other.


Unequivocal logic.

Just because you live longer doesn't prove a thing.

It has nothing to do with your health care and everything to do with the doctors.

Quit giving so much power to a system.

Money pays for everything, always will. What America is in is a far more deeper financial issue then you, and we have a much larger debt; therefore we cant afford it, and our rates are inflated to space.

Realize what the real answer is, not some legislation.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:18 PM
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From the W.H.O


A list of best healthcare systems in the world.

www.photius.com...


Another interesting one

www.photius.com...

[edit on 10/12/09 by blupblup]



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mattehinthebox
Just because you live longer doesn't prove a thing.


I'd say it's a pretty good hint.


It has nothing to do with your health care and everything to do with the doctors. Quit giving so much power to a system.


It has to do with access, and that's the system.


Money pays for everything, always will. What America is in is a far more deeper financial issue then you, and we have a much larger debt; therefore we cant afford it, and our rates are inflated to space.


Kind of you to rebuild Iraq's health system to a higher standard of access than your own. Perhaps if you prioritised your spending differently, all Americans would rate just as well....referring of course to the blank cheques written to the military. Always enough dough there...



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 

Good Evening, Johnny C.
I believe that the Canadian people, your government health system is probably working for Canada. The figures prove that. Yes, people will always narrate a case where it did not work, but for every one of yours, there are 10 in the US.
My concern is that, as I stated earlier on this thread, and you actually confirmed (with your comment about our banks screwing us), the US is not in the economic position right now to institute a government run health care system, which will send our national debt to GDP close to 100%. Canada's ratio is between 20 and 30% and has even been falling to a better level lately, while, as you, my friend, know, the US continues to dig itself deeper into debt.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by Mattehinthebox
 


you know, the whole "people should only take care of themselves" attitude is what has got your country to the point its at now, ie, on the brink of completely collapsing into the dirt. have you noticed how argumentative and grouchy a lot of Americans seem to be? and how pessimistic and cynical they are? and in reading these replies, have you noticed how happy the Canadians are with the way things are going here? how content we are with our system? and have you noticed we seem to be ok with helping other people? we dont mind paying our taxes because that is the price you pay for being the citizen of a country. you are required to contribute to the country, just like everyone else. the fact that people think they shouldnt have to help others is just something i cant comprehend. i cannot for the life of me understand the concept of only looking out for myself. its just not in my heart to be so selfish and cold. im a caring, compassionate, empathetic individual who thinks that everyone has the right to access to health care without having to worry about the bills after. i guess that i've just managed to evolve my way of thinking to understand that in the end, when you strip away all the money, all the material possessions, the job titles and bank accounts, we're all human beings and all equal. and i really hope that one day your way of thinking evolves as well, because until that happens people will continue to suffer and no one should have to suffer needlessly.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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First of all "free" healthcare is not free! It will take its toll on the county and the USA will ultimately end up heavily taxed and with a very flawed healthcare industry to boot.

How do I know? I know because my wife and I are from the UK and we left the that country to come and live here, the country with the best healthcare in the world. I can tell you of 4 relatives in the UK who have suffered at the hands of the NHS - in fact one died as a result. The best doctors will eventually leave and some will decide to retire. Believe me you are truly going to regret letting this happen. Mean while my wife and I are probably going to leave. BTY the only countries where a national healthcare system has worked well are countries with small populations. Remember this post! One day you will look back and wish you had believed what I warned you about.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by pogliaghi
First of all "free" healthcare is not free! It will take its toll on the county and the USA will ultimately end up heavily taxed and with a very flawed healthcare industry to boot.

How do I know? I know because my wife and I are from the UK and we left the that country to come and live here, the country with the best healthcare in the world.


Which country are you in sorry? I only ask because you cannot mean the USA if you are in the country with the best healthcare system in the world. I say that because the World health organisation ranks the USA around 37th place and the UK around 18th place. France is 1st according to the list blupblup posted and that is a socialised system.

So yeah facts seem to contradict what you and a lot of other people are saying when you criticise social healthcare.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by johnny2127
The idea of blowing up the best health care system in the world, that people from all over the world come to if they can afford it, for a wasteful govt system that even the CMA President says is broke and providing poor care, is lunacy.


Best healthcare system in the world? Hmmm, let's see:
CIA FACTBOOK...infant mortality rates...you're beat by Cuba.
Life expectancy...well you beat Cuba at 55th rank...you're at 50...we appear to be at number 8.

Don't presume to tell us what some guy on the net sez to you, and how that should negate our own personal experiences. If I were you, I'd be more interested in their motives in scamming you.

Forgive me, but we really don't have anything more to say to each other.


I've had this conversation on those listings many times. What you do not realize without digging into the statistics, is how they are calculated. An example is that the US counts all births in their statistics regardless of how premature or health compromised, while nearly every other nation only counts what they call 'viable births'. Additionally, the US counts every death, such as foreigners the come to the US. While other countries only count those of people that were born and died there. So in the US we are adding the deaths of people that have spent most of their lives in other nations, many of which are 3rd world without health care. In other words, the statistics aren't even counted the same way. The US is adding millions of early deaths to their statistics, dragging the life expectancy down. If you count the life expectancy of those that live until at least 5 years old onwards, the US is above just about everyone.

Statistics not counted the same way are pretty worthless.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 09:06 PM
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Do you actually know how they judged the USA 37th? I bet you don't - it is judged from a socialist agenda. Believe me I lived in the UK my family suffered at the hands of the NHS in Sheffield (aunt died because of them), Kings Lynn (Norfolk), and the central region around Coventry. The latest story I have relates to my nephew. He had a pain in the lower abdomin - he called the clinic and becaused they were so busy they did a "telephone" diagnosis! They said it was either gas or he was constipated - next day his appendix burst - he survived. My wifes dad had gall stone - waited 7 years for the op - guess what he died of other causes before he got the operation. Quality of life - they don't care! If you think you know all about the NHS I suggest you go live it. This is what is coming. BTW my wife and I (we are lower middle class) have had fantastic health care and have not minded paying for it. 2 kids born here and it was a brilliant experience!


Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by pogliaghi
First of all "free" healthcare is not free! It will take its toll on the county and the USA will ultimately end up heavily taxed and with a very flawed healthcare industry to boot.

How do I know? I know because my wife and I are from the UK and we left the that country to come and live here, the country with the best healthcare in the world.


Which country are you in sorry? I only ask because you cannot mean the USA if you are in the country with the best healthcare system in the world. I say that because the World health organisation ranks the USA around 37th place and the UK around 18th place. France is 1st according to the list blupblup posted and that is a socialised system.

So yeah facts seem to contradict what you and a lot of other people are saying when you criticise social healthcare.



posted on Dec, 10 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by pogliaghi
 


So you had a bad experience and extrapolated that to the entire system, by that measure i can take all of the good experiences of myself and my family and friend and extrapolate that out in equal measure.

Every system has bad stories, do you have any possible clue how many bad stories the private healthcare has in the USA? For every single NHS case you give me i can give you two american ones. You're a fool to think your experience is indicitive of the entire system.

Hey heres my experience, terminally ill father, mother with cancer, myself unwell from CFS, my brother had a lump in his throat and was seen by a specialist within a week, my grandad had 5 heart attacks at the age of 85 and 2 strokes oh and so many friends with problems that the NHS treated brilliantly.

Heres the odd thing, if the NHS is so bad then why do the British people, generally love it? Why is it that if the government tried to take it away then there would be riots, literally. The system works well for the vast majority, every system will have some bad stories about it.

Oh and saying simply that "it was judged from a socialist agenda" is an absolute cop out and not a valid argument at all. It is an ignorant attempt to defend your position. I know full well how the WHO got those figures and it was quite fair. Numerous independant studies say the same thing.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

[edit on 11-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 05:08 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Mattehinthebox
Just because you live longer doesn't prove a thing.


I'd say it's a pretty good hint.


It has nothing to do with your health care and everything to do with the doctors. Quit giving so much power to a system.


It has to do with access, and that's the system.


Money pays for everything, always will. What America is in is a far more deeper financial issue then you, and we have a much larger debt; therefore we cant afford it, and our rates are inflated to space.


Kind of you to rebuild Iraq's health system to a higher standard of access than your own. Perhaps if you prioritised your spending differently, all Americans would rate just as well....referring of course to the blank cheques written to the military. Always enough dough there...


You think I A.) Control the government? and B.) Control the spending for the military? You're crazy, i didn't have anything to with that buddy, nor any other American, just the thugs in white house.

I also had nothing to do with the reformation of the Iraq health care system.

Get your mind out of your ass, the truth of the matter remains, we can't afford free market capitalism health care because we aren't in that kind of a system any longer. My answer isn't socialism like you advocate.

My answer is, we need to defeat the already socialistic ideas and return to captialism. All I know is before 1913 our money was fine. Guess what happened in 1913? If you don't know we had the creation of the Federal Reserve. A private CENTRAL bank. A central bank is quite literally one of the main bullet points of the COMMUNIST manifesto (A form of socialism).

"Yes I know my enemies" - Rage against the Machine



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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both sides to this debate once again are missing the most important issue here....

the Federal Goverment gets its power from the US Constitution. And those powers are restricted to only whats listed. Guess what, nothing in the Constitution allows the Federal Goverment the right to regulate healthcare.

Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal Goverment the right to force american citizens to pay for something either. Whats next, force americans to buy GM cars because its good for the economy or the new cars have better gas mileage, etc.

I repeat, THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT DOES NOT HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO REGULATE HEALTHCARE

period end of story

so whether you like the idea of goverment run healthcare or not, it truly doesnt matter. We are nation of laws founded upon a wonderful document. And this document if ignored will be the end to us all and our freedoms



posted on Dec, 11 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by admriker444
both sides to this debate once again are missing the most important issue here....

the Federal Goverment gets its power from the US Constitution. And those powers are restricted to only whats listed. Guess what, nothing in the Constitution allows the Federal Goverment the right to regulate healthcare.

Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal Goverment the right to force american citizens to pay for something either. Whats next, force americans to buy GM cars because its good for the economy or the new cars have better gas mileage, etc.

I repeat, THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT DOES NOT HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO REGULATE HEALTHCARE

period end of story

so whether you like the idea of goverment run healthcare or not, it truly doesnt matter. We are nation of laws founded upon a wonderful document. And this document if ignored will be the end to us all and our freedoms


And you chose Healthcare as the stand against your constitutional rights? You dont see it being destroyed through the bush doctrine, through the non existant free media, through the limits on free speech, to the wrongful detaining of persons?
Dont quote me your wonderful constitution you guys only follow when it suits your own personal interests. Its not a buffet either the whole document is follwoed or none of it is, and your sure as heck not following it.
Also Its UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO PAY TAXES, I REPEAT TAXES ARE UNCONSTITUTIONAL!! What happens when you dont pay them? Arrested!
This debate is MIND blowing to watch from afar. Americans have never lived in Canadian shoes so they dont get it and vice versa, i dont get their mentality.

I will sya though i work in the US and i dont know who is feeding you media outlets but some of the stories i have heard and questions i receive (from intelligent people) sometimes stop me in my tracks.
I once had a man tell me "i dont agree with the Canadian system cause i heard a woman in windsor died waiting for treatement."
Its statements like that from intelligent people that will insure this to become a very very heated topic.
As Canadians my advice, nobody likes a preacher, we can only tell them so many times how much we all love our system. They will ultimatly make their own decision and have to live with it, it wont change our system and since i am Canadian as long as i am happy with mine the US has a right to be happy with whatever they choose. No matter how flawed we as outsiders see it.





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