Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

reply to post by Joecroft

The trinity is one of the most debated topics in the history of Christianity and I didn’t want this thread to detract from the main topic of this discussion. There is an excellent thread discussion on it however, which you might like to take a look at…

I know all to much about Jehovah Witnesses and the Watchtower organization. However, You seem to be a little confused on the subject of the Trinity.

It is the Comma Johanneum which is at the center of debate. With out it, the Trinity does and has always existed. The Trinity doctrine was and is the conclusion.

The Watchtower organization loves to discredit it because it doesn't fit there sectarian paraphrase book which they call the Holy Scriptures.Complete Garbage that can be refuted at every angle.
This is on topic, because Jesus is part of the trinity and it is important for us to understand that he was a real living being. God in the flesh. Notice the word God, which non trinitarians dispute.


[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by badmedia

Jesus came to earth in order to be the example on how to live and follow the commandments, in hopes that those who "believed" him would follow in his footsteps and also walk the path.

I am well aware of the examples and teachings Jesus gave while here on earth and do not need a long winded explanation in rudimentary non trinitarian theology at best.

Point is he could not do these things if he did not exist in the flesh.Or otherwise why come in the first place? Why not "Will" his way unto people like the Father did unto you?

And it is for that reason that you will NEVER make anykind of real point, nor do you EVER have any chance of winning a debate with me. I have a fire that comes from my tongue that you can not put out

.


Lol!! you should really read and learn the covenants, especially the new one and what it means.

Hear I'll help you out a little,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." — Jeremiah 31:31-34
Than Jesus said,
This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:20


In this covenant Jesus purchased all God's elect by his death on the cross so that each of His people within the New Covenant could receive full forgiveness of sins, the new birth, and eternal life.

And guess what, He could only do this if he was flesh and blood.

You my friend need to go back to the old drawling board.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by Grandma


It will be a glorious time for some and for some others a terrifying reality. Can you imagine being told I never knew you? I pray that no one will hear those words on that day. Thank you for this thread Grandma. S+F.

reply to post by oliveoil


How about we quote all the parts, rather than only half a verse?

Luke 22

16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

It's the last super. Take notice of the bread and wine.

Proverbs 9

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

See, in the OT it is wisdom and understanding that leads men down the path, as I pointed out to you. In the NT, Jesus represents those things. A living example.

Bread = Wisdom = Cup = Flesh of Jesus.

Wine = Understanding = Blood = New convent.

New convent = understanding, old convent = written laws.

The cup is that which holds the wisdom and understanding, and the blood and bread he is talking about is wisdom and understanding in the last super.

He is saying that his body is like that cup, in that his body holds that wisdom and understanding(his blood). When he is giving them bread and wine, he is giving them understanding and wisdom.

The above is EXACTLY why he is called the word in the flesh. Because he does the will of the father, has the understanding of the father and so forth.

Thus, he is the new convent because he shows the proper understanding on how to keep the commandments. And thus, you do not need the laws themselves anymore, you can do it off the understanding itself. He does NOT get rid of the laws, he just shows people the understanding on how/why to follow them. And the understanding is greater than the written law, thus the new convent he speaks of.

I told you that understanding Proverbs 9 and the last super part was key.


[edit on 12/10/2009 by badmedia]

If I met Jesus or any God after death, I would ask him - Why did you gave us reason, 5 senses, and intelligence to not believe any unfounded claims, and then want us to believe in something without evidence or proof, in something which we posess no sense to detect. Its like if someone designed a computer and wanted to use it like a car. Also, how were we supposed to know which religion is true, when they are many of them and all claim "Pick me, I am the right one", but not a single one provides proof of their claims. How were we supposed to know, if you made us this way?

Originally posted by Maslo
If I met Jesus or any God after death, I would ask him - Why did you gave us reason, 5 senses, and intelligence to not believe any unfounded claims, and then want us to believe in something without evidence or proof, in something which we posess no sense to detect. Its like if someone designed a computer and wanted to use it like a car. Also, how were we supposed to know which religion is true, when they are many of them and all claim "Pick me, I am the right one", but not a single one provides proof of their claims. How were we supposed to know, if you made us this way?

Read Proverbs 8

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

You are supposed to use those things. Where did you get the idea you aren't?

Proverbs 9

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Fear of the Lord btw, means in the manner you fear your parents. A fear out of respect, rather than a fear/being scared because there is a shark in the ocean while you are swimming. So think of it in the manner of how you wouldn't want to disappoint your parents, friends, family and so forth. That kind of fear.



[edit on 12/10/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

If you choose to use the received text thats fine However its referring to the New Covenant.
And if you happened to get past that,Does the blood which is shed for you mean nothing to you?
in order for the New Covenant (critical text) to be fulfilled Jesus MUST DIE.
which in turn, his existence in the flesh means everything


Sorry, but your personal theory is totally incorrect, and please stop replying with irrelevant passages, and prove that the existence of Jesus in the flesh is not important.

Originally posted by Maslo
If I met Jesus or any God after death, I would ask him - Why did you gave us reason, 5 senses, and intelligence to not believe any unfounded claims, and then want us to believe in something without evidence or proof, in something which we posess no sense to detect. Its like if someone designed a computer and wanted to use it like a car. Also, how were we supposed to know which religion is true, when they are many of them and all claim "Pick me, I am the right one", but not a single one provides proof of their claims. How were we supposed to know, if you made us this way?

You already know. Its with in you. Stick with your questions and you will find. Use your head. and read the Bible. ask and you shall receive. Its yours for the taking.

Originally posted by oliveoil
If you choose to use the received text thats fine However its referring to the New Covenant.
And if you happened to get past that,Does the blood which is shed for you mean nothing to you?
in order for the New Covenant (critical text) to be fulfilled Jesus MUST DIE.
which in turn, his existence in the flesh means everything

First off, I don't in any way need your permission, nor have I ever asked for it in order to "use the received text".

If it's blood you want, then it is blood you will get. It is that which you seek, and it is that which you will find. Twice now you ignored completely the context, ignored completely the word in which Jesus was fulfilling(Proverbs 9) in exchange for blood.

I hope I'm not out of line here, but ask Grandma how much more blood she would have liked in her experience. If you are unfamiliar with that, I'm sure she or Leo will give you a link for the story, it's a good listen.

Sorry, but your personal theory is totally incorrect, and please stop replying with irrelevant passages, and prove that the existence of Jesus in the flesh is not important.

My personal theory? I didn't write the bible, and I gained the understanding from the father. Believe me or not, doesn't really matter. I'd say you were foolish to believe me, then you just be accepting and that is no different than what you do now. But if you have the understanding of the father, then you wouldn't need to believe me, you would already know.

I'm sorry that you wish to ignore the verses in their proper context in order to keep with church doctrine.



[edit on 12/10/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

First off, I don't in any way need your permission, nor have I ever asked for it in order to "use the received text".

Woe, there horsey. I forgot You don't need to read and quote the scriptures because the Father has given you infinite wisdom,Yet you still do quote from them, go figure

If it's blood you want, then it is blood you will get. It is that which you seek, and it is that which you will find. Twice now you ignored completely the context, ignored completely the word in which Jesus was fulfilling(Proverbs 9) in exchange for blood.

Did I touch a nerve? ouch!!!

I'm well aware of Jesus fulfillment of scripture.However, you have missed the point all along.

Jesus did exist period. In the flesh. Not only for the purpose of teaching, but also for fulfilling the scriptures in which "DIEING" on the cross was one of them.Perhaps the most important.

Maybe the father just forgot to mention this to you, Because he sure told everyone else.

Like I said you are half delusional if you cant see this.


[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Hang on what pre-christian scripture indicates the Messiah was meant to die on a cross ? If anything the text indicates he should have "died" in the temple.

Originally posted by gYvMessanger
Hang on what pre-christian scripture indicates the Messiah was meant to die on a cross ? If anything the text indicates he should have "died" in the temple.

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Hope this answers your questions.

reply to post by oliveoil


If you can not be honest in the discussion, I have nothing for you.

Why accuse me of false things if what I say alone is the reason for your disagreement? Please show me where I claimed infinite wisdom, and please atleast try to address the points that are made.



[edit on 12/10/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by oliveoil


Jesus is killed because of the sins of man. That is how he is bruised, that is how he "bears the iniquity of men".

If men did not sin, then Jesus would have not died. It is because of the sin of men that Jesus was murdered.

Jesus however did what he did knowing the results. In this manner he "lays down his life" for others. By giving the people the example and understanding, he saves them in the process - if they believe and follow him on the path.

The father did it because it was the only way people might start to follow the commandments properly, NOT because the commandments were in error and needed to be "lifted" or bypassed.

reply to post by badmedia

If you can not be honest in the discussion, I have nothing for you
Why accuse me of false things if what I say alone is the reason for your disagreement? Please show me where I claimed infinite wisdom, and please atleast try to address the points that are made.

Oh please give me a break. Wouldn't one have to have infinite wisdom
If God taught them everything they need to know from the Bible w/o reading it?

The issue at hand is if the existence of Jesus matters.

I say yes you say no.

You said what matters is his teachings. You are only Half right. You refuse to acknowledge that he DIED so that we can be saved.

In order for someone to die wouldn't you think that it would be necessary to LIVE?

His death was not in VAIN. Don't you get it?


[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by badmedia

Jesus is killed because of the sins of man.

Yes, and by doing so he is redeeming us from those sins

If men did not sin, then Jesus would have not died. It is because of the sin of men that Jesus was murdered

And Jesus knew this all along. It took dieing for men to realize this

Jesus however did what he did knowing the results. In this manner he "lays down his life" for others. By giving the people the example and understanding, he saves them in the process - if they believe and follow him on the path.

Yes ,Yes

The father did it because it was the only way people might start to follow the commandments properly, NOT because the commandments were in error and needed to be "lifted" or bypassed.

Your forgetting the new covenant which was prophetsized then later at the last supper by Jesus himself. Remember that the Jews still hold those commands, the gentiles however need not apply. He died for everyone.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

yes their sins were forgiven.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

Which is why the law of an eye for an eye still stands, it is a spiritual law, not an Earthly law.

Which is why we are to also carry our cross, and walk a path that lives for our spiritual life, not our Earthly life.

Unless one can detach from Earthly objects, there will still be much to learn.

What is of spirit is of spirit, what is of Earth is of Earth. We are to discern and make a choice, which do we live for?

Its not a bad thing for those who still need to learn from Earth....for the lessons provided are many and full. All things happen according to time and readiness....all wisdom's come as the being is ready for them. All paths are justified, for they all show a light somewhere, somehow. God made this world a place of duality, it is not a mistake, and we have never been unworthy of spiritual wisdom's.

Sifting is a process, it takes time. Man has created ways that shows an image of God that should be feared, which only leads one away from Thee. The idea that we must have a book or blood shed goes against the very nature of God.

A seed of Gods nature is within every one, it can be found. If you were deserted on this planet all by yourself, you could find God. Thee made it so.

The law of an eye for an eye was misused in blood sacrifices. We dont have to kill anything for our wrongs we find, we never had to kill for our wrongs we found....our tool is our body, our mind, our heart....God only needs your honest thoughts, honest understandings, honest love...we do things not because God tells us to, we do things because we understand it to be 'the way' and why it is so.

Those that killed another life for sins, will meet their eye for an eye at some point. This isnt punishment or condemning, its learning. Many times man has taken spiritual wisdom and tied it to Earth, misleading others. One should always test with the spirit, this is not done with a book, this is done within ones inner light, the source of God within. God is not complicated! God fosters hope and makes a way for all. There may be times of creating a 'hell' like place in between incarnations....but even this would be a place of learning. We will all see with a Divine Eye after death, we gain understanding and we know why all is what it is.

God never intended on man counting on fellow man to teach about finding God, God expects every single one of us to find Thee through a personal path. Seek things with life within, not things that are dead in spirit.

Test all things....with the Holy Spirit. Trust that God made a way for us to find Thee without the need of man made things.

Man keeps searching books, holidays, objects....because they cant see the tools were already here to find Thee.

But still it all serves purpose, nothing is mistake, even mans false directions will show others the right way eventually.

reply to post by oliveoil

the genitals however need not apply.

oliveoil, I am still laughing my butt off! Edit while you still can! Oh man that was good. I hope I have typed enough for a second line...

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by oliveoil

 

the genitals however need not apply.

oliveoil, I am still laughing my butt off! Edit while you still can! Oh man that was good. I hope I have typed enough for a second line...

Did I say that?. Man does not live by bread alone.

[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

What is of spirit is of spirit, what is of Earth is of Earth. We are to discern and make a choice, which do we live for?

Your forgetting one little detail. Man is of both body and spirit.


[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]

[edit on 10-12-2009 by oliveoil]