Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

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posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 01:58 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


Do you even realize that you don't know the meaning of the words?

The church Jesus is referring to in that verse is not at all talking about the "church". In the time of Jesus, a place of worship was called a synagogue or temple.

The church Jesus is establishing with peter is within a person. It is built out of that which is seen as rich in the eyes of god, wisdom and understanding. As such, it is present on earth, and in heaven as Jesus says.

It is also because these people have wisdom and understanding that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " Even though the body may die.

Yes, the words you know may be in the bible, but you only see them through the replacements that have been given. The "Church" has become a replacement for understanding and the holy spirit, the bible as a replacement for the true word of god, and on and on the list goes.

And you have absolutely no room at ALL to accuse someone of repeating themselves in order to affirm their own positions. When you yourself have refused on multiple occasions to address verses and so forth that have been given to you.

Do you even know the father at all?




posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


I keep repeating myself, saying the word of God comes through life....and you keep repeating yourself on 'find God in the book'.

As much as we both think that something is going to mabey sink into the other, we still tell eachother that there is mote in the eyes.

I only asked you one question that I remember...which was, if God already created a wrold that the answers laid within....why then make man dependent on a book that could be destroyed? To take it further, why would God give his pearls to the swine? The reason there can be found spiritual wisdom in the Bible is because there were spiritual men that let their understandings in the book along side the carnal mans ways and history. I dont reject the history within the Bible...I take it very seriously. Just because though you have a history of men and what they did, doesnt make it so that God backed all these actions and behaviors.

I will repeat myself, but only for so long. Its not so much for a individual I will do this, but for all.

You have asked me to elaborate on a couple things and I did. I tell you what is of carnal natures in the Bible and that the Bible is only milk. You only then come back to tell me to read it again.

I walked the Christian path...I know the stories, I have many bibles and many study books for the Bible. I have searched the Hebrew language, I have studied the holidays and practices. I am thankful that I am able to share my experiences of my faith with others and I am thankful for all others experiences that influenced me and my ways. I am at peace more then ever and will never stop reading the book.

I mention why the Bible is not fully spiritual in teaching, due to ways of flesh that bond God's ways with human ways. If one cant let go of the idea that it wasnt God who told men to write a book they will see God as a very Earthly nature image. This is meant to be this way, for it is a marker, to show ones growth and understanding.

There is no stronger place that Gods word is perfect and untouchable, then life itself. All books have to be discerned, for they are written by men. The carnal natures in the OT show this and show how easy it is to get the masses to believe something that is not so, such as salvation through blood.

We all have a direct link, we dont need any other man or object to get to God, find God, know God. It is a process, it takes time, it takes humbling, it takes selflessness, it takes patients, it takes forgiveness to self and other selves, it takes an honest heart, it takes a will to face one's inner self, it takes the will to pick up our crosses and place Earthly attachments apone it, carry the load and walking in the way. The law of reaping what we sow still stands, just as I speak words, I must be ready to stand up for those words to all that hear them after I die.

Appreciate your concern of my 'fuzziness'....but I have never had so much clarity in my path. I have never been so sure about anything in my life...hence sharing this path has became a life purpose. I am dedicated to sharing with others that they are worthy to seek God and the Holy Spirit will guide them.

Thanks for sharing thoughts, I think its great to have both sides of the coin showing for others.

My best always
LV



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 



Do you even realize that you don't know the meaning of the words?

The church Jesus is referring to in that verse is not at all talking about the "church". In the time of Jesus, a place of worship was called a synagogue or temple.

The church Jesus is establishing with peter is within a person. It is built out of that which is seen as rich in the eyes of god, wisdom and understanding. As such, it is present on earth, and in heaven as Jesus says.

It is also because these people have wisdom and understanding that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " Even though the body may die.


The verse I quoted is totally irrelevant from the point I was trying to make. I could have used any of the 111 verses that contain the word Church,I chose this one at random, And am not interested in debating what is meant by the word Church in the Bible.



And you have absolutely no room at ALL to accuse someone of repeating themselves in order to affirm their own positions. When you yourself have refused on multiple occasions to address verses and so forth that have been given to you.


LV has given me no reference to any Bible verses at all. Is this about you or her? I think I have made myself clear with you.


Do you even know the father at all?
apparently not like you.



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Its quite obvious that your view of the Bible and God differs dramatically from mine, and is very hard for me to have a biblical debate against your ideological views. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that there cant be a debate until we have a clear understanding as to what the Bible says.


[edit on 12-12-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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WOW!!! 8 pages long and still we have debating. It must be gods will...

I have always thought it to be advantageous (for me) to look at things from both sides of the argument. Play "devils advocate" if you will.

For just a moment, try and drop your belief and argue the other side and see how it either strengthens or dismantles your own belief. The buffet line has many items on it or it would not be a buffet.

So, would the christians be truly happy if every single person on this planet was a christian?

Would the muslims be happy if the entire world converted to their faith?

Would the catholics be content if every human being was a catholic?

I really don't see that it would bring the results that most think.

Try and prove your belief as if you were having to present it in a court of law. I will be your lawyer. Of course, my name will be Weinstein or some Jewish name. Why in the world would a court listen to anything other. They are the chosen ones if you take the bible literally.


"Your Honor, my client is under the belief that god created the earth in 7 days, 6000 years ago and a guy named jesus of nazareth was put to death so he could save the world.

The judge says, "Councillor, does your client have any proof of this"?

"No your Honor. my client bases this on faith".

"Councillor, I have faith my car will start in the morning and sometimes my faith isn't right. Case dismissed".

If a person is going to bet their eternity on a belief that is passed down from generation to generation, I'm under the impression they would want to make damn sure they have their facts correct before they go selling their product to others.

I, as of yet, have not been able to do that by trying to get facts from the bible or any other religion for that matter.

I am barely able to get past the first 3 verses in the beginning of Genesis before my mind starts asking, "Who wrote that down"? "Who was there to see all this to give a firsthand account of it"? "How did this account actually make in onto paper in written form"? You can also try this with any book....

If you cannot have a base to the theory, then it is flawed from the start and it is like having erroneous formulas to base geometry on.

I can no longer try and examine a story as intricate as the bible story knowing that the creator made flawed creations from the start. If the premise is flawed, then the entire equation is flawed and all of this is supposed to be coming from a "perfect" creator.

I was finally able, a few years back, to lose my fear of god, satan, hell and death and it has opened up my mind to many wonderful things. Instead of seeing the world as this evil place you walk around in waiting for the bad old devil to snare you into his latest trap, I am able to see what a wonderful, diverse place we have in the universe. If we were all trying to get off this planet in a hurry due to some disease, I'll bet we could all "become as one" and work together pretty quickly.

Maybe that's what it is gonna take...who knows?

peace and be happy...

peas



posted on Dec, 12 2009 @ 11:50 PM
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reply to post by theonlyrusty
 


Excellent post Rusty. Rational, considered and well delivered.
I find these threads of great interest, mainly due to a complete lack of comprehension regarding the appeal of religion.

However the whole argument of Jesus was real because it's in the bible/ the bible is real because i say so, have become tiresome.

@Oliveoil, I have asked you before can you think outside the book ?

Jesus may have been one person or an amalgamation of many condensed into one "messiah."
So in saying that, is it the individual that is important or the message ?
Which version of the book is truth ? and how do you know ?

How did the Council of Nicea in about 300AD know truth from lie and choose what to include or discard, was it divine inspiration ?

What happened to the Unicorns and dragons ? (they are mentioned more than once)

( An interested non-believer wishes to know)
Finally I have read your book, twice in fact. I have also read other religious texts.
My life remained full, happy and contented afterwards but still free of "faith".

Live well, laugh loud and never judge a diety by his [unauthorized] ghostwritten biography.



[edit on 12-12-2009 by EdCase512]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by theonlyrusty
 


Hello!

True True, such things cant be proven, and some greatly see no need in discussing then, sense no evidence can be offered throughout. But still...discussing and sharing thoughts is good, it helps us sift our feelings on things and helps us be challenged in what we think.

I dont think this world or dimension or whatever is where agreement and unity happen (again, belief's here, not facts). I do think that the united consciousness of 'all' gets stirred in a direction that leads to a opportunity for unity though, somewhere on this journey.

You mentioned that disease might be the catalysts for uniting as one....Im thinking even a alien invasion might not do the trick.

Im slowly seeing that this world might be just what it looks like, as is, confusion.....


I still hope to meet all on the other side
and love engaging in such talks. I think some of it might be the psychological interests in humans behaviors and thought processes....it never gets boring to study such things, there are always sweet surprises observing others thoughts.

I was thinking about belief...and logical thinking...for I am pro for both. I wonder if we didnt have a mind that could imagine....we might not have beliefs. A dark feeling came over me, at this very idea. I sure do love imagination. Could we have logical thinking and no imagination? Im thankful to be human today!

My best to all always



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
The verse I quoted is totally irrelevant from the point I was trying to make. I could have used any of the 111 verses that contain the word Church,I chose this one at random, And am not interested in debating what is meant by the word Church in the Bible.


And every other reference to it that you would mention are of Paul and so forth, outside Matthew 18. In the manner of Matthew 18, we are a "church" here and now on these forums.

But really, what we do here is help each other build the true church that is within.

The point being that the "church" on earth is not the authority it claims based on those few passages.



LV has given me no reference to any Bible verses at all. Is this about you or her? I think I have made myself clear with you.


It's not about her or me, it was about you. You see, there are certain things in which you will always be able to "push another down" with. And when you accused her of such, then that is what you were doing.

Does anyone ever present their opinions in a context other than them being right? No. Every man(woman) will think they are right. That is a given. It should be understood and accepted as part of life. If any of us thought we were wrong, then we would simply change our minds.

You are no different, so to accuse people of such things is hypocritical and shouldn't be done. Yes, it is equally frustrating for every one, but that is just the reality of it.


apparently not like you.


And do you believe that is because I am more special than you? Surely I am not. So why don't you seek it? Will you ever find that relationship in the book? Obviously not.

Do you think the holy spirit just recites the Bible to you? Do you think the father will just read the bible to you? No. It is something so much greater than that, and so much greater than the bible could ever truly express.

That is what you don't seem to get. It's not just about the book. There are actual things you will experience. Take John 14:20 for example. "On that day, you will know". It's an actual experience. Certain things and events will happen to you etc.

[edit on 12/13/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 07:28 AM
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reply to post by EdCase512
 



@Oliveoil, I have asked you before can you think outside the book ?
Jesus may have been one person or an amalgamation of many condensed into one "messiah."
So in saying that, is it the individual that is important or the message ?


In this case the message that was delivered was not only what he taught but also as the OP refuses to acknowledge, that he died to save us. (Cor 5:13-15 Rom 5:18 1Thess 5:10) His death effects not only the relatively small amount of people he taught, but the whole human race.(soteriology). His death was as a ransom to redeem sinners(mk 10:45) if you happen to read Isaiah 52 and 53 he is prophesying of this.The effect of his death was to reconcile the human race with God(2 Cor 5:17-18) Not only this but Jesus' death was as a sacrifice to expiate our sins and completes and surpasses all other sacrifices in the Bible. (Heb10:10)

maybe you should ask the OP to think "inside the book", after all isnt that what we are discussing the book and not one owns personal philosophy?


[edit on 13-12-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 08:06 AM
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Here's a totally different angle to the dilemma that I thought was interesting.

It does take a little imagination though and some might not be able to handle it.

For just 15 minutes out of your lifespan on this earth, try and realize that your belief is nothing more than a thought that you think over and over. You were introduced to that thought by others (clergy, parents, school, etc.) and most of them did so from the standpoint that it would make "them" happy to tell you what to believe.

So, drop the implanted thought of a big old "guy in the sky" sitting on a marble throne, casting non believers into a lake of fire while sending his minions to a misty, cloud shrouded disneyworld, where everyone plays harps and sings psalms for the rest of eternity. You get a gold harp and I get a silver one cause you sold more subscriptions to heaven than I did. Let the jealousy begin!!!!! hahaha

Anyway, what if...just what if...this creative source that made everything, is wanting to experience this thing we call "NOW" from a bunch of different objectives, because that's what brings it pleasure and happiness. So, not only does this source want to experience things from the tiger woods perspective, it also wants to experience things from the starving ethiopians standpoint, the mafia boss, the president, the kurdish farmer, the iranian sheik, the goatherder and the southern baptist preachers perspective too!!!!

So in essence, everything that is going on is part of the plan...or, god's will.....

Do you "REALLY" want to go in there and mess up the plan that source has set forth? Some people believe it is gods will for them to go out and try and "convert" the world to their faith...others go out and think god is telling them to kill others.....what if both of you are right? What if both of you are wrong?

Step aside for a minute and just be an innocent bystander in life. Look at what is going on in the world and realize that:

1. Whatever you see on the news has already happened and you cannot do anything about it.
2. Whatever you see on the news was not caused by YOU...unless you are the subject of the news article.
3. Everything going on around you is going to go on with or without you there.
4. There are things going on that you don't know about. Just because YOU are unaware of a situation, doesn't mean that situation doesn't exist.

One thing that religions do have right (in my belief) is that everyone of us, as a source of energy, or soul, (if that's what you want to call it) , IS eternal.
Think about it. You will live forever in heaven or hell (if that's your belief) but it is telling you that you will live forever. Isn't that GRAND!!!!!

Knowing that we are eternal as source just makes me even more grateful that I have been given the opportunity to come to this physical plane and experience things from this perspective. I look at tiger or a starving kid in the same light. They are the same "LIFE" as me, just from a different perspective.

It struck me a long time ago that if I would focus on life in this fashion, I don't have time, or the brain capacity, to think about killing others or telling people that my way is the only way and they need to convert. I simply stand in awe of others because they are experiencing life from something other than from "behind my eyes".

It is impossible to think about "peace" and war at the same time. Which one is your mind focused upon?

peas



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 



And every other reference to it that you would mention are of Paul and so forth, outside Matthew 18. In the manner of Matthew 18, we are a "church" here and now on these forums.


So what your saying now is that the same meaning used in Matthew 18 is not the same meaning used in all the other verses that contain the word Church? please do explain?





Does anyone ever present their opinions in a context other than them being right? No. Every man(woman) will think they are right. That is a given. It should be understood and accepted as part of life. If any of us thought we were wrong, then we would simply change our minds.


Her opinion is based on "what ifs" and "if nots" without having any regards to what the Bible is saying.At least you bring something concrete to the table.



Do you think the holy spirit just recites the Bible to you? Do you think the father will just read the bible to you?


No. however, I believe you are lead to the Scriptures and are aided in understanding of them.


That is what you don't seem to get. It's not just about the book. There are actual things you will experience. Take John 14:20 for example. "On that day, you will know". It's an actual experience. Certain things and events will happen to you etc


I understand completely WHAT was said and done and the thing you will experience.
However, It is you who does not understand WHY these things were said and Done.How can one gain a better understanding if one refuses to understand why?

[edit on 13-12-2009 by oliveoil]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 08:33 AM
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OOOOOPPPSSS!!!!! Forgot to say this in the last post.

I am under the assumption that this "god" that everyone talks about must be fascinated with the death of his creations. "He" seems to enjoy tsunamis, obliterating entire societies (sodom and gamorrha ...(spelling?) and sacrificing his own on crosses....

OR...........You can ask yourself all day long, "What is "awesome" about MY life"? Watch where it leads your thoughts....

It's rather enlightening....(to me)...

peas



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


Respectfully I must disagree. The thread talks about meeting the "real" Jesus, I concede that it quotes your favorite book however.
I will tell you that if you regard personal philosophy as subservient to a wildly mistranslated, contradictory collection of historical writing mixed with fanciful "enhancements" and blatant propaganda, then I pity you.
Growth is painful, however it is necessary.
Your religion tells me I have freewill and yet its proponents condemn me for using it.

Isn't it about time you started asking yourself "What would Jesus do ?" and expand your thinking beyond simple acceptance of a system of control with an outdated manual ?



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by EdCase512
 



Respectfully I must disagree. The thread talks about meeting the "real" Jesus, I concede that it quotes your favorite book however.


My personal philosophy is this, If you take the Bible away we would only have word of mouth to go by, How construed would the teachings of the real Jesus be then after 2000 years?


I will tell you that if you regard personal philosophy as subservient to a wildly mistranslated, contradictory collection of historical writing mixed with fanciful "enhancements" and blatant propaganda, then I pity you.


You say all these things, but actions speak louder than words.
Please back up your statements!


Growth is painful, however it is necessary.
Your religion tells me I have freewill and yet its proponents condemn me for using it.


Nowhere in the bible does the word free will even occur.However this is your natural right.It is your choice to use it correctly.


Isn't it about time you started asking yourself "What would Jesus do ?" and expand your thinking beyond simple acceptance of a system of control with an outdated manual ?


Everyone should ask themselves that question However, How would anyone know what Jesus would do if they knew nothing about him as the Bible teaches.



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by theonlyrusty
 


I like your space in your thinking, I think open mindedness is a must here, especially if we are talking about unseen things


Why not give every scenerio possible, within the imagination, about what God is or could be and why Thee is and why we could be. To me, this is just philosophy in a mild manner.

What ever one does believe, I think its best to not place a 100% on anything, no matter how sure one is....because I think we should be open minded enough to not tell God he is the one wrong when we get where we are going....we need to leave room for God to explain Thee's version of it all one day.

I do think having a deep belief is ok. But to exclude all logical thinking or not challenge the belief with all possible questions and doubts is too safe to be sorry.

I do think when one is following a belief that teaches them they should fear something....the person should be very cautious. God doesnt want us to live in fear.....even the scientific reaction of flight or flight shows it is not a healthy way of growth or progression, often misleading a person in ways that is a reaction or thoughts to now act in such a way to 'protect' sense I feel I am in or could be in possible 'harm'. This is why I discuss with others that follow the OT image of God....psychologically, its not healthy.

We really cant expect the world to drop all beliefs and just have peace. Some are wired to deeply depend on belief to lead them through life. Some have obsessions of history and humans ways, they just love to learn. To go deeper, I believe that many have past lives that has led them to experience this life here, they have alot of unconscious reactions and feelings going on that lead them in this life. I know I know.....it is just a belief.

Belies are deeply tied to people. I have seen the pain and anguish someone experiences to think that after 30 years of a belief and being comfortable with that....that they might not of seen the whole picture. I went through alot of struggles when I began to feel like I was being shown new and different things then what I had believed all of my life. Since I grew up Christian, I had the proposed notion in my mind that these 'new understandings' coming to me could be from Satan...and OMG...run, hide, cleanse yourself....*smiles*....but oh that dark spot in my life of doubt, led me to the most surest resonation I have ever had. Releasing those fears was the best gift I could of ever done for myself.

Gosh...without going into my personal spills....I do think its good to stretch our thoughts and imagination to the limits, think of all possibilities you can think, weigh them, is there any sense to them, is there any understandings of the workings of this world we see.

As much as I cherish 'believing' and gaining understanding, I also fully feel that God doesnt expect this. I dont think God is looking down on the ones that need logic and the fact that some just have no need to believe in things they dont see and hold this against them for needing logic.

I think its obvious, that God didnt make Theeself obvious, so to believe is not needed, but it is available. Even though some see God as very obvious, all around us, in life itself.

Joy conversing to all
LV

[edit on 13-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


I just had to comment


..we need to leave room for God to explain Thee's version of it all one day.


God has been explaining "THEES" version for the last umpteen thousand years.
ITS CALLED THE BIBLE !!!!!



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:23 AM
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I cannot disprove or prove the accounts of things that happened in the bible because I was not there to personally witness it. I have to take everything that is written as "the gospel truth" (sorry...couldn't resist), written by men that didn't put it down on paper till after the events happened. I think we can all agree that there was not a "scribe" walking around every moment jotting down the most current events of the day.

In some cases, like the jesus account, it was written 40 yrs. after his supposed death on a cross. I can't even describe what happened yesterday in traffic very accurately but I am supposed to believe accounts of things that went on 2000 yrs ago as if they are "literal".

Logically, rationally and unemotionally I have to think about the fact of what happens when an author pens something and tries to fill in the memory blanks with the first good sounding thing that comes to mind.

Just to give you an example of what I mean, let's look at what happens to the structure of a belief by the simple interpolation of one letter.

God is spirit.
God is A spirit.

Amazing what happens to the entire story by changing ONE letter.

What you are saying is that everytime the writings that make up the bible were translated, no scribe ever made a mistake in their penning of the translation.

I, personally, find that hard to believe. Especially since they were translating it from many different languages and there may have been an unknown bias by the author that we don't know about.

I also have a tough time believing that there are any real golden nuggets of knowledge in the wasteland of verbal diarrhea that we know as the "King James" english. What a mouthful a garbage that version of english is.

"Thou shalt therefore bendeth downst amongst thy brethren forevermore, therefore seeth that thou shalt be blessed".

How do you translate that one?
Bet our translations differ..

peas



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by theonlyrusty
 



I cannot disprove or prove the accounts of things that happened in the bible because I was not there to personally witness it. I have to take everything that is written as "the gospel truth" (sorry...couldn't resist), written by men that didn't put it down on paper till after the events happened. I think we can all agree that there was not a "scribe" walking around every moment jotting down the most current events of the day
Paul wrote his own epistles and even signed them.You people should really do some research before posting.
I give up. Im going to the UFO forums, At least these people do research





posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


You make a great point about knowing Jesus through the book....even though I dont take the entire story about Jesus to be from his own personal perspective, I see a spiritual nature here in the book of how a person can walk a rightous path....so I too hold the teachings of Jesus dear to my heart.

I dont hold Jesus's story to one book though...there are many writings about him...if another writing also shows me a spiritual nature in a action that was told to be of Jesus...I also take this in to account as well. Is this wrong, to some it is, but has worked great for me. With discernment, I read many things about the man they call Jesus.

I still choose to hold the reminder while I read any book that I dont know who wrote this and what their agenda was while writing it. I still am cautious to think that Rome didnt influence the main accepted texts about Jesus.

I also have learned from other religions, there is a great writing that is based on Buddhism that talks about the same nature of 'giving ones life for others'. I found the same nature of Jesus within this story as well. When I think of Martin Luther King....I see a man who cared and loved his people so much, he knew his life was in danger, and still got out and walked the walked and talked things that he knew placed him in danger. Even though he knew some wanted him dead....Martin Luther King still stood tall and didnt back down from his beliefs. He was willing to give his life of flesh for what resonated within him. We can learn from many others. We can also learn from others about what we 'dont' want to be. We use all things around us to weigh and measure what our 'path is' and what are 'path is not'.

Also...I was never trying to have a biblical debate with you, I stay away from quoting the Bible. I try my best to talk from my Spirit.

You said we cant have a real debate until we both had clear understanding of what the Bible says. If we both had the same understandings of what it says, there would be no need of this entire conversation. Since we dont agree on what all is said, this creates a ground for perect debating...but debating on things that have no proof, like a former poster said, is somewhat of a merry go round. I still think it is very healthy for those that accept a challenege to their core being. What would humans be if they didnt challenege eachothers thoughts and didnt share ideas? We learn from others, we use others to sift our own thoughts and to see how we feel about our stance.

In the end, I think we both leave eachother in peace and love with best wishes to the other.

LV



posted on Dec, 13 2009 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 



You said we cant have a real debate until we both had clear understanding of what the Bible says. If we both had the same understandings of what it says, there would be no need of this entire conversation.

You have no understanding, so I guess this makes your statement correct.


Reading books about the Bible and actually reading the Bible are two different things.



[edit on 13-12-2009 by oliveoil]





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