Killed in the Name of Christ

reply to post by LDragonFire

I admitted already that atheist governments like Stalin murdered millions, but how does that justify this topic? More were killed in Christ name than Stalin's name. More were killed in Christs name than all of the leaders mentioned.

Well if you add up the numbers you posted you do not even scratch the numbers of Stalin and the others. It is also a matter of time, ratio, and when these acts were carried out.
Im not christian and i have the brain power to not hate a whole group because of the actions of a few, nor am i ignorant enough to hate the actions of a whole group because of the actions of a few. The things you name were a very long time ago in a time where any athiest scientist would have said the earth was flat, people were dumb.
There are still people alive today that can give first hand accounts on what Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao Zedong had done. Note the mass murdering present day athiests kind of backs up the theory that bad people do bad things but that kind of shoots down the argument that religion is the cause of all these bad things. When you really look at the numbers, the churches of the world have really cleaned up their act (for the most part) while the athiests have just gone into a Commie Red Mass murdering dark age, lets look at the past 500, who stopped offing people by the thousands? That is right the church, who started killing people off by the millions?
And do not even bring the OT and saying millions were killed in sodomy and gomora land, the first born in egypt and maintain that the bible and god is a magical fairy tale and BS. It is unlogical to say that something is a myth and then say it is real. It would be like me saying the whole holocaust thing was a hoax and it never happened but may hittler rot in hell for all the people he killed durring the holocaust.

This really drives me crazy more than anything else, it is a never ending argument, it just turns into another way for us to separate from each other, and to bad mouth one another, most of us here on this site are fairly smart and i dont really understand why we all keep bickering about our faiths, when believers are involved its hypocracy for the word tells us not to judge, and when non believers start the bickering they themselves are engaging in the same behavior they despise the believers for. It is hate like this which keeps us from reaching our full potential and it really saddens me.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Now this is not just the modern church but has been a predominate thing since Christianity rose to be the dominate religion in the western world when in 315 The Roman Empire by edict started destroying Pagan Temples and worshipers as well as priests. These people were the first to die in Christ's name.

Just a technicality...but the first people to die in Christ's name were the infant male children 2 yrs old and under who were slaughtered by King Herod when he heard the news of the birth of christ.

It was known as the "Massacre of the Innocents".
Makes you wonder if "Mass" is just an abbreviation, doesn't it?

The infants, known in the Church as the Holy Innocents, have been claimed as the first Christian martyrs. Traditional accounts number them at more than ten thousand, though more conservative estimates put their number in the low dozens.

reply to post by LDragonFire

Modern Christianity teaches many things that are not in the bible or taught by Christ, if he is the way I find it interesting hardly anyone follows his teachings or his example. Now this is not just the modern church but has been a predominate thing since Christianity rose to be the dominate religion in the western world when in 315 The Roman Empire by edict started destroying Pagan Temples and worshipers as well as priests. These people were the first to die in Christ's name. Many of the people who destroyed and killed were Christian Priests doing Gods work

You can line up all your twisted history facts you want.
You are no authority on any of this.
I doubt if you even have any reason other than your hate for
the making of this thread.
Hate ! Now there's a motivater.

With all my heart I wish individuals that say things like this would open their hearts. The truth is there if only you're willing to accept it.

Once you've lived the life, walked the walked, talked the talked, and gained the knowledge that is set aside FOR YOU, it all becomes so clear. It literally throws the "search for truth" out the window. It's no longer a search.

And for those that think religion somehow inhibits the advancement of science, quite the contrary. One must only look to those 2000 year old "fairy tales" to realise this. I'll give you just a few examples and leave the rest to you:

The wind has WEIGHT/ Then? Wind was weightless...science now>>wind has weight / Bible - "When He imparted weight to the wind, And meted out the waters by measure" (Job 28:25)

The earth suspended in space / Then? some muscle-bound god held it up...science now>>suspended in space / Bible - He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. (Job 26:7)

The earth is round / Then? the earth is flat...science now>> earth is round / Bible - He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (Isaiah 40:22)

Pleiades and Orion are gravitationally bound star systems / Then? No idea honestly...science now>>pleiades and orion gravitationally boundy / bible - "Can you unbind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?" (Job 38:31)


Realise, there are many many more. These are only small excerpts from only 2 different books.

A2D

Originally posted by destroyhate
This really drives me crazy more than anything else, it is a never ending argument, it just turns into another way for us to separate from each other, and to bad mouth one another, most of us here on this site are fairly smart and i dont really understand why we all keep bickering about our faiths, when believers are involved its hypocracy for the word tells us not to judge, and when non believers start the bickering they themselves are engaging in the same behavior they despise the believers for. It is hate like this which keeps us from reaching our full potential and it really saddens me.

I don't think the motive is hate at all. Far from it.

I think many people are waking up to the lies religions have told them. When they discover these things they are traumatized. They are overwhelmed as to how they could have been so gullable about believing what they now see clearly as false doctrine.

When they bring up these controversial matters on a discussion board, I think some are looking for affirmation that others realize this, too. Their world has been shattered and they are looking for direction and deeper information. Where to go from here? What have all the lies been for?

Then, there are others on a personal crusade to try to make people see the error of their ways.

Fact is, no one can TELL another what to believe. Each has to search for answers and weigh them against reason and experience.

Zealots on either side would go further to ask about matters that cause introspection rather than demand others to listen to their side.

One is not ready for the answer until they themselves ask the questions.

reply to post by Alethea


Well like you said we cant tell each other what to believe, but the majority of threads like this end up a believer vs non believer argument, and honestly i think one of the most important things is tolerance, religion isnt causing wars or killing people, but those who cant tolerate anothers religion.

What I hate, loathe and detest is the misconception that people who call themselves Christian have anything to do with Christ.

Jesus Christ was a nurturer, a gentle man, a lover of humanity.

Stop linking anything cruel to Him.

And, you so-called Christians, do not call yourself a Christian if you are a killer or cruel in any way.

Originally posted by destroyhate
honestly i think one of the most important things is tolerance, religion isnt causing wars or killing people, but those who cant tolerate anothers religion.

I think the most important thing is truth and that calls for questions and dissecting all information.

If people had accurate information there would be no need for "tolerance".

Unfortunately, truth is not a priority to most people. Many are complacent to just accept what they are told and not rock the boat. In many religions there are dire consequences for independent thinking or for asking questions.

reply to post by Alethea


You are speaking as if your truth was the undeniable truth of the universe, im sure a christian thinks that if you would only except the truth of god then you wouldnt feel this way. If we have no proof of whose truth is right then for the time being we need to except each others views and beliefs.

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

I admitted already that atheist governments like Stalin murdered millions, but how does that justify this topic? More were killed in Christ name than Stalin's name. More were killed in Christs name than all of the leaders mentioned.

Well if you add up the numbers you posted you do not even scratch the numbers of Stalin and the others. It is also a matter of time, ratio, and when these acts were carried out.

And this makes a difference? Wrong is wrong! I have repeatedly stated that it is impossible to give a complete list of the deaths. The shear number of time that has pasted and the wholesale slaughter of heathens repeats itself throughout history.

Im not christian and i have the brain power to not hate a whole group because of the actions of a few, nor am i ignorant enough to hate the actions of a whole group because of the actions of a few. The things you name were a very long time ago in a time where any athiest scientist would have said the earth was flat, people were dumb.

You apparently have not read this thread.

There are still people alive today that can give first hand accounts on what Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao Zedong had done. Note the mass murdering present day athiests kind of backs up the theory that bad people do bad things but that kind of shoots down the argument that religion is the cause of all these bad things. When you really look at the numbers, the churches of the world have really cleaned up their act (for the most part) while the athiests have just gone into a Commie Red Mass murdering dark age, lets look at the past 500, who stopped offing people by the thousands? That is right the church, who started killing people off by the millions?

hmmm how many people this year was killed by atheist? How many killed in the name of there religion????

And do not even bring the OT and saying millions were killed in sodomy and gomora land, the first born in egypt and maintain that the bible and god is a magical fairy tale and BS. It is unlogical to say that something is a myth and then say it is real. It would be like me saying the whole holocaust thing was a hoax and it never happened but may hittler rot in hell for all the people he killed durring the holocaust.

Um you really need to read what I have posted, I never once said that God is a myth or fairy tale. Good thing your not a Christian because lying will send you straight to hell.

I don't hate Christians at all. I do have a great many questions and I have used this site to explore these things. I firmly believe that Christianity has been corrupted from the very start, right after Christ ascended up to heaven.

I also wonder just how much the average Christian knows about there faith.

The main reason why I post these questions here is in real life when you pose these questions to Christians, they stop speaking to you.

You may label me all you want, you can also deny what I say. In my eyes that makes you just as guilty and the sick and twisted people that have run the Christian religions throughout history and the same reason why these atrocities will continue in our future.

reply to post by LDragonFire

hmmm how many people this year was killed by atheist? How many killed in the name of there religion????

Hard to find out kim jung il runs a pretty tight ship and they do not really report in to anyone.
But killed in the name "there" [their] religion is a hard one because of what is going on right now when a muslim kills an american it is because of religion but when an american shoots one it is just war

I also wonder just how much the average Christian knows about there faith.

The main reason why I post these questions here is in real life when you pose these questions to Christians, they stop speaking to you.

i bet you are just concerned

[edit on 18-11-2009 by zaiger]

reply to post by zaiger


Bingo!!!! you win a 1000 super secret ninja points. Christians have ruled the western world e.i. the Mediterranean, Europe, North and South America, and parts of Asia and Australia so it is almost impossible to come up with the exact figures for a death toll..... The Christian Conquers wrote the history books, and just how much in the history books are not accurate or do not show the whole story??? I have seen estimates of upto 150 million people in the last 1400 years........Have died or have been killed.......... Even if that number is off by 50% it still is a amazing death toll.

Remember Pope John Paul II admitted to past atrocities and apologized publicly.

I also under stand that we can't judge God or Jesus Christ for sins committed by man, and I would never try........

I was raised in Church I do not attend church and haven't for 25 years because they would tell us things and I would research and low and behold Jesus didn't preach about these things......He is the way, follow his teachings.........What part of thou salt Not Kill don't people understand?

Enlighten yourself about what you put your faith in, if it acts evil it most likely is....

1000 years of Christian Barbarity


* edit to add * Wow u just called me a troll....


[edit on 18-11-2009 by LDragonFire]

reply to post by LDragonFire

I also wonder just how much the average Christian knows about there faith.

The main reason why I post these questions here is in real life when you pose these questions to Christians, they stop speaking to you.

Ask away. I'm probably what you would consider "the average Christian". I'll answer any questions you may have concerning my faith and why I believe. I'll even do so in a polite manner unlike those that you may encounter elsewhere. I don't for a minute believe that I'll convert you nor is this my attempt to do so. I'm just here to perhaps spread knowledge and awareness of what "faith" really is and why the preconceptions of todays church, faith, the gospels, and Jesus Christ and/or The Father are very misleading. I won't stop speaking to you either. If I don't have sufficient answers then I'll tell you flat-out that I don't have the answers. We are human after all. I just ask that you treat me with respect and I'll do the same(regardless really but still )

A2D

reply to post by LDragonFire

Bingo!!!! you win a 1000 super secret ninja points. Christians have ruled the western world e.i. the Mediterranean, Europe, North and South America, and parts of Asia and Australia so it is almost impossible to come up with the exact figures for a death toll..... The Christian Conquers wrote the history books, and just how much in the history books are not accurate or do not show the whole story??? I have seen estimates of upto 150 million people in the last 1400 years........Have died or have been killed.......... Even if that number is off by 50% it still is a amazing death toll.

The same could be said for the other side, athiest/communist leaders change their history and the death tolls are still rising as new mass graves are discovered.
The fact that christians wrote history and had innacurate numbers is correct but at the time the numbers could have been slanted the other way. At that time killing thousands of heathens would have been viewed as a good thing so the numbers could have been pumped up but that is my opinion.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Hey,

I am a Christian and I am not afraid of questions.

What I believe in is that Jesus Christ is the saviour of mankind and represents all that is good in the world.

Ask away.

reply to post by LDragonFire


Dear DragonFire,
You said "enlighten yourself about what you put your faith in" yet you only speak of atrocities committed by the church established by man and having men as the heirarchy. I dare not put my FAITH in men.

Anybody that has been killed has not been killed in the name of Christ. Perhaps it may look that way but the enemy is clever. You'll know a good tree by good fruit and a bad tree by bad fruit and surely enough murder is as rotten as fruit gets.

Originally posted by dalan.
Don't forget that Christians suppressed the sciences, remember what they did to Galileo?

I like it when modern Christians try to dissociate themselves from Catholicism...it is entertaining. I do not care what denomination you are, track the history of your religion and your sub-genre of the Christian faith probably came from the Holy Roman Empire at some point in time. That would include everything that you believe about Christianity....

Religion is the biggest waste of time for society.

Christians? Seriously? That's the Roman Catholics yet again.

Perhaps people are initiated to Christianity through "sub genres" AKA denominations stemming from Catholicism, but in the end, I believe those who are truly Christ-followers are those who get past what the establishment thinks and mature to find that real Christianity is a faith, not a religion.

While I may pray religiously, attempt to read my bible religiously, be kind even to those I dislike religiously, I am not in the religion of Christianity, oft constrewed as the Catholic or a vast number of Protestant churches, I am in a religion/regimen that I have created for myself in an effort to live out the faith that stems from the bible, the faith in a living and real Savior, the Son of God, all through the Holy Spirit. It all does indeed come from the Bible.

If it's doctrine or theology of only man applied to Christian Faith, it's wrong and thus not Christian Faith, but a religion in and of itself, manmade as mine is, but not based biblically and faithfully based, or it could be a once valid religion perverted in ways that prevent it from being (as) effective in the belivers' lives, as well as in the lives of those it tries to exemplify itself to.

Even the Jewish faith had this problem with the Pharisees.

As for the murder and all, the people in the OT knew of a coming savior, but expected an earthly king of might and power. That in mind, they not only followed God's word for conquest and destruction of non-belivers, but they took Isreal as well. It was all righteous killing, not murder, except for times where people did what they thought instead of God, such as Moses killing the Egyptian Taskmaster. There were, however, instances of compassion towards those in the bull's eye:

*When God was about to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the cities if there were X number of righteous people in them. God said no. Then Abraham asked the same question if there were righteous people with a lesser number. Every time he dropped the number and got the same answer. The fact is that God would not have destroyed those cities if there were any righteous people in them.

*In another example, Abimelech, king of Gerar, took Abraham's wife because he lied saying that she was his sister. However, God prevented Abimelech from sleeping with her and warned him in a dream. Abimelech heeded God's warning and was spared from death.

*Eliphaz the Temanite, in his discussions with Job, acknowledged that God did not judge the innocent with the guilty, but that those who act sinfully will incur God's judgment. So, God does not destroy the righteous along with the evil.

--------------------------

Only after those who came to a true knowledge and faith in Jesus as Messiah did God give man a second chance that those who believed could follow. While wars raged then and do now, as well as holy wars, inlcuding the Crusades, that was man's sin, not God's. God has never and will never sin, He only destroys or punishes those who don't repent. There may be negative consequences for those with true faith in Christ, even death should they sin, but they don't suffer eternal damnation as those who live lifes of unrepentant sin and blasphemy do. Jesus' blood forgives it all. And if you mention the whole blasphemy thing, know that I belive that only someone who doesn't belive and won't truly have faith in Christ as Savior can even blaspheme and truly mean it and receive punishment. The bible already explicitly states that His blood covered it all, it's just a matter of catching the implication.

-------------------------

Re: The post below me. The Trinity isn't entirely understandable by man, but it's understandable enough that even children get it after a while.

Basically, you have God. God is a Spirit. What we call God is the Creator. Then, you have the Son, Jesus. Then you have the Spirit of God. All three exist as one, but separate at the same time. Equate this to our bodies being separate from our minds in that many reflexes are built into the spinal cord and not the brain, etc. Then you have our consciousness, which exists within the brain, and then you have the soul/spirit, which is the eternal essence of God-given life that makes our carbon based bodies different from animals in that we don't just follow instincts. Three in one, one in three. The human creation actually mirrors the God it was created in the image of, and thus it isn't just a physical thing...it's not just about God being a humanoid.

[edit on 18-11-2009 by joesomebody]

reply to post by spellbound


Spellbound,
I believe I have spoken to you before and you're quite knowledgeable if my memory serves me. If I could I'd just like to hear what you have to say about the biblical "holy trinity".

reply to post by zaiger


And what side is Good and what side is Evil??? Can you tell the difference???

Shouldn't you be able too?

So non believers killing mass amounts of humans = bad

But

Believers killing mass amounts of humans = good?

Both sides have two main things in common, they both kill and they both have justification for killing, in there own minds anyway.


Most of my questions are in the form of threads here on ATS.

edit to add
Speaking of the holy trinity A contradiction in the bible


[edit on 18-11-2009 by LDragonFire]