Hi all,

I've been tossing this idea around in my head for a while (perhaps for too long !) as it's starting to make some kind of sense to me ... and may even be possible sometime in the (near/far) future.

Basically I was pondering of ways that intelligent species could communicate with each other irrespective of the distance between their locations. I'm not talking about what is normally referred to as faster than light communication and definitely not referring to physical faster than light travel.
To be more accurate, I'm actually referring to INSTANT (no time elapsed) communication between any points ANYWHERE in the universe.

There is one proviso however (isn't there always ?) ... and thats that the civilizations involved are sufficiently technologically advanced that they can manipulate the fundamental constants of the universe. These constants include pi, e, phi, etc, etc


Ok, the constant I'm going to pick on is everyone's favourite ... pi ... which if you're not already aware, is a value that is obtained by using the circumference and diameter of ANY circle and working out the ratio between these two values.
In fact, there are a multitude of different methods that can be used to determine the value of pi but the circumference/diameter ratio is one of the oldest and simplest methods devised thousands of years ago.

It also makes no difference as to how big or small is the circle that you decide to use. You can measure the circumference and diameter of a circular coin or you can measure the circumference and diameter of the sun ... both methods will result in EXACTLY the same value of pi.

A rough approximation for pi is 3.1415926
But pi happens to be one of those special values that in fact just goes on forever without ending ... here's a slightly more accurate representation of pi

3.14159265358979323846264338327950288 ....

the dots at the end (elipses) are used mathematically as shorthand to indicate that the value of pi simply goes on indefinitely and never (as far as we know) ends or terminates.

Pi also has the special property that the sequence of numbers after the decimal point never repeat and are unique. The value of Pi has been calculated to many, many millions of decimal places and this property apparently holds true.


Ok, enough preamble ... I'm sure you all get the idea of pi and what it represents from a mathematical point of view ... so let's move on to instant communication across the known universe !


Now because pi is a direct result of two physical measurements of a circle, that means that if we assume that the laws of physics and fundamental constants are valid across the universe - and there's no reason at the moment to suspect they're not - this means that when we calculate pi here on Earth and some alien specie calculates pi on the other side of the universe, then both of us will arrive at IDENTICAL values for pi no matter how many decimal places we choose to examine.

Another point to bear in mind is that it's not strictly necessary to use ALL the digits after the decimal point and they could be considered essentially superfluous to virtually any mathematical calculation that requires pi to be used as part of the calculation.
What I'm trying to say here is that if you did a mathematical calculation that used a value of pi with say, 1 million digits after the decimal point; and then did the same calculation but used a shorter value of pi with say,only 500 thousand digits after the decimal point, you'd find that the results of both calculations were for all intents and purposes, identical.

So, we finally get to my point (about time, I hear you all say !) ....


We're assuming that we have 2 civilizations on opposite sides of the universe who wish to communicate with each other and have reached the stage of technological development that they can actually alter or manipulate fundamental constants.
(Note ... I'm open to any kind of current proof that says such an ability will ALWAYS be an impossibility !)

So to communicate INSTANTLY across the universe, specie1 would use the pi constant and decide to pick a starting point say, EXACTLY 10 billion digits AFTER the decimal point. The reason they'd pick so far from the decimal point is to (hopefully) not generate any noticeable and unwanted side effects throughout the universe in anything that makes use of pi such as calculations, circles, etc.

Now, from this starting point, they would place subsequent digits into groups of two ... not clear ? ok, let me try it this way ...

Lets say that the digits of pi from position 2 billion onwards look something like this:
..... 3729873562290112826378 ...

Now group them in pairs giving the following

37 29 87 35 62 29 01 12 82 63 78


Lets decide to use the following message: HELLO and encode it into pi. (both species speak/read English !)

The letter H is the 8th letter of the alphabet so we replace our 1st pair (37) with 09
The letter E is the 5th letter of the alphabet so we replace our 2nd pair (29) with 05
The letter L is the 12th letter`of the alphabet so we replace our 3rd pair (87) with 12
The letter L is the 12th letter`of the alphabet so we replace our 4th pair (35) with 12
The letter O is the 15th letter of the alphabet so we replace our 5th pair (62) with 15

We now have modified the original values of
37 29 87 35 62 29 01 12 82 63 78
with these replacement values, giving
09 05 12 12 15 29 01 12 82 63 78


Having finished encoding our message, the technological button is pressed that takes this new modified value of pi and replaces the original value of pi throughout the universe and the change takes place INSTANTLY.
Now because the value of pi is UNIVERSAL, this should mean that no matter where you are in the universe and you re-measure the value of pi, you will now see the modified version.
If you're aware that the modifications start from a certain pre-defined starting location, you'll be able to read of those new pair values and convert them back into their language characters and see the word "HELLO"

So effectively, a message has been transmitted across the universe and received with absolutely NO TIME involved !

It just occured to me that this method wouldn't be restricted to sending simple text messages only, because by replacing the original digit pairs values with values derived from digital information, you could also send graphics, video and sound ..

[edit on 12/11/09 by tauristercus]

I really like where you are going....

However, this is where you lost me-

~the technological button is pressed that takes this new modified value of pi and replaces the original value of pi throughout the universe~

Please explain further...fascinating post!

This is either correct, ground breaking physics in the making.

Or a giant misunderstanding of PI and physics as a whole.


Hmmm...so hard to pick one.

I guess I'll just wait until you become a huge famous mind with this theory, or just a past thread that gets forgotten by everyone and anyone.

This really shouldn't take long at all.

Originally posted by Signals
I really like where you are going....

However, this is where you lost me-

~the technological button is pressed that takes this new modified value of pi and replaces the original value of pi throughout the universe~

Please explain further...fascinating post!

A very good question !

This is where we wait for some future technological breakthrough/discovery to be made that allows the fundamental constant to be manipulated in the manner that I described.

Unfortunately not knowing how this future technology would work, I glossed over it by using the "technological button" metaphor.

It may be that fundamental constants will NEVER be able to be manipulated by ourselves or any other species ... but I'm a firm believer that if nature can create something (in this case the fundamental constants), then it's only a matter of time before we humans learn HOW nature accomplished that feat and then do the same as nature or perhaps even do better !

So do I believe that someday this technology will be available ? Yes, I certainly do !

Originally posted by Mr Mask
This is either correct, ground breaking physics in the making.

Or a giant misunderstanding of PI and physics as a whole.


Hmmm...so hard to pick one.

I guess I'll just wait until you become a huge famous mind with this theory, or just a past thread that gets forgotten by everyone and anyone.

This really shouldn't take long at all.

Let me make a prediction here .... i predict this thread will get a reasonable number of responses and then fade away into the sunset as every thread here on ATS eventually does

Interesting idea. Couple of queries:

You explain that pi is calculated using various methods and in this case the diameter of a circle and it's circumference. Therefore it cannot be altered unless the diameter and circumference are altered also to form the new figure, thus resulting in a new method of calculating the new pi? i.e. No longer using a circle at all, more ovoid. Changing the answer is one thing but one must also change the equation to balance. Your theory not only alters the answer but would also change reality, and all to transmit a message...

Also, and slightly more pertinent, wouldn't a point in technological advancement wherby a civilisation can manipulate universal constants come AFTER the technological ability to say, access hyperspace or achieve ridiculous faster than light speeds?

It's a very interesting theory, I just can't get past the whole magic button part.

Sendran.

Originally posted by tauristercus



Ok, the constant I'm going to pick on is everyone's favourite ... pi ... which if you're not already aware, is a value that is obtained by using the circumference and diameter of ANY circle and working out the ratio between these two values.
In fact, there are a multitude of different methods that can be used to determine the value of pi but the circumference/diameter ratio is one of the oldest and simplest methods devised thousands of years ago.

For a minute there I thought the circle your were going to use to calculate pi was the circumference of the sun vs. a diameter through the sun. Them general relativity would allow your to twist pi by varying the gravitaional length of the two by playing with the desity of the plasma in the sun (say dropping a moon in to add mass to one section for a short time until it all balanced out again.

But I guess your button is a more eligant solution so I yield the string back to you.

Originally posted by Sendran
Interesting idea. Couple of queries:


You explain that pi is calculated using various methods and in this case the diameter of a circle and it's circumference. Therefore it cannot be altered unless the diameter and circumference are altered also to form the new figure, thus resulting in a new method of calculating the new pi? i.e. No longer using a circle at all, more ovoid. Changing the answer is one thing but one must also change the equation to balance. Your theory not only alters the answer but would also change reality, and all to transmit a message...

You're absolutely correct that altering a fundamental constant WILL have an impact on reality and if it could be achieved, would be an incredibly dangerous technology ... imaging changing the value of Pi from 3.1415926 .... to say, 6.1415926 ... I can't even start to imagine how that would mess up the entire universe !

Thats why in my intro post, I picked a spot a few billion decimal places deep inside pi for that very reason that I didn't want physical reality to be obviously altered.
I doubt that anyone could see any physical differences in the shape of a circle if the 2 billionth decimal digit in Pi was changed ... it would still look like a circle ... but change the 2nd decimal place in Pi and I'm sure reality would start to look different !

Also, and slightly more pertinent, wouldn't a point in technological advancement wherby a civilisation can manipulate universal constants come AFTER the technological ability to say, access hyperspace or achieve ridiculous faster than light speeds?

True again, but modifying a fundamental constant would be the ULTIMATE method for transmitting information across ANY distance and would do it instantly.
No matter how much faster than light your technology allowed you to travel, x5 or x100 or even x1000000, it would still take SOME time to get from point A to point B.

Have you read the book series The Well of Souls by happenstance?

A lot of my far out ideas came from that book series.

Time, reality are all constants to their perception. What if we just change our perception of the constant. Would this not change the constant?

Manipulating a constant in a relative area of space would not fundamentally change the constant throughout the universe. My belief. Who could know at this level of our knowledge of the universe.

[edit on 11/11/2009 by endisnighe]

Just read your post on DNA.

Very fun read and way better thought pattern then the one here (IMHO).

Making you what? A better theoretical-biologist then radical-mathematician?

Well, right or wrong on any of your posts, I will say "good job" and salute you.

But I still think your FTL-PI-centered theory is a bad investment. Then agian, what the hell do I know?

Eh...win some, lose some.

Unfortunately, the value of pi can change. In a flat space (so-called "Euclidean" space), pi has a well-defined value that is a constant. However, in a curved (non-Euclidean) space, this value changes.

According to physics, space does curve, which means that pi doesn't have a constant value.

Your idea, BTW, sounds like the concept that Carl Sagan offered in his fascinating novel, "Contact". In it, a computer calculating pi to outrageous lengths, found it suddenly generating repeating sequences and patterns. After much dithering around, the scientists found that it was an encoded message, some sort of image (I don't recall what, now). The concept of some intelligence being able to manipulate universal constants was mind-boggling. What an amazing imagination Sagan had...

But the idea wouldn't work in real space, because pi is not a constant. As space curves, the ratio of diameter to circumference varies.

You can not alter pi in any way from a mathematical point of view. Any Euclidean geometry will be forced to have pi be exactly what it is or you would create a contradiction. Of course if space-time is warped then you might alter any attempted measurement of pi due to the fact that you were measuring it in non space time. In fact on the surface of a sphere say on the earth, the measured pi can get as small as 2 if you look at a great circle.

If you were able to alter space time I'm afraid it would take time to propagate to the other side of the universe. No doubt it would travel no faster than the speed of light, though there is some controversy about this.

Finally as far as the entanglement idea goes, we should already have a bunch of entangled pairs all over the universe if the big bang theory is correct.