Clinton calls Israeli concessions "unprecedented"

reply to post by Lazyninja


History always repeats itself because we don't learn from our mistakes.

They call ring-wingers potential terroists
Does that mean that we can call active zionists active terroists?

Seriously, isn't zionism terroism?

And if so, that's what god wants? Terroism?
I'm sorry mamabeth, that's not what god wants, that's what the devil wants.
Consider yourself fooled by the devil!

And the biblical israelites are not the one's living in Israel, those are europeans
Not the one's that Cyrus the great liberated.
The one's that Cyrus the great liberated would have looked more like palestinians than these europeans masquerading as israelis.

Have a nice day!

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Sorry,I will believe my Bible and my gut feelings first.If that brands me
a terrorist,bring it on baby.My husband and I both support Israel and her
right to occupy the land.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I believe that Jews have as much claim to Judea and Samaria as Arabs do, yes. And the region was renamed to West Bank by King Hussein of Jordan after annexing it in 1950 in order to de-Judaise it, as I've already told you. Prior to that the region was Judea and Samaria under the British Mandate.

However, in spite of their extensive claim to the land (there were many Jewish communities in the region prior to the Jordanian invasion like the city of Hebron, most of the land was bought by the Israelis, and the Israelis own the land at the moment) most Israelis are willing to give up the region to Arabs in the interests of peace. From what I can tell it's only the far right that want the land back.

The Israeli government has said they want to give them the land. They've said they want peaceful relations with a Palestinian state. They've said repeatedly that they want to resume negotiations to sort out the trickier points such as Jerusalem and Palestinian right of return. And yet Abbas is still refusing to talk because Israel won't agree to their demands before negotiations even resume.

Why is Abbas unwilling to resume talks? If he wants a Palestinian state so much, why doesn't he just resume negotiations as Netanyahu has called for on numerous occassions?

Why do you insist on painting Israel as the problem here?

[edit on 4-11-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by mamabeth


They have been offered land of their own since 1948.They don't want
the land,they just want Israel destroyed.They won't be happy until every
jew is wiped off the face of the earth.
Israel is wasting their time with all these peace talks,it's not going to
happen.Should there be a peace treaty,it will be short-lived.

reply to post by Snarf


Please don't apologize to me for mistaking me for living in the US.

But please apologize for comparing the creation of America to the apartheid State of Israel.

It doesn't work... it's the 21st century. There are standards to be respected in the international community and Israel does not meet them. Their bloody tentacles in foreign government protects them. Most problematic Israelis are EUROPEAN imperialists, who are not nomads, but have mansions in New York and homes in London. This is NOTHING like the creation of the United States, this is pure intended imperialism. If they wanted to live in peace with the Palestinians, they would not come there and change the country's name, just like they went to New York and purchase a mansion... they can go to Palestine and purchase land. To Zionists, its not about living in peace, its about taking more than a piece... and for the cheapest price... a Palestinian's life.

reply to post by TSawyer


You're right, it's wrong to compare Israel to the US. The colonization of the US was far, far worse and inhumane.

Mass slaughter, genocide, theft of land, ethnic cleansing, destruction of property and livestock, germ warfare, concentration camps, interment, it all happened. In the US. But not in Israel.

In Israel, they shared the land and gave rights and jobs and votes to the locals. They were rewarded with anti Jewish riots, pogroms, war, war, war and more war.

If the Jews had done what the European colonialists in the Americas did (or what we did in Australia, South Africa, South America), there would be no Palestinians left to complain. But instead they tried to do it the decent and civilised way and respected the local traditions and culture.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Sorry,I will believe my Bible and my gut feelings first.If that brands me
a terrorist,bring it on baby.My husband and I both support Israel and her
right to occupy the land.

Difficult to comment on a statement like this.

IMO it's intractable stances like this that have been the cause of so much human misery throughout history.

If this is what religion teaches, you can keep it. Its disgusting.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by TSawyer

 

You're right, it's wrong to compare Israel to the US. The colonization of the US was far, far worse and inhumane.

Mass slaughter, genocide, theft of land, ethnic cleansing, destruction of property and livestock, germ warfare, concentration camps, interment, it all happened. In the US. But not in Israel.

In Israel, they shared the land and gave rights and jobs and votes to the locals. They were rewarded with anti Jewish riots, pogroms, war, war, war and more war.

If the Jews had done what the European colonialists in the Americas did (or what we did in Australia, South Africa, South America), there would be no Palestinians left to complain. But instead they tried to do it the decent and civilised way and respected the local traditions and culture.

The really BIG difference here is Israel got Palestine because of America's sympathetic help. And maintains it only by the blood sweat and tears of American's who have been false flagged into it.
Israel has only dragged America into the pits of world wide do do, This is where the Marxist ideologies have always been.
Similar to what the Marxists did in Poland and the Bolsheviks did in Russia.
Now they have a two finger FU for America and the world at large?
That's why American's ----and the rest of the world find no substance with winers and ingrates that you support. We see that the butt whipping that Hilary is engaging in is just that. Not Israeli concession.
That is what this thread is about. But if you insist, Hilary will come over and change the diapers of the crying babies. But not on my tax dollar anymore.
DON"T you think America has done enough for it's foster child?
With all it's BRAVADO and Anti-Americanism--- WHY can't that arrogance stand ALONE????

Originally posted by Donny 4 million

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by TSawyer

 

You're right, it's wrong to compare Israel to the US. The colonization of the US was far, far worse and inhumane.

Mass slaughter, genocide, theft of land, ethnic cleansing, destruction of property and livestock, germ warfare, concentration camps, interment, it all happened. In the US. But not in Israel.

In Israel, they shared the land and gave rights and jobs and votes to the locals. They were rewarded with anti Jewish riots, pogroms, war, war, war and more war.

If the Jews had done what the European colonialists in the Americas did (or what we did in Australia, South Africa, South America), there would be no Palestinians left to complain. But instead they tried to do it the decent and civilised way and respected the local traditions and culture.

The really BIG difference here is Israel got Palestine because of America's sympathetic help. And maintains it only by the blood sweat and tears of American's who have been false flagged into it.
Israel has only dragged America into the pits of world wide do do, This is where the Marxist ideologies have always been.
Similar to what the Marxists did in Poland and the Bolsheviks did in Russia.
Now they have a two finger FU for America and the world at large?
That's why American's ----and the rest of the world find no substance with winers and ingrates that you support. We see that the butt whipping that Hilary is engaging in is just that. Not Israeli concession.
That is what this thread is about. But if you insist, Hilary will come over and change the diapers of the crying babies. But not on my tax dollar anymore.
DON"T you think America has done enough for it's foster child?
With all it's BRAVADO and Anti-Americanism--- WHY can't that arrogance stand ALONE????

You've got it correct my friend. With all the support they've had Israel thinks its invincible and has become arrogant. Thinks it can do anything to anybody and get away with it.

The trouble is now that it's USA and UK that are paying the price for supporting these spoilt brats. It's like having an adopted child that has been nurtured and now is an errant teenager and causing all sorts of mayhem.

Some day reality will kick in and they are going to get the biggest shock of their lives. The zionist supporters like those on here will be the first to squeal when tshtf but at least we can say we warned you.

Its a shame that peaceful Jews and others innocents are likely to suffer before the psychos are banged up. The hate mongers dont care about them though.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by bigyin]

reply to post by finemanm


Uh, yeah. If you're stealing my land, I'm not going to let you keep stealing it while we talk about the fact you're stealing it.

In fact I'd probably blow your goddamned brains out for it. Steal my land? I-don't-think-so!

It's the Palestinians showing restraint here, chico. Someone pulls the crap Israel's doing on me, they're ending up as hurt as I can make them, no lie. I imagine most Americans share the sentiment.

reply to post by Donny 4 million


You're so wrong about this Donny, and with all the respect in the world I think you need to go back to your history books.

Israel as a legal and sovereign nation was founded in 1948. America did not support Israel in any way until quite recently.

In 1948 America had an embargo against arms reaching Israel (a prime example of Truman saying one thing and doing another).

Between 1948 and 1967, Israel really could have done with outside help - Two of Israel's arch enemies (at the time), Jordan and Egypt occupied half the country and were waging a war of attrition via terrorist proxies. During this period Israel received no help, financial or military from the United States.

The US did nothing to help Israel during the Suez crisis in 56 - in fact it was the US that twisted Britain and France's arms into leaving Israel to deal with the problem on its own.

America is a very fair weather friend to Israel - and quite a recent one, and even now only because Israel and its military is a strategic asset to bolster American influence in the region.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by mattpryor]

America is a very fair weather friend to Israel - and quite a recent one, and even now only because Israel and its military is a strategic asset to bolster American influence in the region.

Good post, and ties in with what I've been saying. Current day hard line Israelis seem to think USA will always back em up. I don't think that is really the case and if USA withdraws support the hardliners will have to face their crimes on thier own. Their own fault, they've had enough warnings.

I'm interested to know what strategic military assets Israel have given to America though. I can't think of a single Israeli that has died for the American cause. Plenty of Americans dying for Israeli cause. Seems like a one way street. As they say who needs enemies when you've got friends like this.

reply to post by bigyin


I don't think any of the Israeli leadership are blind to the fact that America is fickle, and they are by no means complacent about foreign support. They know Israel's history and they know that it doesn't matter how much individual politicians support Israel, Washington will always do what is in Washington's best interests - not Israel's. They also know that historically when Israel really needs friends around the world, they are hard to find.

As for what Israel has done to earn the status of strategic ally (a dubious honour if you ask me), it depends on how you look at things. America's principal interest in the Middle East is maintaining US influence in the region, which means keeping the Egyptians, the Saudis, the Jordanians on side and keeping the Iranians, Syrians and (previously) the Iraqis contained. Primary reason for this is to maintain regional stability to provide a constant flow of oil around the world and therefore protect our economies and international trade.

Israel has played a large part in this. In 1956 Israel fought alongside the French and the British to regain control of the Suez Canal after the Egyptians nationalised it and blockaded it.

Israel has prevented Ba'athist Syria from maintaining control of Lebanon and has resisted Iranian and Syrian influence (via proxy militias) at its borders. Israel also prevented Saddam Hussein from becoming a nuclear power, and in all likelihood it will be left to Israel to stop Iran joining the club.

On a religious level (important to many US voters) Israel has shed a lot of blood to keep the holy sites in Jerusalem open to all faiths, whereas when it has been in Muslim hands (e.g. between 48 and 67) restrictions were in place on who could visit. Again one could argue that this has maintained stability as religion is a cause for a lot of conflict.

Regional stability is a goal which the US and Israel share - both for their own interests - which is why the alliance exists.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by bigyin


Out of interest, what Americans have died for the Israeli cause?

Has everyone forgot the story of King Solomon and the infant with "two" mothers?

Here is wisdom: Tell the "two" mothers that the only option is to cut the child right in half. If the land is truly holy to either of the mothers, they would rather that the land be left whole and give up their portion to the other.

Whoever gives up their portion first deserves the whole land. The other can get the hell out as the selfish jerks they are.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin

 

I don't think any of the Israeli leadership are blind to the fact that America is fickle, and they are by no means complacent about foreign support. They know Israel's history and they know that it doesn't matter how much individual politicians support Israel, Washington will always do what is in Washington's best interests - not Israel's. They also know that historically when Israel really needs friends around the world, they are hard to find.

As for what Israel has done to earn the status of strategic ally (a dubious honour if you ask me), it depends on how you look at things. America's principal interest in the Middle East is maintaining US influence in the region, which means keeping the Egyptians, the Saudis, the Jordanians on side and keeping the Iranians, Syrians and (previously) the Iraqis contained. Primary reason for this is to maintain regional stability to provide a constant flow of oil around the world and therefore protect our economies and international trade.

Israel has played a large part in this. In 1956 Israel fought alongside the French and the British to regain control of the Suez Canal after the Egyptians nationalised it and blockaded it.

Israel has prevented Ba'athist Syria from maintaining control of Lebanon and has resisted Iranian and Syrian influence (via proxy militias) at its borders. Israel also prevented Saddam Hussein from becoming a nuclear power, and in all likelihood it will be left to Israel to stop Iran joining the club.

On a religious level (important to many US voters) Israel has shed a lot of blood to keep the holy sites in Jerusalem open to all faiths, whereas when it has been in Muslim hands (e.g. between 48 and 67) restrictions were in place on who could visit. Again one could argue that this has maintained stability as religion is a cause for a lot of conflict.

Regional stability is a goal which the US and Israel share - both for their own interests - which is why the alliance exists.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by mattpryor]

I'm not well read enough to know all the history of the various countries invloved, but this is what I see:

The region was stable before Israel was invented and USA got involved. Before you say it wasn't I'm talking about stable from the point of view of western troops getting killed over it. Tbh if one ME country wants to pick a fight with another ME country thats up to them.

You talk about keeping the likes of Saudi onside, and yet 911 was carried out by Saudis, Bin Laden is a Saudi.

Speaking of 911, my view is that Israel had a lot to do with it, so that does not fit with a goal of regional stability.

Israel appears to me to be the cause of most of the regional instability, so American support for Israel is actually counter productive.

Israel and America appear to be trying to westernise the ME, and that is not going to work, all its doing is creating jehads and extremist groups within these countries and even within USA and Britain.

At the end of the day thousands of American and British soldiers are going to die to keep the Israeli hopes alive. That what annoys me the most. If Israel wants to stay where it is let them fight for it themselves. Wtf it has to do with my countrymen I don't know.

I'm sick to my stomach watching the bodies coming home.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin

 

Out of interest, what Americans have died for the Israeli cause?

I will give you the opportunity to retract that ridiculous question.

reply to post by bigyin


The region wasn't stable before Israel was "invented". It just wasn't. You're voicing an opinion which is impossible to defend against rational scrutiny or history. The region hasn't been stable since WE (the West, the civilized world, Europe, Russia, America) discovered oil there, fought over extraction rights, destroyed the Ottoman Empire in WWI, and set up, financed and armed unbalanced and unjust regimes and carved up their territory for them. It had nothing to do with Israel. Nothing.

While all this upheaval was going on, Palestinian Jews were trying to keep their heads down and mind their own business. European Jews were fleeing brutal and demeaning persecution in Europe and Russia, at a time of massive social change, fear and loathing. They went to live in their promised land, Israel, with nothing but the clothes on their backs and the willingness to work hard and make a new start. That's all they wanted.

During WWII it was the Nazis that prevented Jewish refugees from reaching Israel. In collusion with the local Arab leaders they turned back thousands, who were marched to death camps. After WWII it was the British that maintained this policy in order to prevent unrest. That is why Israelis felt the need to end the British Mandate and create their own defensible country.

WE armed the Middle East. WE created the conflicts. WE created the dictatorships. WE created the blood feuds.

But what is astounding in all of this is the willingness for people to adopt this myopic view of the world, where EVERYTHING is Israel's fault. Even 9/11 for crying out loud.

And I suppose, judging by what you wrote in your last post, you also think that we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for Israel as well?

Originally posted by bigyin

I will give you the opportunity to retract that ridiculous question.

You'll have to humour me, because I fail to see what I asked that was ridiculous.