Clinton calls Israeli concessions "unprecedented", page 7

reply to post by Lazyninja

---

No religious or political affiliations at all here. I'm just a boring white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I just happen to believe that mainstream Israeli political opinion is right and the rest of the world is wrong, when it comes to Israel. I also think that they probably know the situation better than anyone, and it's not as if they're brain washed and aren't allowed to debate it.

Why do I care about it? Because Israel is a pluralist, democratic country surrounded by about a billion people who hate Israelis - not because of perceived "oppression" of Palestinians, most Arabs don't give a crap about Palestinians unless it's for political reasons - but because they are not Muslims. I can't stand hatred and intolerance, it p*sses me off. And you'll only find that hatred and intolerance, by and large, on one side of the conflict and the surrounding debate, with few exceptions.

Did you not see the anti-Israeli protests on High Street Kensington during Operation Cast Lead? Did you not see the outright hatred, the violence, the attacks against police? Contrast that to a pro-Israeli rally in Trafalgar Square (which I attended) where they were raising money to help orphaned Palestinians. You couldn't have seen a clearer contrast.

Have you not noticed that on these boards, there are people that defend Israel and people that attack Israel? Have you not noticed that people that attack Israel are often filled with irrational hatred towards Israel? I have seen otherwise rational people call for Israel to be nuked - seriously, do you think this is acceptable or reasonable?

I want peace for the region. I'd love to see it in my lifetime. I'm just not on the bandwagon that thinks "peace" should consist of kicking Israelis out of their homes and giving them to Palestinians, I think peace should be something equitable and fair that benefits everyone living in the region not just one group. It seems to me that Israelis, by and large, are keen to work towards that goal, whereas Palestinians (and their supporters around the world, who are many) do not.

reply to post by Lazyninja

---

As for a big conspiracy against Israel, I don't think it exists any more than a pro-Israel conspiracy exists.

I do think there are a lot of (presumably well intentioned) people with a lot of time on their hands who are quite single minded in their wailing indignation about the treatment of Palestinians (and often their hatred for Israel), and who are only too happy to swallow any scrap of news which vilifies Israel and shout it from the rooftops to prove their point about how evil Israel is and how lovely, perfect and oppressed Palestinians are. Doesn't that strike you as a little ghoulish and one sided?

It also strikes me as interesting, and a little puzzling, that those same people are not equally outraged by the far worse oppression and suffering inflicted on minority groups in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Sri Lanka etc. Or how about Romanian Gypsies in the UK, who frequently have their homes burned down by land owners that don't want them there? In Iran the police are going around beating up people on the street at random in order to instil terror on their own population. Not a squeak from the die-hard protectors of the oppressed on these boards.

Combine this with a number of rich and powerful governments (Iran being the number 1) who also have an interest in Israel being painted as an evil oppressor, to divide their enemies (the West) and to sew confusion.

Then combine this with institutional anti-Israel bias in organisations such as the BBC - tell me, how many Palestinian journos does the BBC have in its employment, and how many Israelis?

How many resolutions has the UNHRC proposed attacking Israel since that organisation was created? Verses how many for other countries?

How many Israelis did Amnesty International consult about the water distribution? They didn't even ask the Israeli Water Authority, that provides the water! Not worth asking Israelis, because they lie - right?

There are campaigns to boycott Israeli academics in UK universities. There are campaigns to stop Israelis films from being shown here - Ken Loach headed one of them at Edinburgh earlier this year. There was a campaign to stop the Jerusalem Quartet from performing at the Proms. I find this objectionable and extremely undemocratic. If people want Israelis to change their behaviour then they should be engaging them and debating with them, not shutting them out and demonising them? Surely? Isn't that how democratic countries behave towards each other, cordially and respectfully?

NONE of it stands up to rational scrutiny. Because Israelis aren't evil, and their government isn't evil, and their military isn't evil. They're just people, in circumstances which I can't even begin to imagine let alone judge them for.


[edit on 9-11-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by prof-rabbit

---

Like who?

reply to post by prof-rabbit

---

There are things I'd like to see change in Arab societies, sure. More education, better rights for minorities like the Coptic Christians in Egypt or the Shia Muslims in Saudi. Can't say I lose sleep over it though, more pressing problems closer to home, and I certainly wouldn't advocate boycotts or war to enforce those changes, but gentle persuasion from our leaders to theirs. Such things are generally good for everyone.

Leadership-wise, I think Abdullah is a clever man who has a good grasp of the regional politics. Mubarak is also a good leader for Egypt. The government in Iraq seems to be quite pluralist so no complaints there. Hamas I think act like a bunch of crooks, and I'm not a fan of Maashal, but it seems that given time they can behave like a responsible government and maybe even a partner for peace with Israel, but it will take a lot of mutual trust which I don't see yet. Fatah are a spent force who have managed to p*ss off the hardline Palestinians and the US and the Israelis.

The Iranian theocracy scares me. I see them using terror to control their own population, and the idea of them having nukes does not make me feel very secure. I also wish Ahmadinejad would keep his trap shut and stop making things worse.

Not sure what's happening in Lebanon. Don't think they've formed a government yet, and when they do it will probably include Hezbollah who I worry will dominate politics by shouting loudest.

Syria is run by the Ba'ath Party, which is generally not a group that's big on civil rights and equal opportunities, and I think we have reason to be concerned about what they're up to and their plans for Lebanon. But again, I don't lose sleep over it.

These are my views about Israel's neighbours. See any judgemental hatred in them?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by siahchi

---

DISINFORMATION.

And the IDF has national service. The only people that don't have to spend time in the army are Muslims. Given that fact, please justify your assertion that non-whites are cannon fodder.

reply to post by mattpryor

---

All of the top positions in the idf are held by Jews of American and European descent. The majority of dangerous jobs are held by others. I've seen this with my own eyes. interesting thats the topic you decide to haggle on. what about the rest?

reply to post by mattpryor

---

As for your DISINFORMATION link, them that got the gold make the rules. The goyim are servents, are we not? Fit to be lied to. Apartheid era S. African MEDICAL JOURNALS were full of rascist lies. I'm certain whoever did that genetic testing was of Ashkenaz descent, in fact as soon as I find the names of the doctors I will post them here for all to see. No hiding behind rhetoric when I'm on the scene guy.

reply to post by Lazyninja

---

Firstly, Israel apologist? No, I am not. I do not apologise for anyone's behaviour except my own, when I need to.

The truth is we're probably quite similar. Both of us are annoyed by perceived injustice. The difference is that you see injustice in the way Israel behaves towards Palestinians, and while I can sympathise with that to an extent, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you think it is, and I see a far bigger injustice in the way the media and the UN portrays Israel.

Israel is not responsible for all the trouble and strife in the world, or the rift that is developing between Islam and the West. There are people that would have us believe Israel is responsible for everything from 9/11 to Iraq and Afghanistan, and such people have an agenda.

History has taught us where scape-goating of Jews leads, and I for one don't want that to happen again.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Ridhya

---

Settle down mate!

I certainly did not accuse you of being a Nazi. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that your statement that the Nazis supported Zionism is completely flawed and incorrect, and is "one of those things" that has been circulating on the internet of late to defame Zionism and Israel. If you can find one reputable historian who will support your view then I'm all ears.

Nazism was good for Zionism? I'm sure the millions of Jews who were murdered in gas chambers are delighted about it. And the hundreds of thousands of survivors, who went to Israel because they had NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, having lost the family, friends, belongings, home, everything. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits about good old Adolf.

As for Zionism equating to Nazism, how on Earth do you reach this conclusion? Israel is a country of refugees. Those refugees have worked and fought and died to make something good in the world, in spite of every obstacle thrown up at them, and now they just want to be left the hell alone to live in peace without worrying about suicide bombings or rockets landing on their heads.

I get the fact that you don't like Israel, and you don't like Zionism. It's okay to dislike a country, it's okay to have prejudices. It's human nature. However, comparing Zionism to Nazism is just plain offensive. You don't like that I'm offended and call you up on it? Tough.

Humm, Why couldn't the Zionists retrace their steps from Poland back through Spain? What did they accomplish with their push into Russia?
Do you know why Zionists left the ME in the first place?
Are the Nazi's as offended as the Zionists about being cast in the same light?

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Donny 4 million

---

Israel as a legal and sovereign nation was founded in 1948. America did not support Israel in any way until quite recently.


Between 1948 and 1967, Israel really could have done with outside help -

America is a very fair weather friend to Israel - and quite a recent one, and even now only because Israel and its military is a strategic asset to bolster American influence in the region.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by mattpryor]

This is for you matt incase the mods do there usual.

Here are a few snippets that show you to be un questionablely untruthful.
The bigger question now, is why?
Israel is a UN renagade with sanctions especially directed at human rights and nuclear proliferation.
These are matters that the American tax payer has spent zillions trying to better not finance.
All this when Sharon utters "We own America."
Only a communist or Bolshevek would be so arrogant.



Congress to vote on budget Photo: AFP
Israel still top recipient of US foreign aid

President Bush's administration to submit proposed budget for US foreign aid in 2008 to Congress; requests over 12 percent increase in foreign aid from 2007; Lebanon to receive some USD 52 million, Israel to get USD 2.4 billion

Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 02.08.07, 07:24 / Israel Business

WASHINGTON – President George W. Bush's administration will submit its proposed budget for US foreign aid in 2008 to Congress on Wednesday, requesting USD 20.27 billion - a more than 12 percent increase in foreign aid from 2007.

However America's foreign aid budget composes only a small portion of its overall budget of USD 2.9 trillion.

Israel, long since the US' top recipient of foreign aid, will receive USD 2.4 billion. Since 1979 and the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, Israel has annually received up to USD 3 billion in aid.
End

Published on Sunday, January 8, 2006 by the Topeka Capital-Journal (Kansas)
Aid to Israel is Out of Hand
by George Bisharat

American and Israeli diplomats have recently revived discussions over our potential financial support of Israel's August withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. Last summer, Israel sought $2 billion, but suspended its request following the Katrina disaster. With popular and congressional attention to New Orleans now dissipating, Israel is again asking American taxpayers for help, although it has scaled back to $1.2 billion in light of popular sentiment and signals from Congress. This amount is supplemental to Israel's share of our regular foreign aid that has run $3 billion to $4 billion annually for decades.



EndHistorically, politicians of both major American parties have been extremely generous to Israel, a country with a per capita income equal to some in Europe. Its annual $3 billion to 4 billion often exceeds a third of our total foreign aid -- more than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Will our leaders, this time, honor the apparent sentiments of the majority of Americans, or pursue the electoral benefits that seemingly generate their knee-jerk support of Israel?
End

EndIsrael: U.S. Foreign Assistance
Updated April 26, 2005
Clyde R. Mark
Foreign Assistance SUMMARY
Israel is not economically self-sufficient,
and relies on foreign assistance and borrowing
to maintain its economy. Since 1985, the
United States has provided $3 billion in grants
annually to Israel. Since 1976, Israel has been
the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign
assistance, and is the largest cumulative recipient
since World War II. In addition to U.S.
assistance, it is estimated that Israel receives
about $1 billion annually through philanthropy,
an equal amount through short- and
long- term commercial loans, and around $1
billion in Israel Bonds proceeds.
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu told a
joint session of Congress on July 10, 1996,
that Israel would reduce its need for U.S. aid
over the next four years. In January 1998,
Finance Minister Neeman proposed
eliminating the $1.2 billion economic aid and
increasing the $1.8 billion in military aid by
$60 million per year during a 10-year period
beginning in the year 2000. The FY1999
through 2005 appropriations bills included
cuts of $120 million in economic aid and an
increase of $60 million in military aid for each
year.
U.S. aid to Israel has some unique
aspects, such as loans with repayment waived,
or a pledge to provide Israel with economic
assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the
United States for previous loans. Israel also
receives special benefits that may not be
available to other countries, such as the use of
U.S. military assistance for research and
development in the United States, the use of
U.S. military assistance for military purchases
in Israel, or receiving all its assistance in the
first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in 3
or 4 installments as other countries do.
In addition to the foreign assistance, the
United States has provided Israel with $625
million to develop and deploy the Arrow antimissile
missile (an ongoing project), $1.3
billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled),
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank
(operative), $130 million to develop the high
energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing),
and other military projects. In FY2000 the
United States provided Israel an additional
$1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in
FY2002 the United States provided an
additional $200 million in anti-terror
assistance.
For FY2005, the United States provided
$360 million in economic, $2.22 billion in
military, and $50 million in migration
resettlement assistance.
[For more information, see CRS Issue
Brief IB82008, Israel-United States Relationsminffairs, Defense, and Trade Divisionmage End

So do you equate the destruction of the USS Liberty in 1967 a turning point
for US aid to Israel? Ya know, blow the crap out of one of our ships and we'll send you BILLIONS. BA

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Donny 4 million]

donny 4 million

And there are the numbers folks.

wanna get into AIPAC? PAC's in general are destroying this country from the inside out. I refer you all to:

Damn the country, Obama must fail...

By our very own skepticoverlord. One of the best articles ever published on this site. Follow the money to find the truth.

reply to post by Donny 4 million

---

All this when Sharon utters "We own America."

Only problem with that quote is, he never said it. Someone made it up. In fact if you bother to research it you'll see that it originated from a press release by the Islamic Association for Palestine in 2001.

America gives military aid to Israel - congratulations Sherlock, what a spectacular revelation. You must be proud of all the time you spent finding that out. It all gets spent on US tech and jobs anyway. Don't like it? Write to your congressman, not me.

Now show me what aid the US gave to Israel between 48 and 67, when Israel was at its weakest. Or argue the fact that the US operated an arms embargo on Israel in 1947 when Israel was under attack from neighbouring countries. Or that the US forced Britain and France to abandon Israel during the Suez conflict.

Fair weather friends eh... who needs 'em?

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Ridhya

---

Settle down mate!

I certainly did not accuse you of being a Nazi. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that your statement that the Nazis supported Zionism is completely flawed and incorrect, and is "one of those things" that has been circulating on the internet of late to defame Zionism and Israel. If you can find one reputable historian who will support your view then I'm all ears.

Nazism was good for Zionism? I'm sure the millions of Jews who were murdered in gas chambers are delighted about it. And the hundreds of thousands of survivors, who went to Israel because they had NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, having lost the family, friends, belongings, home, everything. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits about good old Adolf.

As for Zionism equating to Nazism, how on Earth do you reach this conclusion? Israel is a country of refugees. Those refugees have worked and fought and died to make something good in the world, in spite of every obstacle thrown up at them, and now they just want to be left the hell alone to live in peace without worrying about suicide bombings or rockets landing on their heads.

I get the fact that you don't like Israel, and you don't like Zionism. It's okay to dislike a country, it's okay to have prejudices. It's human nature. However, comparing Zionism to Nazism is just plain offensive. You don't like that I'm offended and call you up on it? Tough.

Humm, Why couldn't the Zionists retrace their steps from Poland back through Spain? What did they accomplish with their push into Russia?
Do you know why Zionists left the ME in the first place?
Are the Nazi's as offended as the Zionists about being cast in the same light?
I think you missed this one.

Russian scientists reach buried Antarctic Lake Vostok
  Posted 7 days ago with 83 member flags

BREAKING: Israel teams with terror group to kill Iran\'s nuclear scientists, U.S. officials tell NBC
  Posted 4 days ago with 74 member flags

Monsanto quits as GM results announced (EUROPE)
  Posted 8 days ago with 72 member flags

Renowned Geophysicist Says Strange Sky Sounds Are Real
  Posted 1 days ago with 72 member flags

Strange noises reported around North Battleford
  Posted 19 days ago with 67 member flags

FDA\'s New Claim: "Your Body Is a Drug—and We Have the Authority to Regulate It"
  Posted 11 days ago with 53 member flags

Ayatollah: Kill all Jews, annihilate Israel
  Posted 7 days ago with 49 member flags

Bill Gates Backs Climate Scientists Lobbying For Large-Scale Geoengineering
  Posted 6 days ago with 41 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: