Clinton calls Israeli concessions "unprecedented"

reply to post by Lazyninja


No religious or political affiliations at all here. I'm just a boring white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I just happen to believe that mainstream Israeli political opinion is right and the rest of the world is wrong, when it comes to Israel. I also think that they probably know the situation better than anyone, and it's not as if they're brain washed and aren't allowed to debate it.

Why do I care about it? Because Israel is a pluralist, democratic country surrounded by about a billion people who hate Israelis - not because of perceived "oppression" of Palestinians, most Arabs don't give a crap about Palestinians unless it's for political reasons - but because they are not Muslims. I can't stand hatred and intolerance, it p*sses me off. And you'll only find that hatred and intolerance, by and large, on one side of the conflict and the surrounding debate, with few exceptions.

Did you not see the anti-Israeli protests on High Street Kensington during Operation Cast Lead? Did you not see the outright hatred, the violence, the attacks against police? Contrast that to a pro-Israeli rally in Trafalgar Square (which I attended) where they were raising money to help orphaned Palestinians. You couldn't have seen a clearer contrast.

Have you not noticed that on these boards, there are people that defend Israel and people that attack Israel? Have you not noticed that people that attack Israel are often filled with irrational hatred towards Israel? I have seen otherwise rational people call for Israel to be nuked - seriously, do you think this is acceptable or reasonable?

I want peace for the region. I'd love to see it in my lifetime. I'm just not on the bandwagon that thinks "peace" should consist of kicking Israelis out of their homes and giving them to Palestinians, I think peace should be something equitable and fair that benefits everyone living in the region not just one group. It seems to me that Israelis, by and large, are keen to work towards that goal, whereas Palestinians (and their supporters around the world, who are many) do not.

reply to post by Lazyninja


As for a big conspiracy against Israel, I don't think it exists any more than a pro-Israel conspiracy exists.

I do think there are a lot of (presumably well intentioned) people with a lot of time on their hands who are quite single minded in their wailing indignation about the treatment of Palestinians (and often their hatred for Israel), and who are only too happy to swallow any scrap of news which vilifies Israel and shout it from the rooftops to prove their point about how evil Israel is and how lovely, perfect and oppressed Palestinians are. Doesn't that strike you as a little ghoulish and one sided?

It also strikes me as interesting, and a little puzzling, that those same people are not equally outraged by the far worse oppression and suffering inflicted on minority groups in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Yemen, Sri Lanka etc. Or how about Romanian Gypsies in the UK, who frequently have their homes burned down by land owners that don't want them there? In Iran the police are going around beating up people on the street at random in order to instil terror on their own population. Not a squeak from the die-hard protectors of the oppressed on these boards.

Combine this with a number of rich and powerful governments (Iran being the number 1) who also have an interest in Israel being painted as an evil oppressor, to divide their enemies (the West) and to sew confusion.

Then combine this with institutional anti-Israel bias in organisations such as the BBC - tell me, how many Palestinian journos does the BBC have in its employment, and how many Israelis?

How many resolutions has the UNHRC proposed attacking Israel since that organisation was created? Verses how many for other countries?

How many Israelis did Amnesty International consult about the water distribution? They didn't even ask the Israeli Water Authority, that provides the water! Not worth asking Israelis, because they lie - right?

There are campaigns to boycott Israeli academics in UK universities. There are campaigns to stop Israelis films from being shown here - Ken Loach headed one of them at Edinburgh earlier this year. There was a campaign to stop the Jerusalem Quartet from performing at the Proms. I find this objectionable and extremely undemocratic. If people want Israelis to change their behaviour then they should be engaging them and debating with them, not shutting them out and demonising them? Surely? Isn't that how democratic countries behave towards each other, cordially and respectfully?

NONE of it stands up to rational scrutiny. Because Israelis aren't evil, and their government isn't evil, and their military isn't evil. They're just people, in circumstances which I can't even begin to imagine let alone judge them for.


[edit on 9-11-2009 by mattpryor]

Originally posted by mattpryor

NONE of it stands up to rational scrutiny. Because Israelis aren't evil, and their government isn't evil, and their military isn't evil. They're just people, in circumstances which I can't even begin to imagine let alone judge them for.

And yet you can judge all of the countries around them? on what facts do you judge their neighbours?

reply to post by prof-rabbit


Like who?

Originally posted by prof-rabbit

Originally posted by mattpryor

NONE of it stands up to rational scrutiny. Because Israelis aren't evil, and their government isn't evil, and their military isn't evil. They're just people, in circumstances which I can't even begin to imagine let alone judge them for.

And yet you can judge all of the countries around them? on what facts do you judge their neighbours?

By their actions,deeds and hatefilled speach!

reply to post by prof-rabbit


There are things I'd like to see change in Arab societies, sure. More education, better rights for minorities like the Coptic Christians in Egypt or the Shia Muslims in Saudi. Can't say I lose sleep over it though, more pressing problems closer to home, and I certainly wouldn't advocate boycotts or war to enforce those changes, but gentle persuasion from our leaders to theirs. Such things are generally good for everyone.

Leadership-wise, I think Abdullah is a clever man who has a good grasp of the regional politics. Mubarak is also a good leader for Egypt. The government in Iraq seems to be quite pluralist so no complaints there. Hamas I think act like a bunch of crooks, and I'm not a fan of Maashal, but it seems that given time they can behave like a responsible government and maybe even a partner for peace with Israel, but it will take a lot of mutual trust which I don't see yet. Fatah are a spent force who have managed to p*ss off the hardline Palestinians and the US and the Israelis.

The Iranian theocracy scares me. I see them using terror to control their own population, and the idea of them having nukes does not make me feel very secure. I also wish Ahmadinejad would keep his trap shut and stop making things worse.

Not sure what's happening in Lebanon. Don't think they've formed a government yet, and when they do it will probably include Hezbollah who I worry will dominate politics by shouting loudest.

Syria is run by the Ba'ath Party, which is generally not a group that's big on civil rights and equal opportunities, and I think we have reason to be concerned about what they're up to and their plans for Lebanon. But again, I don't lose sleep over it.

These are my views about Israel's neighbours. See any judgemental hatred in them?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by mattpryor]

Apparently, this thread calls for a (short) history lesson.

The British armed the Palestinians to chase out the Turks who were ruling at the time, in the last days of the Turkish Empire.

Palestine became a British protectorate akin to the relationship of the U.S. to Puerto Rico.

After Hitler and the Pogroms, the Europeans felt bad for the Jews, and suggested several "homelands" for them including Argentina and Namibia.

The Jews picked Palestine as it had historical connection to their religion"

"Lord" Balfour of England signs a piece of paper establishing two states in Palestine- one for Jews and one for Palestinians.

British banks seize land of indebted Palestinians and cede them to the Jews.

And here we are today.
No input from the Palestinians in the process.

It is important to point out, the Jews from Europe are not the same as Semetic Jews. Jews, Muslims, Christian and Druze were all NATIVE PALESTINIANS, living side by side with no problem, with roughly half Semetic and half Hamitic ancestries (Canaanites are Hamitic)

Heres the big secret Isfake (isreal) doesn't want you to know:

The Ashekenaz Jews of Europe are descended from the Khazarian people, from the medievel state of Abkhazia, today in the general region of south Ossetia where there was recently a mini war with Russia. The state of Abkhazia accepted Judaism as the state religion in the tenth century to act as a "buffer" state between the Christian west and Muslim east, and Muslims and Christians came to this buffer zone to do trade. This resulted in the Khazarians becoming bankers for both sides. The Jews of Europe are no "lost tribe" or diaspora from the middle east at all. They are Ethnically Caucasian, and many did not in fact speak Hebrew (a semetic language) at all but Yiddish (an eastern European Languge). Dark hair and eyes of European Jews are because of Slavic and Hungarian influences in the blood. Many Hungarians are darker because of admixture with the Romany of northern India (Gypsy).

The truth is Weinstein and Rothberg are no where near Hebrew or any other Semetic names. Talk all the *expletive* you want, and I know you will, anyone not believing me can do the research for themselves.

The Palestinians are the natives, regardless of religion. In fact actual Semetic Jews are treated little better than Palestinians, American and European Jews command all the power in Isfake. Same goes for the Ethiopian, Iraqi, Yemeni, and Morrocan Jews. They live in bad conditions and make up the bulk of the idf's cannon fodder. Even there "if ya ain't white ya ain't right" applies, even to Jews. It is apartheid and colonialism in it's most monstrous evolution yet.

This is why they fight. It is not a religious war but a war of natives and colonists.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by siahchi]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by siahchi]

reply to post by siahchi


DISINFORMATION.

And the IDF has national service. The only people that don't have to spend time in the army are Muslims. Given that fact, please justify your assertion that non-whites are cannon fodder.

Originally posted by mattpryor

As for a big conspiracy against Israel, I don't think it exists any more than a pro-Israel conspiracy exists.

Conspiracy is a dirty word. I'm not talking about conspiracy. I'm talking about mass opinion and why it is against Israel. I still don't have a satisfactory answer. I really wish there was one, because when I talk to Israeli apologists I see that they can see something which I can't, and it confounds me.

and who are only too happy to swallow any scrap of news which vilifies Israel and shout it from the rooftops to prove their point about how evil Israel is and how lovely, perfect and oppressed Palestinians are. Doesn't that strike you as a little ghoulish and one sided?

In Iran the police are going around beating up people on the street at random in order to instil terror on their own population. Not a squeak from the die-hard protectors of the oppressed on these boards.

Evil regime is evil. Working as intended? Not newsworthy.

I'm not sure what you would expect us to say about Iran. Be shocked and appalled perhaps? We're already aware of the fact that that evil people do evil. People don't talk about it on here because there is nothing really to debate about the issue. A topic or conversation which can only ever result in consensus will die on the first page. But it's when people like us, Israel, does evil that we get appalled and make a fuss.

As for Hamas. Arabs can be terrorists. We get it already. It's not news, or anything to talk about. It's not even a relevant counterpoint.

When some idiot fires a rocket at Israel trying to kill someone, is he representing the will of the Palestinian people? No, he's just another radical terrorist idiot. The fact that these people exist, does not justify the actions of the Israeli state. The Israeli state, that is the media army and government, does not represent it's people any more than Hamas represents the Palestinians.

Because Israelis aren't evil, and their government isn't evil, and their military isn't evil. They're just people, in circumstances which I can't even begin to imagine let alone judge them for.

My family wisely made the choice to stay in Europe. Being surrounded by Arab states while you're stealing an entire country from them is a quite dangerous thing to do. But the bible said they can take that land? Really what? That makes no sense to me, but then I'm not religious in the traditional sense.

reply to post by mattpryor


All of the top positions in the idf are held by Jews of American and European descent. The majority of dangerous jobs are held by others. I've seen this with my own eyes. interesting thats the topic you decide to haggle on. what about the rest?

reply to post by mattpryor


As for your DISINFORMATION link, them that got the gold make the rules. The goyim are servents, are we not? Fit to be lied to. Apartheid era S. African MEDICAL JOURNALS were full of rascist lies. I'm certain whoever did that genetic testing was of Ashkenaz descent, in fact as soon as I find the names of the doctors I will post them here for all to see. No hiding behind rhetoric when I'm on the scene guy.

reply to post by Lazyninja


Firstly, Israel apologist? No, I am not. I do not apologise for anyone's behaviour except my own, when I need to.

The truth is we're probably quite similar. Both of us are annoyed by perceived injustice. The difference is that you see injustice in the way Israel behaves towards Palestinians, and while I can sympathise with that to an extent, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you think it is, and I see a far bigger injustice in the way the media and the UN portrays Israel.

Israel is not responsible for all the trouble and strife in the world, or the rift that is developing between Islam and the West. There are people that would have us believe Israel is responsible for everything from 9/11 to Iraq and Afghanistan, and such people have an agenda.

History has taught us where scape-goating of Jews leads, and I for one don't want that to happen again.

Is Zionism racism? I would say yes. It's a policy that to me looks like it has many parallels with racism. The effect is the same. Whether you call it that or not is in a sense irrelevant."
Desmund Tutu,
South African Archbishop, Nobel prize winner, and activist against apartheid


Rabbi Calls for Annihilation of Arabs, BBC, April 10, 2001
"The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, has provoked outrage with a sermon calling for the annihilation of Arabs. 'It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable,' he was quoted as saying in a sermon delivered on Monday to mark the Jewish festival of Passover. Rabbi Yosef is one of the most powerful religious figures in Israel, He is known for his outspoken comments and has in the past referred to the Arabs as 'vipers.' Through his influence over Shas, Israel's third largest political party, he is also a significant political figure." - and they call muslims extremist!




still looking for backround on the doctors...... I will post asap.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by siahchi]

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Ridhya

 

Settle down mate!

I certainly did not accuse you of being a Nazi. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that your statement that the Nazis supported Zionism is completely flawed and incorrect, and is "one of those things" that has been circulating on the internet of late to defame Zionism and Israel. If you can find one reputable historian who will support your view then I'm all ears.

Nazism was good for Zionism? I'm sure the millions of Jews who were murdered in gas chambers are delighted about it. And the hundreds of thousands of survivors, who went to Israel because they had NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, having lost the family, friends, belongings, home, everything. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits about good old Adolf.

As for Zionism equating to Nazism, how on Earth do you reach this conclusion? Israel is a country of refugees. Those refugees have worked and fought and died to make something good in the world, in spite of every obstacle thrown up at them, and now they just want to be left the hell alone to live in peace without worrying about suicide bombings or rockets landing on their heads.

I get the fact that you don't like Israel, and you don't like Zionism. It's okay to dislike a country, it's okay to have prejudices. It's human nature. However, comparing Zionism to Nazism is just plain offensive. You don't like that I'm offended and call you up on it? Tough.

Humm, Why couldn't the Zionists retrace their steps from Poland back through Spain? What did they accomplish with their push into Russia?
Do you know why Zionists left the ME in the first place?
Are the Nazi's as offended as the Zionists about being cast in the same light?

DR. A. Oppenheim contributed to the work you cite
"Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"

Dr. Hammer is a member of Temple Emanu-El

And I see you have completly avoided this dialogue with me mattpryor.

Going to call in backup to shout me down? No research of your own to contribute? Or is it too much to argue against the truth?

Gershon Explains His Racist Remarks to Knesset Panel.
Haaretz [Israeli newspaper], July 4, 2001
"Maccabi Tel Aviv's outgoing [professional] basketball coach, Pini Gershon, yesterday offered a full explanation to the Knesset committee for prevention of violence in sport, following the publication this week of racist remarks that he had made several months ago ... . Yedioth Ahronoth's Web site, Y-Net, published a report on Sunday in which Gershon is quoted as telling a closed forum of senior IDF [Israeli military] officers that 'even among blacks there are different colors. There is dark black, and there is mocha. The mocha type are more clever, and the darker color usually come from the street.' The report said that the often overly-vivacious Gershon drew laughter from his listeners. He then continued unfazed: 'I am not joking. You can see the standing of those with a bit more mixture in their color, such as Andrew Kennedy. You can see his personality. He will check you out, he is clever. The other (darker) blacks are stupid. They will do whatever you tell them, like slaves.' Gershon told the Knesset committee that the words were uttered last September and that none of the officers present made any comment to him about his remarks. 'They were happy, we spoke jovially. I spoke about all the players and none of them criticized me,' he said yesterday."

Some IDF Officers Asked for Copies of Gershon's Speech.
Haaretz [Israeli newspaper], July 8, 2001
"Basketball coach Pini Gershon's speech in which he referred to black basketball players as having a slave mentality and the color of their skin as an indicator of their intelligence, so impressed some of the officers who heard it last November that they asked for copies of the videotape of the lecture. Even after the scandal broke out, many of the reserve officers, who were in the course for brigade commanders, don't understand why Gershon's racist remarks caused a scandal. One said 'Gershon's comments were taken as a colorful expression, as humor. We didn't think of it as racist. After all, he didn't incite us against blacks, but just gave an extreme example to make his speech tangible.' The officer called Gershon's speech 'brilliant. He gave a professional talk about leadership and the difficulty of turning a group of very different people, with huge egos, into a winning team. That's part of what we face.' 'I consider myself an enlightened person,' said another of the officers. 'But I have to admit that I didn't fall off my chair when he said what he did. We all hear things like that here.' According to the officers, a divisional commander, Brig. Gen. Yoav Gallant, recently lectured in the U.S. on the relationship between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, and used the analogy of a dog and its master. Arabs in the lecture complained. 'It all depends on what is said and the context,' said one of the officers."


this is what isfake is all about.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Donny 4 million

 

Israel as a legal and sovereign nation was founded in 1948. America did not support Israel in any way until quite recently.


Between 1948 and 1967, Israel really could have done with outside help -

America is a very fair weather friend to Israel - and quite a recent one, and even now only because Israel and its military is a strategic asset to bolster American influence in the region.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by mattpryor]

This is for you matt incase the mods do there usual.

Here are a few snippets that show you to be un questionablely untruthful.
The bigger question now, is why?
Israel is a UN renagade with sanctions especially directed at human rights and nuclear proliferation.
These are matters that the American tax payer has spent zillions trying to better not finance.
All this when Sharon utters "We own America."
Only a communist or Bolshevek would be so arrogant.



Congress to vote on budget Photo: AFP
Israel still top recipient of US foreign aid

President Bush's administration to submit proposed budget for US foreign aid in 2008 to Congress; requests over 12 percent increase in foreign aid from 2007; Lebanon to receive some USD 52 million, Israel to get USD 2.4 billion

Yitzhak Benhorin Published: 02.08.07, 07:24 / Israel Business

WASHINGTON – President George W. Bush's administration will submit its proposed budget for US foreign aid in 2008 to Congress on Wednesday, requesting USD 20.27 billion - a more than 12 percent increase in foreign aid from 2007.

However America's foreign aid budget composes only a small portion of its overall budget of USD 2.9 trillion.

Israel, long since the US' top recipient of foreign aid, will receive USD 2.4 billion. Since 1979 and the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, Israel has annually received up to USD 3 billion in aid.
End

Published on Sunday, January 8, 2006 by the Topeka Capital-Journal (Kansas)
Aid to Israel is Out of Hand
by George Bisharat

American and Israeli diplomats have recently revived discussions over our potential financial support of Israel's August withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. Last summer, Israel sought $2 billion, but suspended its request following the Katrina disaster. With popular and congressional attention to New Orleans now dissipating, Israel is again asking American taxpayers for help, although it has scaled back to $1.2 billion in light of popular sentiment and signals from Congress. This amount is supplemental to Israel's share of our regular foreign aid that has run $3 billion to $4 billion annually for decades.



EndHistorically, politicians of both major American parties have been extremely generous to Israel, a country with a per capita income equal to some in Europe. Its annual $3 billion to 4 billion often exceeds a third of our total foreign aid -- more than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Will our leaders, this time, honor the apparent sentiments of the majority of Americans, or pursue the electoral benefits that seemingly generate their knee-jerk support of Israel?
End

EndIsrael: U.S. Foreign Assistance
Updated April 26, 2005
Clyde R. Mark
Foreign Assistance SUMMARY
Israel is not economically self-sufficient,
and relies on foreign assistance and borrowing
to maintain its economy. Since 1985, the
United States has provided $3 billion in grants
annually to Israel. Since 1976, Israel has been
the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign
assistance, and is the largest cumulative recipient
since World War II. In addition to U.S.
assistance, it is estimated that Israel receives
about $1 billion annually through philanthropy,
an equal amount through short- and
long- term commercial loans, and around $1
billion in Israel Bonds proceeds.
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu told a
joint session of Congress on July 10, 1996,
that Israel would reduce its need for U.S. aid
over the next four years. In January 1998,
Finance Minister Neeman proposed
eliminating the $1.2 billion economic aid and
increasing the $1.8 billion in military aid by
$60 million per year during a 10-year period
beginning in the year 2000. The FY1999
through 2005 appropriations bills included
cuts of $120 million in economic aid and an
increase of $60 million in military aid for each
year.
U.S. aid to Israel has some unique
aspects, such as loans with repayment waived,
or a pledge to provide Israel with economic
assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the
United States for previous loans. Israel also
receives special benefits that may not be
available to other countries, such as the use of
U.S. military assistance for research and
development in the United States, the use of
U.S. military assistance for military purchases
in Israel, or receiving all its assistance in the
first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in 3
or 4 installments as other countries do.
In addition to the foreign assistance, the
United States has provided Israel with $625
million to develop and deploy the Arrow antimissile
missile (an ongoing project), $1.3
billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled),
$200 million to develop the Merkava tank
(operative), $130 million to develop the high
energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing),
and other military projects. In FY2000 the
United States provided Israel an additional
$1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in
FY2002 the United States provided an
additional $200 million in anti-terror
assistance.
For FY2005, the United States provided
$360 million in economic, $2.22 billion in
military, and $50 million in migration
resettlement assistance.
[For more information, see CRS Issue
Brief IB82008, Israel-United States Relationsminffairs, Defense, and Trade Divisionmage End

So do you equate the destruction of the USS Liberty in 1967 a turning point
for US aid to Israel? Ya know, blow the crap out of one of our ships and we'll send you BILLIONS. BA

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Donny 4 million]

donny 4 million

And there are the numbers folks.

wanna get into AIPAC? PAC's in general are destroying this country from the inside out. I refer you all to:

Damn the country, Obama must fail...

By our very own skepticoverlord. One of the best articles ever published on this site. Follow the money to find the truth.

reply to post by Donny 4 million

All this when Sharon utters "We own America."

Only problem with that quote is, he never said it. Someone made it up. In fact if you bother to research it you'll see that it originated from a press release by the Islamic Association for Palestine in 2001.

America gives military aid to Israel - congratulations Sherlock, what a spectacular revelation. You must be proud of all the time you spent finding that out. It all gets spent on US tech and jobs anyway. Don't like it? Write to your congressman, not me.

Now show me what aid the US gave to Israel between 48 and 67, when Israel was at its weakest. Or argue the fact that the US operated an arms embargo on Israel in 1947 when Israel was under attack from neighbouring countries. Or that the US forced Britain and France to abandon Israel during the Suez conflict.

Fair weather friends eh... who needs 'em?

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Ridhya

 

Settle down mate!

I certainly did not accuse you of being a Nazi. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that your statement that the Nazis supported Zionism is completely flawed and incorrect, and is "one of those things" that has been circulating on the internet of late to defame Zionism and Israel. If you can find one reputable historian who will support your view then I'm all ears.

Nazism was good for Zionism? I'm sure the millions of Jews who were murdered in gas chambers are delighted about it. And the hundreds of thousands of survivors, who went to Israel because they had NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, having lost the family, friends, belongings, home, everything. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits about good old Adolf.

As for Zionism equating to Nazism, how on Earth do you reach this conclusion? Israel is a country of refugees. Those refugees have worked and fought and died to make something good in the world, in spite of every obstacle thrown up at them, and now they just want to be left the hell alone to live in peace without worrying about suicide bombings or rockets landing on their heads.

I get the fact that you don't like Israel, and you don't like Zionism. It's okay to dislike a country, it's okay to have prejudices. It's human nature. However, comparing Zionism to Nazism is just plain offensive. You don't like that I'm offended and call you up on it? Tough.

Humm, Why couldn't the Zionists retrace their steps from Poland back through Spain? What did they accomplish with their push into Russia?
Do you know why Zionists left the ME in the first place?
Are the Nazi's as offended as the Zionists about being cast in the same light?
I think you missed this one.