Clinton calls Israeli concessions "unprecedented", page 6
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reply posted on 6-11-2009 @ 10:10 AM by Ridhya
reply to post by mattpryor

You are absolutely right about instability due to western occupation there (and even worse when they began to nationalise their resources!) but he (she?) was referring to religious instability, not instability in general, as there was peace and cooperation between the sides (like in B'tselem of today). If anything they were together because both Jews and Muslims saw that western influence on their resources was a bad thing.

Also not to nitpick but the Nazis did not prevent Jews from reaching Israel, they HELPED. Zionists were allies of them because they wanted Jews in Israel, and Nazis wanted Jews out! Not so much a 'friendly' thing but rather same desire, so why not work together?


reply posted on 6-11-2009 @ 10:38 AM by justinsweatt
While I do not support Israel in their current configuration, I will respectfully disagree that this country is nothing more than a "secular" country. I hate to break it to you but the Founding Fathers were quite religious. The issue is to uphold civil liberties though and I don't want to seriously get into a debate about religion here because ultimately it's such a personal thing. I think that we can have agnostics and atheists contribute greatly to our Republic because this is for the people, of the people and by the people. I just don't agree that we are nothing more than a "secular" country though. It was stated many times in the process of our Constitution that these were rights given to us by God and I firmly believe that. Thank goodness we were able to pass the 13th Amendment so that we could dispense with the hypocrisy and give those same freedoms to our African brothers and sisters. Having said that though, I think we should learn from the example of the Crusades that we should not promote violence and war under the rhetoric of biblical "revelation". To me, that was what the founding fathers meant by religious freedom. To give all the freedom to worship so that we don't wind up like England in a protestant vs. catholic 500 year war, which means we shouldn't be involved in another nation's affairs of jewish vs. muslim. England had used religion effectively to promote war for the needs of the corporations and the crown and we should never be privy to those kinds of actions.

Anyway, it does raise a lot of serious questions: if so many people feel so strongly about Israel to promote their war and give a sizable chunk of our tax money away, why not annex them as one of the states into this country like we've done with Hawaii or Alaska? Or maybe make them an official US Territory like Guam or Puerto Rico? Put our money where our mouth is?

I think the Israelis have been involved in some really gnarly, bad stuff that we should not promote, personally. I'd like to see us start moving away from those kinds of relationships.


reply posted on 6-11-2009 @ 11:30 AM by mattpryor
Originally posted by Ridhya
Also not to nitpick but the Nazis did not prevent Jews from reaching Israel, they HELPED. Zionists were allies of them because they wanted Jews in Israel, and Nazis wanted Jews out! Not so much a 'friendly' thing but rather same desire, so why not work together?


Are you basing this conclusion on Adolf Eichmann's meeting with Feivel Polkes in 1937 when Polkes begged Eichmann to allow limited emigration from Eastern Europe to Israel, in exchange for a bribe, and was refused? The meeting which is held up by revisionist anti-Semites as "proof" of collusion between the Nazis and Zionists, in spite of the fact that it ended disastrously for the Jews?

Zionism was unacceptable to Nazism and Hitler's ideology. Hitler was horrified by the idea of a Jewish State, as he was obsessed with the idea that Jewish power represented a threat to civilization. He was an idiot. But his lunatic ideas still hold some sway, it seems...

The Nazis conspired with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to lean on the British, through violence and threats of violence, to prevent Jewish emigration to Israel. That is where the ideological similarities can be found. Pan-Arabists admired Nazism as a new kind of social order. We (the British) dutifully obliged, turning back about 50% of the boats that tried to transport Jewish refugees from Europe to Israel during and after the war (look up Aliyah Bet), directly leading to thousands of deaths.

This kind of distortion of history is quite typical of anti-Israel propaganda, as it reinforces the view that Nazism and Zionism can be compared to each other, and that the modern state of Israel was "conceived in sin". Frankly, it scares me.


reply posted on 6-11-2009 @ 04:45 PM by bigyin
Originally posted by mattpryor
Originally posted by Ridhya
Also not to nitpick but the Nazis did not prevent Jews from reaching Israel, they HELPED. Zionists were allies of them because they wanted Jews in Israel, and Nazis wanted Jews out! Not so much a 'friendly' thing but rather same desire, so why not work together?


Are you basing this conclusion on Adolf Eichmann's meeting with Feivel Polkes in 1937 when Polkes begged Eichmann to allow limited emigration from Eastern Europe to Israel, in exchange for a bribe, and was refused? The meeting which is held up by revisionist anti-Semites as "proof" of collusion between the Nazis and Zionists, in spite of the fact that it ended disastrously for the Jews?

Zionism was unacceptable to Nazism and Hitler's ideology. Hitler was horrified by the idea of a Jewish State, as he was obsessed with the idea that Jewish power represented a threat to civilization. He was an idiot. But his lunatic ideas still hold some sway, it seems...

The Nazis conspired with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to lean on the British, through violence and threats of violence, to prevent Jewish emigration to Israel. That is where the ideological similarities can be found. Pan-Arabists admired Nazism as a new kind of social order. We (the British) dutifully obliged, turning back about 50% of the boats that tried to transport Jewish refugees from Europe to Israel during and after the war (look up Aliyah Bet), directly leading to thousands of deaths.

This kind of distortion of history is quite typical of anti-Israel propaganda, as it reinforces the view that Nazism and Zionism can be compared to each other, and that the modern state of Israel was "conceived in sin". Frankly, it scares me.


What a distorted view you have.... thats pretty scary.

Yes look up Aliyah Bet and find out that Britain had set a limit on the number of Jews that were allowed to migrate to Israel so that the indiginous Palestinian population would not feel threatened or over whelmed by the influx.

But true to form the jews decided to ignore the rules and far too many piled into the region. With nowhere to go the local people were pushed aside. The same has been going on to this day.

From day 1 the jews have paid no regard for the Palestinians and stolen their land for themselves. And also from day 1 Israel has paid no attention to any rules or orders applied to it. It is a law breaking criminal state. With nukes.

Really scary


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 04:52 AM by Ridhya
reply to post by mattpryor

You're hilarious. You can imply I am a nazi all you want to get people against me but it will never work. I am a proud Norseman and obviously you do not know history, because Norwegians kicked the Nazis ass and never surrender even with our inferior and outnumbered forces.

You are dead right zionism is unacceptable to nazi ideology. They probably figured the arabs would kill them. And they were (eventually) right about that. And you are right they collaborate with the 'mufti' guy because Hitler had some sort of admiration for arabian culture.

You will probably say next that the Germans did not have Jews in the army or on their payroll. Bollocks. I am guessing you also think the nazis were on some extermination campaign for just the jews? All I can say is that if that WAS their intention, it would have been done. They had more than enough leftover gas from WWI alone to do so. They killed all the mentally/physically challenged with no problem. Other than hell awaiting them for it.

The truth is that nazis were against ANY OBSTACLE TO GERMANY. That is why the communists were 'genocided', because of their 'loyalty', was not to Germany, but to the people. They thought the same way of Jews, their loyalty was not to Germany. But you know what? There were many patriotic German Jews (and I think Hitler was probably one of them) so he was okay with that. Just not in their "purist" SS, they needed to be blonde even for that. And they did not want them to marry their German 'breeding stock' as they were notorious evil genetisists. That is inhumane but Jews hate when their kids marry outside of Judaism anyway.

Why do you think Jews lived in Europe and not immediately in Israel at this time? Because they were happy there! Then some maniacs saw them as a threat and storm their houses.

The holocaust was good for zionism, because it scared people to moving to Jerusalem. Even you have to admit the British would not allowed sovereignty if not for their suffering.

Honestly I dont see a lot of difference between nazism and zionism, there is the delusion of superior people, kicking people out of their homes, the idea of 'lebensraum', you know, the settlements? Im sure the arabs have their own version of this ideology too, some think non-muslims are kaffirs and should leave that land.

I dunno, Jews and Arabs get along fine and with everyone else here, it always seems just the mddle east is the problem. Must be the heat


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 05:26 AM by blueorder
Originally posted by Ridhya
reply to post by mattpryor

You're hilarious. You can imply I am a nazi all you want to get people against me but it will never work. I am a proud Norseman and obviously you do not know history, because Norwegians kicked the Nazis ass and never surrender even with our inferior and outnumbered forces.

You are dead right zionism is unacceptable to nazi ideology. They probably figured the arabs would kill them. And they were (eventually) right about that. And you are right they collaborate with the 'mufti' guy because Hitler had some sort of admiration for arabian culture.

You will probably say next that the Germans did not have Jews in the army or on their payroll. Bollocks. I am guessing you also think the nazis were on some extermination campaign for just the jews? All I can say is that if that WAS their intention, it would have been done. They had more than enough leftover gas from WWI alone to do so. They killed all the mentally/physically challenged with no problem. Other than hell awaiting them for it.

The truth is that nazis were against ANY OBSTACLE TO GERMANY. That is why the communists were 'genocided', because of their 'loyalty', was not to Germany, but to the people. They thought the same way of Jews, their loyalty was not to Germany. But you know what? There were many patriotic German Jews (and I think Hitler was probably one of them) so he was okay with that. Just not in their "purist" SS, they needed to be blonde even for that. And they did not want them to marry their German 'breeding stock' as they were notorious evil genetisists. That is inhumane but Jews hate when their kids marry outside of Judaism anyway.

Why do you think Jews lived in Europe and not immediately in Israel at this time? Because they were happy there! Then some maniacs saw them as a threat and storm their houses.

The holocaust was good for zionism, because it scared people to moving to Jerusalem. Even you have to admit the British would not allowed sovereignty if not for their suffering.

Honestly I dont see a lot of difference between nazism and zionism, there is the delusion of superior people, kicking people out of their homes, the idea of 'lebensraum', you know, the settlements? Im sure the arabs have their own version of this ideology too, some think non-muslims are kaffirs and should leave that land.

I dunno, Jews and Arabs get along fine and with everyone else here, it always seems just the mddle east is the problem. Must be the heat


great post



reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 05:27 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Ridhya


Settle down mate!

I certainly did not accuse you of being a Nazi. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I did say was that your statement that the Nazis supported Zionism is completely flawed and incorrect, and is "one of those things" that has been circulating on the internet of late to defame Zionism and Israel. If you can find one reputable historian who will support your view then I'm all ears.

Nazism was good for Zionism? I'm sure the millions of Jews who were murdered in gas chambers are delighted about it. And the hundreds of thousands of survivors, who went to Israel because they had NOWHERE ELSE TO GO, having lost the family, friends, belongings, home, everything. I'm sure they're chuffed to bits about good old Adolf.

As for Zionism equating to Nazism, how on Earth do you reach this conclusion? Israel is a country of refugees. Those refugees have worked and fought and died to make something good in the world, in spite of every obstacle thrown up at them, and now they just want to be left the hell alone to live in peace without worrying about suicide bombings or rockets landing on their heads.

I get the fact that you don't like Israel, and you don't like Zionism. It's okay to dislike a country, it's okay to have prejudices. It's human nature. However, comparing Zionism to Nazism is just plain offensive. You don't like that I'm offended and call you up on it? Tough.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 05:37 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin


No, the British limited immigration to Israel because Arab leaders were threatening us with violence if we didn't. It had nothing to do with doing the best for the "indigenous population" - why do you think we would care? Seriously? - it had to do with politicians showing moral cowardice (for a change) by appeasing terrorism. Look where it's got us.

Those "illegal immigrants" you're talking about? Those were Polish, Hungarian, Czech, German Jews who were desperately trying to escape brutal persecution. You think they left their homes, jobs, lives, for the fun of it? Do you think they were going anywhere safer than where they'd come from?

I honestly think that some people are only capable of feeling sympathy for one side of this conflict, and will go to any lengths to demonize the other side.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:27 AM by Lazyninja
Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin


I honestly think that some people are only capable of feeling sympathy for one side of this conflict, and will go to any lengths to demonize the other side.


Luckily we have people from the Jewish Defense League, like you, to put us straight right? I mean we must be really, really stupid to not see the simple truth that Israel are the persecuted ones here, right?

I've checked your profile, matt. You don't post in normal ATS threads. It's fairly obvious who you are and why you're here. You guys really need to cover your tracks better. Try pretending to act like a normal ATS member and post in some alien threads now and then, it'll make you look more like one of the natives.

But I'd like to know how, despite the best efforts of the Zionists and the many many legal and psyops organizations under it's control, like the JDL, has the international general public come to the conclusion that Israel is a state that regularly flouts international law, and is persecuting Palestinians and grabbing land unlawfully?

I mean right now Muslims are not exactly flavour of the month by any means. Some people just regard Islam as a religion of terrorism. Also Muslims don't have money or influence invested in western politics or media, unlike the Israeli Jews. There is no Muslim equivalent of the JDL, that hacks and socially engineers the destruction of "Anti-semetic" websites.

Could it be that through the reports of organizations that are not totally under the control of zionists (BBC, Amnesty, Red cross, UN and many others) that the truth, despite the best efforts has just has to come out? It is too big a thing to cover up, quite simply.

So you explain, how on earth have so many people come to the wrong conclusion?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Lazyninja]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:33 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Lazyninja


I have my own opinion thank you, and I will continue to express it as I see fit. Don't like it? Put me on ignore or go to another site. I couldn't care less.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:35 AM by Lazyninja
reply to post by mattpryor


I don't care about your opinions at all actually. You seem to care about ours though.

Want to answer my question about how we have all been so monumentally misled into thinking what we do about Israel? No you don't, because you cannot explain it.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:39 AM by mamabeth
reply to post by buddhasystem


This nation was not originally secular.For your information,I am already
labeled a terrorist by the ACLU!
It is not my fault if you're closed minded and allow others' posts to sway
your decisions.



reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:42 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Lazyninja


Because you, along with the much of our liberal and left-leaning media, UNRWA, Amnesty International, HRW, are only happy to believe every negative thing about Israel that you hear, and dismiss everything Israel or Israelis say in their defence as "propaganda".

Because rather than accept that someone should have a different point of view to you and has the balls to argue for it, you would prefer to dismiss them as irrelevant precisely because of their opinions.

Because you are on the same side of the argument as Jew haters, neo-Nazis, Islamofascists, revolutionaries, and President Ahmadinejad. Oh and Gaddafi. And George Galloway. Those people are never, ever right about anything.

But mainly because rather than swallow every piece of Jew hating propaganda I can find, and gleefully distribute it as quickly as possible, I prefer an objective approach where I listen to both sides of the debate before forming my own opinion.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:45 AM by Lazyninja
reply to post by mattpryor


So your basic answer is gullibility, that people believe whatever they hear.

The question then is who is feeding so many gullible people so much false information, and why?

Y'see the part that I have a problem understanding really is the money against people like Galloway, Gadaffi Mr A. Who really takes those people seriously?

It's not as if there are any semi-coherent people fighting in the Palestinian corner. Just a few politically independent organizations mentioned earlier.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Lazyninja]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:57 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Lazyninja


It's called reading the news and paying attention to a range of opinions and exercising objective, critical reasoning.

But if it makes you feel less afraid, stick with your dogma and carry on following the herd.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 07:13 AM by mamabeth
Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by Lazyninja


It's called reading the news and paying attention to a range of opinions and exercising objective, critical reasoning.

But if it makes you feel less afraid, stick with your dogma and carry on following the herd.


Excellent post,a star for you.I wonder what kind of herd they are?
Sheeple,that blindly follow or cattle mooing onward to the slaughter?


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 07:17 AM by Lazyninja
reply to post by mattpryor


I have been reading the news, and I have been paying attention to a range of opinions. And to the best of my knowledge I was being objective and critical. I must have failed somewhere because I arrived at the wrong opinion?

As for being afraid, what would I have to be afraid of? I'm born from a Polish Jew father, but I don't have any political or religious affiliation, can you say the same? It's not racial or religious bias which led me to my views, it has only ever been reasoning.

As for herds and dogma, you yourself have dogma, and are in a herd, albiet a smaller one. Of course it's true that whoever shouts the loudest is not automatically correct, but as a general rule, if there is international outrage it's for a good reason.

By the way you have still failed to answer my question, nobody ever has incidentally.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Lazyninja]
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