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Clinton calls Israeli concessions "unprecedented"

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posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by mattpryor



The difference is that you see injustice in the way Israel behaves towards Palestinians, and while I can sympathise with that to an extent, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you think it is, and I see a far bigger injustice in the way the media and the UN portrays Israel.


The media might be on a bandwagon, but I can't see why the UN would be playing favouritism. Israel is a member state of good standing correct?

Then there's the strategic importance of Israel. Now more important than ever. You'd expect that in return for being so nicely strategically placed, that the UN would like to keep Israel sweet. Yet despite the best efforts of the US trying to veto stuff left and right, we have information about Israel slipping out, it must be very frustrating for Washington and the Israeli government both.

I've seen what you said about the Goldstone report already. Sure it may have been a botched job, but you know the conditions that the investigation was conducted under, hardly optimal. Why did they refuse the thing in the first place if they have done nothing wrong. Why won't they allow their military to talk? Israel knew that there was simply too much to cover up and stonewalled the whole thing.

You deny being an apologist, but it looks very much to me like the actions of an apologist when you lazily label important independent reports as "exaggerated" This gets back to what I was talking about earlier. There are so many different charities and organizations are all exaggerating and innacurate to the detriment of Israel, and never to the detriment of Palestine. It makes no sense.

The way Israel has acted in this conflict militarily has always been wrong. They should be treating this as modern warfare since they are fighting a modern enemy. You do not need tanks and bombs and air support to combat terrorists. Do things like that, and you're just going to end up with a ton of civillian casualties and all of the problems that causes, one of which being lack of international support. However the way Israel (and the US) conduct their warfare seems to indicate they don't give a damn about international opinion. Doesn't stop Israel complaining that it is against them though.

Israel needs to change it's strategy if it wants a real solution to this whole thing. The ball really is in their court, as the Palestinian people have no way of controlling Hamas, and nothing to bargain with. Israel has the money, the hardware, and intelligence agencies capable of putting together a good counter terrorism force, which could combat Hamas surgically, but totally lacks the political will to do so, because Israeli politics is too heavily influenced by the stubborn old Zionist fools.

Basically if Israel sorted out their military response, and treatment of the average Palestinian citizens, there would be no need to worry about the western media, or contents of UNHRC, Red cross, or Amnesty reports.


[edit on 9-11-2009 by Lazyninja]




posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 03:54 PM
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A timely reminder of what Israel does with all the support it gets from the rest of us.





posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by bigyin
A timely reminder of what Israel does with all the support it gets from the rest of us.



And it will go on, while support and weapons come from the US the world will continue to turn a blind eye to the death and destruction.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


These are my views about Israel's neighbours. See any judgemental hatred in them?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by mattpryor]


Yes, your first post.


Why do I care about it? Because Israel is a pluralist, democratic country surrounded by about a billion people who hate Israelis - not because of perceived "oppression" of Palestinians, most Arabs don't give a crap about Palestinians unless it's for political reasons - but because they are not Muslims. I can't stand hatred and intolerance, it p*sses me off. And you'll only find that hatred and intolerance, by and large, on one side of the conflict and the surrounding debate, with few exceptions.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by bigyin
 


Very good video! I love babies and children,I don't care what race,color,
nationality or creed! It's the children, who suffer the most,because the
adults can't get along.They pay the price for our pride,arrogance and
stupidity.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by bigyin
 


Very good video! I love babies and children,I don't care what race,color,
nationality or creed! It's the children, who suffer the most,because the
adults can't get along.They pay the price for our pride,arrogance and
stupidity.


True, so how do you support Israel's targeting of women and children?



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 09:54 PM
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Warning - gruesome reading, photo's and reality.

www.amnesty.org...



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 04:52 AM
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reply to post by Lazyninja
 


This is a very interesting discussion by the way


In the UN general assembly there's an automatic bloc that supports any resolution or motion against Israel which comprises of the 57 OIC countries and about 40 others (including champions of civilization like Venezuela). This makes up the vast majority of countries that voted in favour of referring the Goldstone report to the security council.

The UN Human Rights Council has been accused by many, including Kofi Annan, of focusing its attentions almost exclusively on Israel. Doesn't this seem a little odd?


On 29 November 2006, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan criticised the Human Rights Council for "disproportionate focus on violations by Israel" while neglecting other parts of the world such as Darfur, which had what he termed "graver" crises



By April 2007, the Council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel, the only country which it had specifically condemned.


Source

Check out this speech at the UNHRC by UN Watch, which was banned, it's quite entertaining:



I think the UN does some fantastic work around the world, but I'm in no doubt that as a large, multi-faceted, powerful and largely unaccountable body it is open to exploitation by people with an agenda. I also don't discount the probability that parts of it have an institutional political culture, and the UNRWA is a prime example.

Let me explain:

Think for a moment about how you feel about Israel. You're disgusted by them, you're angry about them. Right? Well imagine how people working within UNRWA feel, who've been working for years to try to help Gazans with their schooling etc. Of course they're going to think the worst about Israel and the IDF when Israel starts a war against Hamas. You just had to watch that Guinness guy interviewed by the Beeb to see how much disdain he had for Israel, salivating with righteous fury about the IDF bombing a UN school (which they didn't, by the way). The point is, not that they're not entitled to feel that way, but they are not neutral. How can they be?

Do you see my point?

Even if there is the odd person that thinks "hang on, these Gazans have been dropping rockets on Israel for years, what else are they supposed to do?" their voice isn't going to get heard.

Bias isn't necessarily caused by ill intentions, quite often it's just how people feel, and how they interpret events. I don't think anyone can be left in any doubt that the majority of well intentioned, liberal humanitarians regard Israel in a negative light (which makes those of us that don't seem like monsters). My point is that when that bias exists media and organisations like the UN it becomes a self-perpetuating feedback loop, which is a highly dangerous situation.

Here's my challenge to you: Find me one person within Amnesty International who has a good word to say about Israel. Do you think it's likely?

Therefore, as an outside and objective observer, I think it's important to bare this in mind and remember that what the media and humanitarian organisations say isn't necessarily the truth. It may be what they believe is the truth, but remember there are about 8 million Israelis who will disagree, so shouldn't their opinion count as well? People usually dismiss this as irrelevant, but I think it's highly relevant, since those are the people whose lives are most affected by decisions the UN makes and the way their country is portrayed.

Over to you!



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by mattpryor
 


Actually, not all 8 million jews are for zionism. A prominant human who happened to be Jewish, Albert Einstein opposed the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Albert Einstein was also anti-Zionist. He made a presentation to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, which was examining the Palestine issue in January 1946 and argued against the creation of a Jewish state. Einstein also later turned down the presidency of the state of Israel.56 In 1950 Einstein published the following statement on the question of Zionism.

I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from the practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain -- especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight without a Jewish state.57


For a large list of prominant Jews who oppose zionism, see here:

Jews opposed to zionism



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 06:16 AM
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reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


So? I'm not passing judgement on them. The situation is what it is. Education standards aren't particularly high in Arab countries, and media is generally very anti-Israel. I don't think I'm stating anything controversial or judgemental, but this is the reality Israel faces.

Fact is that there is a large percentage of people in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq who would rejoice in the streets if their leaders bombed the hell out of Israel tomorrow. Fortunately most of their leaders are a bit more pragmatic.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


I support Israel because they are God's chosen people.I wonder how
many atrocities the U.S. has committed since it's founding?I still stand
behind my country.
You name one country that hasn't committed human rights violations?



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by mamabeth
 


I'm sorry mamabeth, then you support genocide. You and your ilk are on the wrong side of history. Does the God you follow call for genocide? With the statements you make the term "fundamentalist extremist" could cetainly apply to you.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 08:01 AM
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reply to post by siahchi
 


King James Version.
Joshua11:19&20
There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel,save the
Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon:all other they took in battle.
For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts,that they should come against Israel in battle,that he might destroy them utterly,and that they might
have no favor,but that he might destroy them,as the Lord commanded Moses.
I stand by God and His chosen people,nothing can change my mind!



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by prof-rabbit
 

You name one country that hasn't committed human rights violations?


That I cannot do, is this how you justify the shooting of small children?



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by siahchi
reply to post by mamabeth
 


I'm sorry mamabeth, then you support genocide. You and your ilk are on the wrong side of history. Does the God you follow call for genocide? With the statements you make the term "fundamentalist extremist" could cetainly apply to you.


Yes, the god of Abraham is on record calling for the death of whole ethnic populations.


God drowns everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) Genesis 7:23,

God and Moses help Joshua kill the Amalekites Ex.17:13,

Massacre of the Aradites Num.21:1-3

God delivers the Bashanites into Moses' hands and Moses kills everyone "until there was none left alive." Num.21:34-35

God delievered the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people. Dt.3:3-6

God delivers the Hazorites. Joshua 11:8-12


And on and on it goes, the Israelis have a very long history with respect to genocide. Of course "God made me do it" is also a classic excuse.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


You're funny. The only slight problem with your argument is that the Israelis have not committed genocide. Nor have they tried to, or even wanted to.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by siahchi
 

I stand by God and His chosen people,nothing can change my mind!


You are correct, nothing will change your mind, least of all what I type. The three Abrahamic religions are based on bloodshed and violence, Christian, Jew or Muslim.

So please don't be surprised when the rest of us think your savages.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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Of course those who disagree with the Israeli aspect are at a disadvantage, whenever the subject is Israel you have posters turn up almost out of the blue. Vis.


The Megaphone, which was first reported on in The Jerusalem Post when it made its debut in July during the Lebanon war, alerts activists about polls and articles about Israel on the Internet and enables them to express their support or opposition by e-mail.

After just four months, it had been downloaded by more than 25,000 people from the Web site called GIYUS (Mobilization) which stands for Give Israel Your Support.

Amir Gissin, who heads the Public Affairs Department at the Foreign Ministry, has been working behind the scenes to promote the idea.

"During the war an initiative began, and we had the opportunity to do some very nice things with the Megaphone community," Gissin recently told the David Bar-Illan media conference in Ariel.

"An Israeli company developed a type of software that functions like a beeper from one central place. They send alerts and anyone who downloads the software gets a pop-up with links to an activity. It can be to vote for Israel in a CNN survey or react to an especially nasty article. We still have a long way to go, but this is our future."



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


You sound a bit paranoid.

Why can't you just accept the fact that there are lots of people interested in the Middle East, and some of those people support Israel and some don't? I think ATS posters are comprised of roughly equal numbers of both, and I think the fact that we debate these things is healthy and democratic.

Why does there have to be a hidden agenda?



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by prof-rabbit
 


You sound a bit paranoid.

Why can't you just accept the fact that there are lots of people interested in the Middle East, and some of those people support Israel and some don't? I think ATS posters are comprised of roughly equal numbers of both, and I think the fact that we debate these things is healthy and democratic.

Why does there have to be a hidden agenda?


I'd like to put your theory to the test.

Does ATS allow polls ?

I doubt Israel has 50% support on here.



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