Gary McKinnon suicidal following U.S. bullying

reply to post by Malcram


He deleted files from 9 computers which shut down 2000. What's the big problem here? You think he's any less guilty? 60 years ought to teach him a lesson and send a message to other hackers.

I'm editing my posts to re-word some things I have said or fix spelling errors.

If you want to imply I'm removing things I've posted, feel free to have someone at ATS pull up a record so I can prove you wrong on that also.

Now you're just making me laugh because you're resorting to twisting things around when you're proven wrong.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Malcram

 

He deleted files from 9 computers which shut down 2000. What's the big problem here? You think he's any less guilty? 60 years ought to teach him a lesson and send a message to other hackers.

Hmm, setting him on fire dragging him through the streets from the back of a truck while crowds chant and spit and wave the stars and stripes would send a bigger message don't you think? Maybe they should do that.

And again, no, that is what he is ALLEGED to have done by the U.S., not 'what he did'. You need to learn the difference.


[edit on 12-10-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by Malcram


If that were the case, we would have trouble securing future extraditions. 60 years will do.

The US government wouldn't waste time and resources if he weren't guilty and couldn't prove what he is accused of in court.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Malcram

 

If that were the case, we would have trouble securing future extraditions. 60 years will do.

The US government wouldn't waste time and resources if he weren't guilty and couldn't prove what he is accused of in court.

What have they done exactly?

They've done nothing but a lot of talk. They have NEVER provided proof that he deleted those files. The entire extradition is based on the one thing they can't actually prove. Because he NEVER did it.

Whatever evidence they provide in court, will be what they created themselves. Watch, it'll suddenly pop-up out of nowhere like they had it the entire time.

You clearly don't know a whole lot about the case. I call BS on your research claim. Unless you mean researched as in you read about it for about 15 minutes and became bored.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Malcram

 

If that were the case, we would have trouble securing future extraditions.

LOL. You have a point there.

60 years will do.

Wouldn't you feel any compassion or a sense of injustice if the guy had to spend the rest of his life in jail in a foreign country, far away from his family, for this? Even a little?

The US government wouldn't waste time and resources if he weren't guilty and couldn't prove what he is accused of in court.

Just like they wouldn't attack and invade Iraq if Saddam didn't really have stockpiled WMDs?

These people have different agendas, and it has little if anything to do with the truth or justice.


[edit on 12-10-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by nightmare_david


I see you know everything about the case, have access to all the evidence, and proof the government will or has fabricated evidence against your martyr. Very well then, case closed.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Malcram

 

If that were the case, we would have trouble securing future extraditions. 60 years will do.

The US government wouldn't waste time and resources if he weren't guilty and couldn't prove what he is accused of in court.

They will prove it , American army, government can do anything they want.
Specially int his case where there is not clear witness.

Originally posted by jess0
This makes me so angry! oh yeh right it cost them £1 million thats ridiculous how can you loose money by looking at files?

Wear and tear of the bits and bytes, I suppose.

Originally posted by stevegmu
He deleted files from 9 computers which shut down 2000. What's the big problem here? You think he's any less guilty? 60 years ought to teach him a lesson and send a message to other hackers.

Sorry but that sounds incredibly unbelievable to me. If the deletion of files (which he, by the way, has denied doing) on 9 systems can cause an additional 1991 systems to shut down then those 9 systems has to be quite important server systems. Given that Pentagon and NASA ought to know at least the basics of technology and computer security, there's no chance in the world that they had blank root passwords on such major systems. No, the systems he managed to log in to had to be either honeypots or poorly, lab systems or poorly administered desktops. I also find it hard to believe that there would not be a firewall in place to limit external access to internal systems.

The only message this will send to hackers is to be more careful and seek other ways.

I'm seriously wondering whether this case, and perhaps others, tie-in to a wider issue.

Whilst September the 11th, who ever was behind it, was an incredible tragedy, the American reaction to it, whilst understandable, was also a little strange. Reading and watching much of the American response to it - and, to be fair, you'd have to live in an isolation tank to avoid it - was interesting. Judging by some of the response, you'd think this was the first act of terrorism by outsiders* anywhere in the world. As if no other country has ever had to deal with it. Yes, September the 11th was a massive event in terms of scale, but the a lot of places all around the world has had to deal with the on-going threat of terrorism for a long, long time.

Similarly, when you hear many Americans talk about what happened at Pearl Harbour**, which again was a genuine tragedy, as is any event where there's a loss of life anywhere in the world. However, whilst it was an attack on an American annexe it was sold as, and is still thought of now, as an attack on the America itself; like a knife through its heart and soul. The reality is that Hawaii, as most Americans probably know although many non-American might not know, is 2000 miles away from the American coast. America properwasn't really endangered. Now compare that to the bombing and devastation that many countries took for years even before America entered the war.

Just to reiterate, I'm not diminishing these events, just trying to piece together the difference in perspective that America has compared to the rest of the world with incidents and events that occur on their soil.

I'm seriously wondering whether the way McKinnon is being treated is actually part of this wider issue. America, despite doing their best to make a career of it themselves elsewhere, isn't really used to things happening on their soil, or on their territory. Where they have no compunction when they're responsible elsewhere, the affront they feel when it happens to them is magnified incredibly.



*or at least it was sold as being be perpetrated as such.

** Hawaii is something that I always laugh about when Americans go on about the theft that incurred during the British Empire.

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by nightmare_david

 

What, you think the US government is after him for money? He has none. Bringing him to the US and prosecuting him will probably cost several $100000. A conviction and jail sentence will send a message to the next hacker who wants to infiltrate our systems. [/qu

STEVEGMU

You talk as though you own the systems, as you also take this very personally, what part of the Government do you work for again ?

[edit on 12-10-2009 by Qwenn]

reply to post by stevegmu



Unfortunately the message that was written into movies from the 90's like "The Net" and "Hackers" is that civilians need to bring corrupt government to justice vigilante style by attacking their computer networks.

Anybody that administrated systems back in the 90's knows how vulnerable computers connected to the internet were. Leaving the telnet port open prior to 1990 was practically never a problem because there was an open environment that was used with trust and respect. Its no surprise that when access log files started getting deleted, the practice had to stop and all the government systems needed to be modified *before* a real crisis occurred.

I'm still waiting to hear why Gary turned out to be the chosen cat that alleged;y triggered a mass panic.

During the 90's the media started coming out with movies like "The Net", "Hackers", and the X-files which depict the US government as terrorists.
People like Gary would have seen the planned obsolescence of the Twin towers and Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in the earlier X-files entertainment works. Gary left notes on some of the computers he accessed stating his confusion over that issue.

A trial requirement that all jurors watch and fully comprehend "Fight the Future" is a little unusual.

Clearly the Gary Mckinnon case is not just about TELNETTing to government machines and deleting a few log files. Perhaps he planted a note on some generals desktop calling them on 9/11?

reply to post by Malcram

This whole thread is about 'punishment and law' isn't it?

No. This is a story about a guy who is being accused of a crime related to UFO's. If this wasn't the case, the mods would already moved it to another part of the forum, so, it isn't just me thinking this way.

Doesn't that directly refute your point that this is only about UFO geeks defending each other?

It doesn't refute anything. It just states that he has supporters on all sides, I never said that only "ufo-people" believe in him, or neither I said that he was guilty or not.

I just think people need to start to think before picking sides. It's because of cases like this that we end up with bad characters in Ufology.

reply to post by Lazyninja


Every case that has media attention will have supporters and non-supporters. That's how things work, especially in the U.S. .

And about the "he comitted a crime against the USA, but he should be able to stay at home".

Well, since when this is a first?

People that get caught passing drugs in airports and stuff like that, will get arrested in the country where they committed the crime. It happens every day... But since this hacker claims he was searching for the truth, lets just give him a applause?

Well, you care about this guy... I care about the dozens of inocent people arrested in foreign countries (WAY worst than USA prisons, btw) and nobody hears about them. Why? Because they weren't """"""searching for the truth about UFO's"""""... They were just caught with something that wasn't theirs.

In this case, what people fail to understand is that what counts, is where you "hitted" rather than from where you "fired".

Yes, he was in the UK when he hacked the computers. But those computers where in the US, which gives them the right to bring him to their justice system. This is nothing extraordinary. Happens all the time.

People don't understand it because it has special characteristics... He was using technology, from a distance.

If he was in the US, slammed a hammer into one of NASA's PC's and got to UK, the same extradiction would happen.

reply to post by CHA0S


No. They love guys like Gary. That's why I believe he is just someone who has done nothing extraordinary. He just committed a crime and is crying out loud.

reply to post by StinkyFeet


there would be no point in that whatsoever it would be downright stupid. The courts can easily get other doctors to examine him and if they find the lawers lied then that would ensure his extradition and punishment.They would not make that choice when they had many appeals to go for and ruin his chances of stayin in the uk.

Originally posted by Tifozi
But since this hacker claims he was searching for the truth, lets just give him a applause?

I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued in favor of McKinnon not being legally punished.

If he was in the US, slammed a hammer into one of NASA's PC's and got to UK, the same extradiction would happen.

If he was in the US then he wouldn't need extradition, now would he?

It's the extradition that is at cause here, not whether McKinnon is guilty of breaching US Government computer systems, something he has admitted to.

What some people are against is that the US is requesting the extradition of a non-US citizen without having to provide any evidence for the accusations.

Yes, in this particular case the person being accused is guilty - he admitted to some accusations - but what if the US was accusing someone who claimed to be innocent?

So you're OK with the United States Government not having to provide any evidence in an extradition request? A US Government that, I remind you, has a lousy recent track record when it comes to telling the truth, not to mention torturing detainees and has the death penalty in some states.

You might be fine with that, but don't act as if people are out of their minds and not being reasonable asking for evidence of the accusations being put forward by the US Government.


[edit on 12-10-2009 by converge]

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
reply to post by ufo reality

 

Let's keep our heads when dealing with this person! He committed a crime and he has to pay for it. The dealing between nations has nothing to do with the basic crime. He is a criminal.

So were the founders of the US. Yes, he is a "criminal", technically, but he should be freed, and REWARDED for his "crime."

Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by Malcram

 

He deleted files from 9 computers which shut down 2000.

OMG! How horrible! LOL!!!!!

reply to post by converge


No, I'm not okay with someone being accused and suffering from any type of bullying without providing evidence.

But further more, I'm not okay with a lot of people going after and around this case, just because he talks about UFO's. Cases like this happen everyday, all around the world.

Why? Why are we here debating this guy just because of what he claims he was doing?

Where is the proof about UFO's? I'm in a UFO forum, that's what matters to me... Where is it? I haven't seen it... Have you? Why are we debating what seems to be a desperate person trying to get free from his charges?

Any person that committed a crime and claimed insanity, suicidal thoughts or any other type of justification, to many people in this thread, would immediatly be rulled out and not defended.

Yet, a person, that to me looks like is doing exactly that, and says the word "UFO", has already a conspiracy theory around him, that he is being bullyed, attacked by governaments, etc etc...

That is what I'm not okay with.

BUT, is only my opinion. Based on a fact... but my opinion.

Originally posted by Tifozi
Why? Why are we here debating this guy just because of what he claims he was doing?

I'm gonna throw this out there but, could it be because this is a UFO forum?

Cases like this happen everyday, all around the world.

And I suspect they are discussed just as enthusiastically in their respective forums depending on the nature of the allegations and the profession/hobbies/social status of the involved, as this one is here.

Where is the proof about UFO's? I'm in a UFO forum, that's what matters to me... Where is it? I haven't seen it... Have you?

If you're talking about UFOs in the general sense, yes I have seen it. Haven't you seen proof of unidentified flying objects? From this post of yours, I would risk it to say that you have.

If you're talking about UFOs in the alien sense, then no. I haven't seen it, but I don't see the relevance of that.

Yet, a person, that to me looks like is doing exactly that, and says the word "UFO", has already a conspiracy theory around him, that he is being bullyed, attacked by governaments, etc etc...

That is your opinion, that McKinnon is doing "exactly that" and I respect it, but I hope you respect opposing views as well, especially the ones who argue in favor and are based on the burden of proof and not some generalization you created to portrait that we're all behind McKinnon because it's, allegedly, UFO related and only that.

Another point I'd like to raise is that, are you really that naive to dismiss outright allegations of Governments unjustly attacking and bullying people? Where have you been for the last 8 years?

Have you forgotten about the hundreds of people who were taken to black sites or legal limbo prisons without any idea of the allegations against them, tortured and abused for years, denied any rights, then only to find out the Government had no evidence for their imprisonment or had taken the wrong person?

Also, bear in mind that it is the accuser who has to provide the evidence the accusations, not the other way around. Innocent until proven innocent, remember?

Yes, McKinnon could be making up excuses, but until the accuser (US Government) presents the evidence for its case, I don't see why I should give more credence to the accuser's allegations.

And neither should you, if you consider yourself a skeptic and impartial individual.