I am a member of the English Defense League

reply to post by neformore


Yeah, I get it, you have a real biased attitude towards those take up activities you call hooligans.

I don't think anyone is glorifying the activity, it is primarily young men blowing off steam. There are far, far worse ways for young people to deal with the frustrations of living in a world they were not biologically designed to live in.

Guess what, the people who want to control other peoples behavior, especially young people trying to have some fun, do far more harm than the people they are trying to control. Far more people get their lives destroyed, hurt, and killed by those who want to dictate the lifestyle of others.

Just because you disapprove of their lifestyle, doesn't mean you get to take away their right to free speech or assembly. When you start making these claims, then you are clearly going down the wrong path.

I notice no comment on the report that the Respect Party was the one trying to instigate violence.

reply to post by noangels


"Dream on sunshine"?

Not nearly as bad as the term you used. I got it right the first time.

Check the date, it is not just about Britain. This is a global problem.

edit, oh yeah, now I got USA under my avatar, happy?

[edit on 11-9-2009 by poet1b]

reply to post by poet1b


Haha. I don't go 'on and on' about neds. I used that as an example as to something i feel British society needs to be 'defended' against as i see bad things happen to good people every day. It is you my friend that are now going 'on and on' about my point.

I did not write that definition of 'ned' and have already stated in a previous post that they can be of any colour. Please see my previous post where i mentioned a comment from a Muslim friend tallking about 'Asian neds'.

You appear to like to imply that because i am questioning the EDL I am automatically anti-white and pro-extemist Muslim for some reason. I'm not sure why you want to push this agenda when i have specifically stated i am pro-any colour and anti-muslim extremism multiple times. Really, i'm pro-actually doing something about the things you're p'd off about and anti-standing in the street shouting and not actually doing anything. But that doesn't seem to register with you.

[edit on 11-9-2009 by Nammu]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by neformore

 

Yeah, I get it, you have a real biased attitude towards those take up activities you call hooligans.

I don't think anyone is glorifying the activity, it is primarily young men blowing off steam. There are far, far worse ways for young people to deal with the frustrations of living in a world they were not biologically designed to live in.

Guess what, the people who want to control other peoples behavior, especially young people trying to have some fun, do far more harm than the people they are trying to control. Far more people get their lives destroyed, hurt, and killed by those who want to dictate the lifestyle of others.

Wow, one of the most bizarrely reductionist statements i have ever read. So you think that hooligans are just 'young men blowing off steam', and we shouldn't try and control this phenomena as there are 'far, far worse ways' they could be doing it?

These are not 'spiffing English gents' engaging in Marquis of Queensbury rules deep in the shires. "Fair play, young chap, what what!"

Ok. I'm going to forgive you this one because of the lack of cultural context you possess. That's not your fault. But have a look at some of these youtubes and tell me what you think.

Birmingham Vs Aston Villa (really its Zulus Vs The police)
www.youtube.com...
(I'm going to this game on sunday. There will 100% definitely be violence afterwards)

Crystal Palace Vs Birmingham
www.youtube.com...

Zulus Vs Salford lads at a boxing fight. Not even a football game!
www.youtube.com...

A news report of Glasgow Rangers Vs The Police
www.youtube.com...

So now that you've watched these clips. Can you really, honestly, still think that this is just harmless fun, and we are wrong to try and control them?

These are the casuals that make up casuals united. Not these ones per se. But this is what casuals are, this is what casuals do.

The only way this could be 'far, far worse' is if we gave them all guns!

reply to post by poet1b


You make some very interesting points. Especially, that much of this can be explained as men finding a way of being that which they have evolved to be and in many ways, particularly in British men, that which they have been bred to be. Have you ever heard Chris Rock on selective breeding and slavery? Similar thing going on here. Certain elements of the British gene pool contain generation after generation of bred fighting machines, presumably out looking around for a cause to fight for, if they are not given one, they'll find one or invent one. They presumably live for the 'red mist'?

I would imagine that should someone come along, ply them with enough ale, get them fired up and point them in the general direction of a cause to fight for, they will do so and thank that someone for the opportunity.

I don't agree with everything you have said so far, but I appreciate your perspective.

And...my avatar, I don't know who the babe is I'm afraid, but glad you like it, I'm rather pleased with it myself.

Latest news on the protest:

Eight arrested in mosque protest

The anti-Islamic group had to call off the planned protest
Eight people have been arrested during a demonstration outside a mosque in north-west London where an anti-Islamic protest was planned.

About 1,000 people gathered outside Harrow Central Mosque as activists from Stop Islamification of Europe planned to demonstrate outside the mosque.

Unite Against Fascism were also present to "defend the mosque", they said.

Bricks, bottles and firecrackers were thrown at police officers who are present in riot gear at the scene.

Just after 2000 BST, police said there were a small number of people in the area. Mobile patrols are continuing in a bid to reassure residents.

Earlier, hundreds of youths, some covering their faces with scarves, were in the area and there were skirmishes with police as some demonstrators broke a police cordon.

'Saddened and dismayed'

Stop Islamification of Europe (SIOE) said they planned a "peaceful protest" against the building of a five-storey mosque next to the Harrow Central Mosque.

But in a message on their website SIOE said the protest had been called off and organiser Stephen Gash had been arrested.

The posting read: "If you are on your way to the demo, don't go, it's being called off right now.

"The police can't handle the Muslim counter-demonstrators. The senior sergeant said that he doesn't want any of his policemen killed."


Bricks and bottles were thrown at police
Seven people were arrested for possession of offensive weapons including a hammer, a chisel and bottles of bleach.

Police believe these arrests were not linked to the SIOE protest.

Another person was arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, police said.

Police also stopped a number of people, who they believed were heading for the anti-Islamist protest, from getting to the protest area.

"If the SIOE demonstration started it would have resulted in serious disorder," a statement from police said.

Councillor David Ashton, leader of Harrow Council, said: "We are saddened and dismayed that groups from outside the borough have come here and caused unrest.

"Harrow has an excellent record in community relations and we condemn those who came to our borough from elsewhere to either foist extreme political opinions on us or use religion as a cover for causing trouble."

reply to post by CRB86


If you are going to quote me, don't take it out of context.

Never said they should be allowed to tear up a city.

This is just a big dodge on your part.

What I said in the link of replies is this.

Yes, bystanders occasionally get hurt because someone gets out of hand, and it is not acceptable

Neformore is talking about not allowing these people they choose to label as soccer hooligans the right to participate in the political process, and that is wrong.

Clearly I am wasting my time trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.

These videos show nothing but people running around fighting without any explanation of who did what, or how it all started, yet prosecutor, judge, and jury you choose to be. All the fans who came to watch the game were hooligans? They are all members of some hooligan group?

Maybe this quote from the last video's commentary offers a clue.

the screens were brought down on purpose as far as im concerned, good wee exercise for Manchester Police, good chance to get some training, the riots were fuelled on purpose.

There could be a lot of things going on here under the surface that isn't even being mentioned.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Fans of England's national team do hit the headlines more than any other after their violent clashes on the international stage.

Hooligans in the rest of Europe, by contrast, usually fight their battles at home, often expressing local, regional or subnational rivalries.

But fans from Germany, Holland, Belgium and elsewhere have been prepared to bury internal differences to battle it out with foreign fans and police on the pavements of European cities.

You don't have to be sociologist to understand that football hooliganism is a reflection of the violence and divisions prevalent in any society.

Peter Marsh of the Social Issues Research Centre in Oxford said: "If you had thousands of working-class males congregating on a Saturday afternoon, and there were no fights, that would be very surprising."

Where the phenomenon is at it worst - in the UK, Germany, Belgium, Holland and Italy - about 10% of games witness "serious incidents", according to researchers.

"Given all the attention paid to this small minority of English fans that occasionally causes trouble, violence of some kind is inevitable," Dr Marsh says.

It may be no coincidence, therefore, that the British tabloid press gives English hooligans massive coverage after games, as well as stoking up the atmosphere of xenophobia before them.

Ah, but they are all animals to you. Take away their right to participate in the political process, is that what you are supporting?

You really think such an effort will make things go away?

reply to post by neformore


And you have done a good job of pushing the thread off topic. You want to make it all about hooligans when reports of what is going on in these situations are that it is the far left who is inciting the violence, not the hooligans.

More protests - more skirmishes and more arrests.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I get the feeling something is brewing.

This one is a better link to what happened earlier:


news.sky.com... 09215380167?



I said a while back that the streets of London or indeed England will start looking like the streets of Baghdad if we don't sort this mess out... by mess i mean too many religious folk here now building too many Mosques! And those extremists are here in our mist coz the bloody government have let them in here....

[edit on 11-9-2009 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist]

Firstly can I point out to those who flamed me for my ‘protest banning’. I fear that early morning posting lead to a rather gross mistake.

What I meant to state was that the Birmingham council should have not tried to ban one protest (EDL) while basically giving carte blanche to the UAF lobby (who bizarrely did not have one organiser who hailed from Birmingham. The one I spoke with was from Staffordshire). It was the hypocrisy to attempt to ban the smaller and by appearances sake, less riotous, group, while in effect handing the UAF mob the keys to the city and a selection of brick to hurl at police who were merely trying to protect citizens.

As such I am not the ‘totalitarian pawn of the State’ you seem to view me as. I am in fact a staunch libertarian who is very much involved in Anarcho-individualist movements. I do not mind my life being disrupted for the sake of a political movement, so long as all sides can be heard from.

Now on to a story about buildings:

Almost amusingly these protests seem to follow me around, as where I live in London is less than a 20 minutes away from Harrow central mosque.

To those who don't know the area well will probably think of Harrow as being a somewhat picturesque town with the well known Harrow boarding school and Harrow on the hill church which is visible from all over London.

What one discovers below this is not such a happy sight. Harrow is a hideous result of half conceived planning and hideous utilitarian buildings of mixed zoning right on top of each other. For instance on one street there is a factory, a shopping mall, a hotel and hospital all within walking distance.

When Harrow central mosque was extended it was highly controversial as it was to be replace an existing block of pre-war houses which had worked a more innocuous study centre and Mosque for many years before.

What replaced it was undoubtedly an eyesore. In the place of the traditional Levantine, Moorish or Arabic architecture one would expect from a mosque. Was a hideous construction of steel girders forming a faux minaret and dome; combined with a yellow stone building which appears more like some form of dystopian office block.

Below is an image of the previous mosque and the new one in the midst of construction.

mosques.muslimsinbritain.org...

Why, one might ask have I contributed so much time and effort to describing this single building which was little more than the location of this latest confrontation? Well the answer is more in the presence that this building has over the surrounding landscape and on local non Islamic communities.

As already mentioned Harrow is home to a well known Church on the hill in addition to dozens more, It also houses numerous Hindu, Jain and Sikh temples; as well as a Synagogue which sadly has had to be fortified after numerous firebomb and Molotov cocktail threats.
All of these buildings sit in their own locations with little impact upon the surrounding landscape. The new mosque however is different it dominates the low lying skyline as well as one’s visions when either entering Harrow by road or else by train. It is even noticeable from the high speed trains which travel into central London from around the country.

What this mosque symbolises in many people’s minds is some sort of architectural assault on Britain. Even in the mismatched utilitarian mass of Harrow it stands out. Sadly though any attempt to open a dialogue at the time of the construction was met with cries of Islamaphobia. There were major protests by the Muslim community against any questioning of the design or construction.

As such I once again find myself angered more at UAF than any other group. They this time have quite literally ‘defended the mosque’ the mosque which is at the heart of poor community relations in Harrow and the mosque which dominates not only the skyline, but also the mindset of people who have lived there for many years.

Jensy

I would just like to say that if anyone wants to start a thread on the causes, history, development, interntional variations and all other aspects of football violence and the casual culture I would gladly contribute.

That EDL and Casuals United have links with football fans / hooligans is undeniable, but why should that have a bearing on the validity and strength of their arguement on an unrelated subject?

Back on topic.
Government and Police are now putting the blame for Birmingham and Harrow solely on 'right wing parties' despite clear evidence that violence started with the UAF and their Socialist Worker type cronies. (Amazing how those who allegedly strive to 'Smash The System' are now working for TPTB].

I have no links to football in anyway except a very passing feeling of nostalgia about West Bromwich Albion, and thats only because My dad supports them and they got rammed down my throat as a kid. Basically I just look for the results... Thats as far as my interest goes.. Im not a mindless thug, I have degrees in geology and physics, unless you count being ex british army guys as being mindless thugs. However this morning I too joined the EDL. Why? Quote, ITV News,
"A cabinet minister has raised fears of a return to 1930s facism, comparing modern right wing groups to Oswald Mosely's Blabckshirts."
"Communitie secretary John Denham's comments came as he announced a drive to prevent white working class people being "exploited" by extremists."
So, just because we do not want our country to become an islamic state they want to demonize the average white british people and stop our free speech, shut us up, tie our hands, mannnn im to angry to string a coherant sentance together!!! I fought for this country, its citizens, its values that this goverment has eroded again and again. Time to take our country back!! Its them who are the extremists! Those who stifle free speech, who demonize those with alternative views, who legistlate against those who do not toe the line, sounds like facism to me!

I fail to see what the difference is between muslims coming over to Britain now and building mosques and Christians coming over to Britain 2000 years ago and building churches?

Maybe we should chuck them all out?

It was so much better in the old days before all these new fangled religions popped up. They're all nowt but trouble!

I'd like to quote the BBC say if i may:

news.bbc.co.uk...

Right-wing groups who claim to oppose Islamic extremism are trying to provoke violence on Britain's streets, the communities minister has said.

Fair enough eh? Hmm take a look at the following quote within the SAME article.

Local Muslims and members of Unite Against Fascism (UAF) confronted protesters from Stop the Islamification of Europe and chased them away.

So it's okay to chase away the right wingers who wish to protest....?

A minority of young Muslims then turned on police, throwing bricks, bottles and firecrackers.

And that's the clincher...

So - according to the article, the right wingers came to protests, were chased away, the muslims then attacked the police who were there to keep the peace.

Very hypocritical eh?

reply to post by Freeborn


The UAF seem a little strange to me... they oppose demonstrations against 'Extreme Muslims' yet they are protecting a similar view to what they say is 'Fascist' if you look at what the Muslim views are you can see that their community is just as bad as any 'fascist' organisation.... so what exactly are UAF fighting for?

I know it's probably ben discussed in this thread but it doesn't make sense to me....

On another note i see that that Choudrey bloke has yet again promised mass murder here in England... How they continue to let him live here is beyond me....

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
reply to post by Freeborn

 

On another note i see that that Choudrey bloke has yet again promised mass murder here in England... How they continue to let him live here is beyond me....

Can you find me a link please

Second line

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
reply to post by Freeborn

 

On another note i see that that Choudrey bloke has yet again promised mass murder here in England... How they continue to let him live here is beyond me....

Can you find me a link please

Second line

Now i know you will say 'it's The Sun Newspaper, can't be relied on blah blah blah' but sometimes this paper can bring some truths and get there before others....

www.thesun.co.uk...

Originally posted by Selahobed
I fought for this country, its citizens, its values that this goverment has eroded again and again.

You 'fought for this country' because that is what you got paid to do, it was your job. That is what a professional soldier does, you certainly did not fight for anything that I as a tax paying contributor to your wage believes in, so there is no need to feel any sense of superiority about your former employment. You're not special, you just got given a gun, were told who your enemy was and then did whatever else you were told to do. Little surprise therefore that you are still looking to others to tell you what to think.