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The intention here is to explore other's thoughts, philosphies, and practices, about forgiveness. I have welcomed and been curious about how others deal with this issue. I was pleased to see that other's had had dilemma's with it in their lives also, which many of them graciously shared.
I initially referred to the women's group to explain the manner in which I was prompted to contemplate the subject matter.
When another poster made the assumptive and presumptuous claim that these women were "idiots", and "they are not good", I felt compelled to speak up on their behalf.
It is appalling to me that someone could come here on what I consider to be an exploratory thread, and make sweeping generalizations about persons they do know not, and whose circumtances they will never fully realize.
You did remark about what you thought was the "point I was trying to make", being that the women are suffering because they cannot forgive. Yes. This was made in clear in the introductory post, in my mind, and as I explained, it is the reason for the thread.
You have disagreed with me in a courteous way, and I appreciate it.
But it is nothing, to agree or disagree about, or name call over. It is just a stating of personal beliefs, what works for others, and what does not, which I personally find very interesting and useful.
As for the title, I thought and think it is pertinent.
Yes, it sucks being human sometimes.
You wrote:"What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable."
I must ask whether you have an opinion on what is not forgivable.
It is not difficult for me to supply you with a list.
I must say, with no disrespect intended, if you must ask what is and is not forgiveable, you live in a much safer world than I do. By all means, send me a map.
Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
[mor
You ask a question, what is unforgiveable? I say forgiveness is not always the point. In the situation of child molestation and rape, it may not be necessary to forgive... but it also is not necessary to condemn or seek vengenace.
You wrote:"What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable."
I must ask whether you have an opinion on what is not forgivable.
It is not difficult for me to supply you with a list. Let's begin with a few questions.
"Is the holocaust forgiveable?"
"Is it forgiveable to ignore the genocide being committed in the Sudan? Or is it just easier to ignore?"
"Hey, how about the Twin Towers?"
"Are the cases summarized by the OP forgiveable?"
I was in a field of work closely allied to that of Lady in Waiting for twenty eight years. Attending an autopsy of a six month old child with multiple rib fractures and a brain swollen beyond the capacity of his as yet flexible skull will readily educate you on things that are unforgiveable. The child was shaken to death.
The answer to the questions above is quite simple. No. And I speak from a societal point of view.
Each of the cases outlined by the OP deal with tormented women who survived extreme childhood sexual abuse. They suffer from the lack of forgiveness that a segment of society has imposed upon them to make that segment of society comfortable.
Having prosecuted these cases over many years, the simple fact of the matter is that every day folks walking around would find life more pleasant to believe these things do not occur. And life is more pleasant if the victim "forgives" the abuser because, then...well it must not have been so bad.
I found cases of this type occuring in church settings extremely enlightening. Almost to a case a congregation would rally around the perpetrator.
I must say, with no disrespect intended, if you must ask what is and is not forgiveable, you live in a much safer world than I do. By all means, send me a map.
In a violent society such as which I live in, and I suspect MarcusE above, the idea of forgiveness and unforgiveable acts becomes very dfficult to deal with on a daily basis....It becomes a coping mechanism, I think, to say "it is unforgiveable", because if we we say we forgive, it can be misinterpreted to mean "I condone."
Everyone has either done terrible things or had terrible things done upon them. It is the essence of humanity, in a sense, that our suffering is a part of what makes us who we are... incremented and combined with the other aspects of the self.
Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Society is the environment in which we live.
I do understand now how you were using the term "social".
While above other species, human beings remain the premiere and dominant social group.
(Showing forgiveness) is "parlor-behavior" at it's finest. A learned behavior, which is superficial and not genuine.
(How genuine forgiveness reflects the real feelings) is not immaterial. It is the very substance. Your suggestion to "eat it and carry on" can create inner turmoil, and prevent healing.
1. At 18 months old a woman was brutally raped by her father. This essentially destroyed her internal organs, as you might imagine. Although now 31, she still wears a colostomy bag, and always will. The other "feminine" organs are now useless, or have been removed.
2. A age seven, a woman's mother poured a pot of hot boiling grease on her head. At 27, she has no hair, and has scarring to her face and shoulders.
Forgiveness is letting go of the need for revenge and releasing negative thoughts of bitterness and resentment. If you are a parent, you can provide a wonderful model for your children by forgiving. If they observe your reconciliation with friends or family members who have wronged you, perhaps they will learn not to harbor resentment over the ways in which you may have disappointed them. If you are not a parent, forgiveness is still an extremely valuable skill to have.
In the movie “Avalon,” the uncle stopped talking to his family members for the rest of his life because they started Thanksgiving dinner without him after he was excessively late for the zillionth time. What a waste of energy it is to stay angry for decades.
Forgiveness can be a gift that we give to ourselves. Here are some easy steps towards forgiveness:
•Acknowledge your own inner pain.
•Express those emotions in non-hurtful ways without yelling or attacking.
•Protect yourself from further victimization.
•Try to understand the point of view and motivations of the person to be forgiven; replace anger with compassion.
•Forgive yourself for your role in the relationship.
•Decide whether to remain in the relationship.
•Perform the overt act of forgiveness verbally or in writing. If the person is dead or unreachable, you can still write down your feelings in letter form.
What Forgiveness Is Not…
•Forgiveness is not forgetting or pretending it didn’t happen. It did happen, and we need to retain the lesson learned without holding onto the pain.
•Forgiveness is not excusing. We excuse a person who is not to blame. We forgive because a wrong was committed.
•Forgiveness is not giving permission to continue hurtful behaviors; nor is it condoning the behavior in the past or in the future.
•Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We have to make a separate decision about whether to reconcile with the person we are forgiving or whether to maintain our distance.
Forgiving and letting go can be very difficult challenges, but it’s even more stressful to hold on to grudges. There are several symbolic letting-go rituals that can help with the process. If you are having trouble forgiving someone else, write them a letter expressing all of your feelings and explaining why you need to let go. You don’t need to mail that letter — it is cathartic just to write it all down. You can also write down all of your excess “baggage” on a piece of paper and burn it or cast it into the sea in a bottle when you are ready to really let go.
Good morning. Please accept my apology for not being in last night. I would have loved to have had an active discussion with you.
In no way should you consider that I was baiting you with the initial list of questions regarding the holocaust, genocide, or the towers. It was a starting point.
To be totally upfront, I don't consider myself one of the every day folk. It does not come from a feeling of superiority or authority. As you referred to, it comes from being in the trenches.
Should I take anything of your post out of context, it is early and I'm on my first cup of coffee.
...The atrocities committed against the Chinese by the Japanese following their invasion of China in the 1930's have NEVER been forgiven. The inability to forgive has been passed down generations now. This is something embedded in their culture now.
In any "debate", if you will, the ultimate issue is defining your terms.
Having said that, I hope we can continue to discuss this matter.
Understand, there are issues specifically related to victimization that makes me angry. That will be self-evident in some of my posts.