Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

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posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:00 PM
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The premise in this thread is that forgiveness is not always what it appears to be, is more complicated than we know, and is quite often mistaken for other feelings.

I had the honor, recently, of speaking to a group of women who had been abused as children, in the most heinous of ways.

Somewhere during my presentation, I made a remark about "forgiving is not forgetting...it is remembering and letting go". I watched as their demeanor's changed. I saw hands go up over faces, and I saw tears. Many tears around the room. When I questioned them about what was going on, one woman voluteered that she had been assured by her minister, that she must forgive her abuser, or she was doomed to damnation. In other words, she was hellbound. She had tried everyway she could think of to forgive her abuser. But she could not.

I was stunned by this, and asked the women how many of them had forgiven their abusers. I requested a show of hands. One hand raised slightly, then went back down to her lap. I then asked, how many of them felt doomed because they were unable to forgive their abusers. All hands raised. All, or most all, by now, crying.

I was horrified. This led me on a quest to study forgiveness, what it really means, and whether or not it is as simple as we seem to think it is.

Can you forgive the unforgivable?

My first attempt at studying forgiveness was a book referred to me by a colleague. It is entitled "The Sunflower" by Simon Wiesenthal. Wiesenthal, in 1944, was in a Concentration Camp. He was fetched to the bedside of a dying nazi, who wanted the "forgiveness" of "a Jew". The nazi spoke his piece, (peace) to Wiesenthal. After standing beside the nazi's bedside for a few moments, taking in what was happening, and in full realization of the meaning of the encounter, he turned, silently, and walked away.

From this encounter "The Sunflower" was born. Wiesenthal asks a variety of people what would they have done, and whether he did the right thing, and the people in the book respond with multiple insights and scenarios about what they might have done, having been in those circumstances.

The final decision in the book..seems to be that sometimes forgiveness is simply not possible, or that it can take generations to forgive. (I'm thinking I'm not even Jewish, but I really don't think I have forgiven the nazi's).

Forgiveness is not as easy and as simple as it might appear.

And what is it, really? how do you know when you have forgiven someone? You invite them over to dinner? You say you have? You pretend as though you have?

And if you pretend, then doesn't that make it harder?

If someone is truly, truly, sorry, then it makes it easier.

If someone steps on your toe in line at the grocery.

But what about the big issues? Murder. Rape. Genocide.

What if you say you do forgive to please other people, but in your private heart, you don't.

Then what?

Do you find it easy to forgive?




posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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I want to know who gave me my first flag!!! I know who gave me my first star.....please come back and tell me, I'm funny that way!!!

Thank you!!!!!

This is my first thread.

Thank you very much, whoever you are.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


I have been humming and hawing whether or not to reply as my beliefs are different than most, but have decided to give it a go.

forgiveness,revenge,hate,jealosy,etc, are all products of your ego.

I believe in The Law of One which states that there is no right or wrong, good or bad, and therefore there is nothing to forgive.

Service to self or service to others are both paths that can be taken by someone. Neither one is "better" than the other as eventually you will end up at the same place. One just takes longer. You really have to be honest with yourself as to which one you want to follow in this life.

So for me to answer your question: Can you forgive the unforgivable?

I have to answer...There is nothing to forgive.

But believe me, I do understand where you are coming from and am not trying to convert nor am I passing judgement. Please don't misunderstand me.

I just figured you asked and I am giving MY point of view.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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Greetings,
Excellent post and a great question. I have often wondered about forgiveness. It is so difficult and so valuable. We are asked to forgive so that we may be forgiven. But do not forget that your sins are forgiven as well. There are certain things I think that we have to put on our Savior for they are to heavy for us to bear. We have to ask for the forgiveness of our persecutors and think of them as children. Like Stephen said," Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." When you find compassion you will find forgiveness.

Once again a great post which has put some perspective and insight into my thoughts about it..Thank you.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by tribewilder
 


I kind of agree with your law of one. Let me go further though...
In my personal experience, i've come to know that we, as humans, are subject to manipulation and influence, either from visible or invisible planes.

One of the problems humans have is the polarity of their conscience, caused by the manipulation of our mind from invisible spheres (astral planes). This polarity is the reason we are trapped in the physical sphere. Also, polarity is a close ally to spirituality. If humans would have a perfect balance in their soul, spirit, and ego, they would not have the problem with polarity of conscience.

Right, wrong, forgiveness, revenge, and all of the emotions you can think of are all part of the polarity of our conscience. In reality, it's all an illusion, and we are stuck in that illusion, until the day we realize what the game is all about.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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reply to post by lagenese
 


Hello,

I am not to familiar with the Law of One and who devised it. It is an interesting philosophy and i wish to learn of it further. Any direction for insight would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


This is actually a VERY complex psychological issue that the bible can't even touch on. I read a book about forgiveness, can't think of the name though. It was referred to me by my ex fiancee. Me and her had a VERY rough time together. We both did and said things that were unforgivable by our standards. The book supposedly helped her forgive me and so she referred it to me. I found that the issue of forgiveness is not a simple thing at all. It takes years and even then, no one can ever really forgive someone to the fullest when it comes to terrible things. As long as the memory is there, so is the residual emotions you felt during that time.

You can suppress emotions, you can push it as far back as you want. You can pretend like something never happened. But nothing can change history or time...yet anyways. And that will always be there. You cannot be who you are today without the past. Whether horrible or good.

Forgiveness should never be a question. Instead, you should ask "How did this event shape me into who I am today"? Instead of hating people for bad things that happened, do not forgive them, but keep in mind that you are who you are because of these events.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by lagenese
 


Hello,

I am not to familiar with the Law of One and who devised it. It is an interesting philosophy and i wish to learn of it further. Any direction for insight would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.


Here is what I am talking about. If nothing else, you should find it an interesting read.

The Children of The Law of One



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by Mr. Toodles
 


Yes, it is very complex. I can tell you have given it consideration, and I like your thoughts about it.

It hard. It's tough. I agree.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Sorry for not posting when I Starred and Flagged you. I'm like reading about 20 ATS and BTS threads simultaneously for the past 8 hrs now and I saw yours and was very intrigued and so I quickly read your OP and I felt not only had you put forth a very important issue [re the flag] but also put it across in a form that I could clearly understand [re the star] and so S and F for you.

Personal Disclosure: I believe there are certain well definable circumstances that merit no forgiveness...EVER! Finding out what circumstances we collectively can agree on so as to enforce this may be quite problematic though.


P.S. Sorry again. It bugs me too when it happens to me but sometimes a S n F is all I can afford to do with the amount of web reef that I cover! :shk:



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:53 PM
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This is a powerful and important subject. S&F for your for bringing this up.

This is a subject I have had to deal with many times in my long life.

I think that before forgiveness can happen we need to understand what may have been going on with the other person. This takes a lot of honesty with not only yourself but some insight into the other person. Until you can understand why things happened as they did you can not forgive. You are too filled with anger and pain, all the bitter memories. Trying to understand why the other person did what they did can help you accept that we are all here doing the best we can with whatever tools we have been given. Many of of us have been given no tools and have to learn as we go.

This being said, that is understanding what may have been going on with the other person as well as ourselves, will not take away the pain, only help you understand why it happened. And, sometimes, by not standing up for ourselves, or thinking we have no other choice, we allow these things to happen.

One other thing to consider, should we forgive if the other person has shown no remorse or asked forgiveness?



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 


Ahhhh, my Omegalogos, it 'twas you!!!

I'll always remember.

Thanks for coming back.

I liked your content also. I'm trying to pick brains about this subject.
It's a sticky-wicket. But deliciously complicated.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by liveandlearn
 


Good thoughts, and I cannot tell you how many times I have asked myself that question.

Do you forgive someone who has done you a terrible wrong, even if they haven't asked for your forgiveness?

Like you pointed out, you analyze their circumstances, but if they understand what they did, and still think it's okay...then what?

And what if your brain says : yes. But your heart begs to differ? And sometimes it is the other way around, you know?
It's complicated.

[edit on 5-7-2009 by ladyinwaiting]


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posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:12 PM
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I don't believe that you forgive someone. The truth is your hurt or resentment doesn't bother them at all. You could be thinking nasty evil thoughts about me this instant and I can honestly say I do not feel them. Forgiveness is more about making peace in your own heart and mind. To forgive is to let go the chaos and pain that was brought into your life. A stub toe is easy to forgive, rape not so much.

You never will really forget the traumas, and you don't need to to forgive. You only need to understand your own feelings. Let go of the hate and resentment that you feel toward a person because it only hurts you, it doesn't hurt them. When written down it sounds easy... but trust me it is not. When you encounter a person that has deeply hurt you the pain and hurt come back. Then comes the anger, guilt, and yes even shame. Funny how we feel shame about things done to us.

To forgive someone means to heal yourself. It does not mean that you condone their actions. It does not mean that you no longer think that what was done was wrong. It does mean that although they hurt you in the past you refuse to let the memory keep hurting you now.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by Histopherness
 


That's amazing. I need you to speak to the woman's group.
Truly awesome.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:23 PM
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It's interesting timing for at least one well known famous person: Michael Jackson. Many who comment on him now suggest the past is past and as-if that his accomplishments far outway these past allegations and concerns.(for now)

I would imagine the stories may come out now that he's gone as well. But, what about his forgiveness for his father that abused him also? Did MJ have alternate personalities? I would imagine so.

Before my own father died a couple of years ago, he seemed as-if he wanted me to forgive him for something. It was like.......which thing?

When it comes to certain types of abuses, I can only wonder what made them that way? Can you forgive that little boy or girl if you saw them being abused?

Psychology has much to answer with these questions also. Now there's talk of medications for PTSD, such as these abuses and military.

It's not just or really the forgiveness so much as letting go (enough) and being angry at the crime as the demon. Without any remorse, it would seem as-if the demon is still in charge as-if boastful.

It's then also important to mention the spiritual aspect in some way shape or form as a possible possession, if only a bizarre subconcious reenactment.

Without some type of group therapy or intervention, it would seem many are doomed to repress and reenact an event without even knowing it until it's passed on.

And yet, now we hear about the double standards with MKULTRA and the government itself that's demonized for an alleged different agenda. (OOBE, psychic abilities etc..." Sometimes you have to break a few eggs")

Human nature, it would seem, is that the beast within is always there. (the lower brain?)

Who's really in control? Blame the source, not the child.

The bible mentions the christ figure/teacher speaking about the hosts and the great hosts. Now science suggests mind control and possession in different forms, as-if to prove this. Alien or government implants, remote control; demonic behavior etc.

Our courts refuse to recognize these as possessions and yet.... theyused to.

Even so, a host is most likely only temporary and the demon is then free to find other hosts and victims to control and infect

There's so much we still don't or even want to understand.

Just remember, the double standards have always been there.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Thank you.

I have had the chance to put into practice forgiveness. I got the chance to forgive my father. Years of abuse made me hate him most the times. Then his suicide made me hate him even more for awhile. Especially since I didn't get to say goodbye. Over time I dealt with the bad feelings. I can honestly say today that I do not feel any hate for the man who was my father. Probably the only one in the family who can. They never have anything good to say about him and so I often don't talk to my family at all about it. I think I knew that I had forgiven him when I was showing an old picture of him to my children and I started to cry. It wasn't memories of abuse but knowing that he would have been proud of his grandchildren and I hurt that he never got the chance to meet them.



posted on Jul, 5 2009 @ 11:57 PM
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If G-d sends people to hell, that must mean He is not forgiving them. We are instructed to forgive as He forgave us. Ergo, He only forgives us if we ask, and change what we are doing. As simply humans, we can not know or judge whether someone is truly repentant, nor can we ever hope to understand all the factors involved, and what they are thinking or have gone thru themselves. So, IF THEY ASK we are to forgive over and over. If they DON'T ask, and DON'T admit fault, it is ungodly, it is EVIL to forgive them! But, as some have said, it hurts us more than it will ever hurt them. So what do we do? We let go of it, and let G-d handle it. Some think it is karma. In any event, they will pay for their actions. The Bible is quite clear; if G-d sees you delighting in their misery, He will desist. So, put it out of thought and mind, and perhaps pray for them to change. When bad things occur to them, ignore it, don't think about it at all~unless they are dead, and then I guess it doesn't matter if G-d lets up on them. I believe in Hell all right, but not the way I was raised. The Bible is quite explicit that there is no conciousness in hell, because they are dead! And on the way in, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then, nothing...But you are NEVER instructed to forgive one who does not ask you. Even G-d will not.


[edit on 6-7-2009 by Gregarious]



posted on Jul, 6 2009 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


posted on 5-7-2009 at 11:11 PM reply to post by liveandlearn



Do you forgive someone who has done you a terrible wrong, even if they haven't asked for your forgiveness?


I don't know. Maybe it is just acceptance and move on. But I do believe you have to examine yourself and your role in what happened.




Like you pointed out, you analyze their circumstances, but if they understand what they did, and still think it's okay...then what?


It is not just the brain analyzing the circumstances, it is also knowing their history and how they got to where they are in life. It is not that they think it is okay, it is trying to understand how they may be thinking and why





And what if your brain says : yes. But your heart begs to differ? And sometimes it is the other way around, you know? It's complicated.


Oh! I have been there done that as I am sure many of us have. You have to separate emotions from what is happening in reality and what it is doing to you. It becomes 'stockholm syndrome'


Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in abducted hostages, in which the hostage shows signs of loyalty to the hostage-taker, regardless of the danger or risk in which they have been placed

Wikipedia
I want to get more into this and perhaps give some insight by way of personal revelation tomorrow but I really must get some sleep now.

And I wish a peaceful night for all that have had to go through these very difficult circumstances and questions.

[edit on 6-7-2009 by liveandlearn]



posted on Jul, 6 2009 @ 12:51 AM
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Before I retire I wanted to say I agree with lagenese and add,

I think before we can forgive another we must first be able to forgive our self.





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