Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

I've always believed that if you have faith in a divine being then truly forgiving yourself for awful things and feeling that you've repented by coming to terms with your wrongs fulfills everything that would be "asked" of a divine entity that has any sense to it. The thought of just being repentant to an entity itself and not coming to terms with your own mistakes through self discovery, acknowledgment, and forgiveness doesn't even seem psychologically healthy and any religion with a main entity that teaches otherwise sounds maniacal.


[edit on 6-7-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

I've taken a lesson in my own heart on forgiveness, I meditated on it once and this is what I got.

If God is "love' , and we are made in that image then...
break down all the elements of what love is.
or the fruits of it. you will find love can not survive without forgiveness..

So if Love is the Kingdom
Forgiveness gets you a citizenship

As in the Our father prayer
'forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us.'
this is the catch 22

we get as much as we can dish out.

So in as much as a read your post i found that it is difficult and somehow impossible to forgive..AND I know EXACTLY why.

heres what i believe.

Now when I mention Jesus I don't mean the MAN but his lesson
forget about the silly argument if he lived or not ..let me just reference the lesson that he represents.

Jesus was sent to man as Gods forgiveness..
lets just simplify this ..to very simple to understand fundamental terms..
say we just took the forgiveness part of the heart of LOVE and put it in a body..and all it did during its lifetime...would be to DEMONSTRATE forgiveness..
you COULD see JESUS as the ultimate lesson example.

Kill it and it raises from the death..why? cause it is the power of FORGIVENESS to do that..DEath cant take LOVE OUT in any of its elements.
IT is the Thing that will survive ..
listen to the people who been to that other side..you don't here them talking about "I couldn't feel a thing' i seen the wrong i did and i couldn't feel anything about it'..yes your LOve in all its glory will go with you to testify..
good or bad..

now back to Forgivness..
so what is the message God sent into the world?
YOU ARE FoRGIVEN come home..

but JESUS keeps sayen believe In ME..
no man cometh t the father but through me..

so what is this? mean?

WE as human beings are not designed to be seperated from love..
and the fall is 'bad' thing that does..
and JEsus is Forgiveness..
and we just have to believe...but wait!!

does this mean that JESUS if you look at love as being a heart with different parts..that JESUS IS REPRESENTING THE FORGIVENESS PART?
Did God separate the part of love and make IT a LIVING PERSON? YES!
(In comes Holy Spirit.
had to die to become spirit. in the realm of man.)
and so we have to invite him into our company and learn from him and he will take root in our hearts..WE become whole through him.
WE ARE NOT Capable to forgive truly in this realm unless it is him in us that does the forgiving..We learn to appreciate this part of our LOve on an individual face to face level..
It is a wonderful thing to see this part of LOVE alive and walking among us ..
he was in the world and the world knew him not.

the mystery is now revealed.

what does the world suffer the lack of the most?
yes..forgiveness.

and who is Forgiveness? can you see the Glory in him?
So when does he come ? only when we have had enough of the killing, hating ..etc..and i don't just mean globally..you can see two children fight and then get to this place in there hearts right at the dinner table.


Jesus is not just a man..he is a lesson to mankind on what Forgiveness and its power is..

think of the many lashes to the back it would take to demonstrate..
how much LOVE can take ..and to what end would LOVE have to go to DEMONSTRATE ITS POWER? in your eyes..























[edit on 6-7-2009 by E†E]

[edit on 6-7-2009 by E†E]

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by Hemisphere

 

But it is those private, personal scars, both physical and emotional, that can and do ruin lives. Those people are in a tailspin with resentment and rage. The ones who do find their way to forgiveness, seem to fare better.

Much safer to forgive the dead or imprisoned. Those with resolution seem to fare better not perfect but better. Physical and emotional scars are reminders of what to fear. If you've received scars, you need to fear what caused them. Scars are proof of danger. If you deal with danger by forgiving alone you might experience a false sense of security but the danger remains. Forgiveness is for healing after the danger has been eliminated.

[edit on 7-7-2009 by Hemisphere]

[edit on 7-7-2009 by Hemisphere]

reply to post by Hemisphere


One can accept intellectually that the danger has been eliminated, but not so quickly on an emotional/psychological level. It haunts.

I just want to thank every one who has participated in this thread. I've gained so much insight here from your thoughts and disclosures.

Tonight, I meet with the abused ladies, again. I have gone through this thread this morning and taken notes from many of you to share with them.
There is so much intelligence and encouragement here, and so much hardship and bravery.

In this way, you are able to guide and assist others who are in dire emotional discomfort, and for this, I thank you.

ladyinwaiting

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Awesome, let us know how it goes! I am sure others will be interested, because I am.

I will be sending my hopes to those, that they might come through it all ok. (No prayers cause I am agnostic) But let us know how it goes. I did not have the best life myself and understand what it is like, and I can only hope they learn to cope as well as I have.

Forgiveness became much easier for me when I accepted the idea that we are all in this life together, and no one can choose the hand they are dealt. Most people who commit seemingly unforgivable offenses are in a great deal of pain or are confused, usually brought on by a painful upbringing.

When I need to forgive, I try to find peace and focus on my desire for people to eventually find their own peace and acceptance of themselves.

I no longer consider myself a "Christian" in the modern sense, but Jesus said to those beating and killing him, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Quite a powerful, loving point of view.

Ladyinwaiting, you present your case in such a way as to make us all focus on the internal aspects of forgiveness. However, what you are mostly talking about is the process of recovery from severe mental and/or physical trauma. Forgiveness 'in the heart' could well be part of that process, but we shouldn't confuse the two.

Your post also seems to suggest that forgiveness is mainly intended to benefit the forgiver. That is an astonishingly blinkered and selfish perspective. The prime and true beneficiary of forgiveness must always be the sinner, not the one who is sinned against.

Forgiveness is not primarily an inward, spiritual grace; it is an external, social act. Through it, both the perpetrator of the offence and its victim, as well as their families and communities, are enabled to draw a line under the episode so that life can once again return to normal. Such is the purpose of public acts of forgiveness and reconciliation: the handshake after the schooyard fisticuffs, the truth commission appointed in the aftermath of civil war. This is all the forgiveness that society requires, or demands, of us; it is not at all necessary that we forgive our tormentors 'in our hearts'.

It is true that Christians are asked to show a deeper, more personal forgiveness than this (in line with the injunction to love one's enemies). As you point out, ladyinwaiting, the obligation to do this, especially when backed with the threat of hellfire for those who cannot make such saints of themselves, can complicate and hold back the process of recovery from trauma. But let us be clear about one thing, and take comfort from it: no religious doctrine has anything worthwhile to say on this issue. Certainly not Christianity, which is pathologically confused about sin, punishment and forgiveness. But if Christians have special problems with forgiveness, it is for them alone to deal with it. The rest of us need not worry about them.

When someone does us an injury, the anger and resentment we feel, especially if we are helpless to defend ourselves or strike back, can be enervating and mentally destabilizing. It is desirable, certainly, to cease feeling this anger and resentment; to cease from obsessively reliving the offence and its aftermath or rewriting the scenario in our heads. But there is no one, agreed method for achieving this. From meditation to acting-out and abreaction, from prayer and penitence to exactment of physical reparations - the Arab custom of diya, for example - the prescriptions are many, various and often contradictory. I suppose how well a given method works has to do with the individual, the circumambient culture and the particular circumstances.

For me, personally, what works is finding something better to do. By the time I've finished that, whatever offence or offender was troubling my mind earlier has become an irrelevance, and vanished.

Forgiveness is indeed a very strange thing. You can't just do it and be done. I find it very hard to forgive someone when they have done something to warrant dislike and, as I always say: It either comes naturally or it doesn't come at all. That's the way I view emotions because, no matter how hard I try, I can't make myself feel a certain way about something and neither can most people. Forgiveness is definately one that falls into that category. If it doesn't come naturally then you're not forgiving at all and you probably never will. Or, after a period of time, you will grow to realise that you must let go, even if it is for the other persons comfort. I don't know how much of what I have written has been said before on this thread because I haven't read the whole thing but I'll just say that it cannot be forced.

Ramadwarf on feelings

liveandlearn
should we forgive if the other person has shown no remorse or asked forgiveness?

There is no "should." There is only choice. You might choose, or you might choose to not do this thing you call "forgive." But either way, the choice is yours. Your decisions need not be affected by the choices of others. Similarly, they may choose to show remorse, and they may choose to ask for forgiveness. or they might not. It is not your place to decide for another if they "should" do these things, and it is not theirs to decide if you "should" forgive them.

ladyinwaiting
Do you forgive someone who has done you a terrible wrong,
even if they haven't asked for your forgiveness?

Again, it is your choice, not theirs. Nobody is entitled to decide for you the state of your own heart. Whether another asks for you to forgive them is irrelevant to whether you decide to do so.

Consider the example in the original post:

to the bedside of a dying nazi, who wanted the "forgiveness" of "a Jew".

The nazi wanted something from the jew. That's very interesting. What exactly was it he wanted? What is this "forgiveness" thing that we're talking about?

The nazi perceived himself as having harmed the jew. As a result, he chose to experience a sense of unworthiness. In the heart of the nazi, there existed a blockage.

Interestingly, what the nazi was really asking for was for the jew to take that energy blockage of the heart. Not remove it, but to take it. What would have happened had the jew done as the nazi asked? The jew would have lived out his life feeling hatred for having done so. The jew would have experienced that heart blockage himself. By refusing to "give forgiveness" he was simply declining to accept into himself the energy blockage of another.

forgiveness

We are all One. But sometimes in our relations with "one another" we experience blockages. "Hatred." Whether someone perceives harm delivered or received is irrelevant. If a woman is raped, she may experience "hatred" for her rapist. This is essentially an unwillingness to accept the rapist as part of the same "One" that she is. She experieces a blockage of the heart. But in the original example, it was the nazi who had harmed the jew who experienced the blockage of his own heart in the form of feelings of unworthiness to be part of the same whole as the jew.

Forgiveness is acceptance.

You may accept that a snake is venomous without allowing it to bite you.

"Forgiveness? Aren't we selfish to think that our forgiveness is something others want? Isn't forgiveness a selfish thing? Because forgiveness itself is for the forgiver. Forgiving the transgressions and trespasses of others is not for their benefit, it is for ours."

It could also plant in the mind of the transgressor the idea that he needs to be forgiven. She may never have even considered this. That's a start.

Forgiveness is easy even for the worst degree of action to me becaise i believe i understand something alot of people dont think about which is. When someone does anything i dont like i myself dislike the action itself rather then the person because the person who commited so and so was conditioned to this point, therefore its not his fault it never was. Also based on spiritual belief i know nothing is gone forever, all is taken care of.

reply to post by Astyanax


Interesting post. Thank you very much. Indeed, we have discussed the issues which you bring forth; what is forgiveness, who does it benefit, and how are those benefits manifested?

In referencing forgiveness as a social grace..yes, I agree, and this holds true for any minor infraction of a "social grace". My purpose here is to explore forgiveness on a more profound level. If one "forgives" out of social graces, this is largely "pretending", which can make things more difficult for the victim of the offense, in the long run. This is only a superficial act, and we wish to seek genuineness. "Pretend" forgiveness does work very nicely for the day to day minor offenses most of us encounter, and the offense is gradually put out of our minds as insignificant. If it were not ultimately insignificant, we could not let go of it so easily.

I made reference to a group of women, who have endured severe offenses, and who now have repercussions resulting from those offenses, including mental illness and personality disorder. Keep in mind, that although some disorder might be present, thier intelligence is intact, and they are cognizant of the meaning of forgiveness, and acutely aware of it's importance. In fact, some of their issues surround this very topic, and has contributed to their angst in many ways.

I am happy to see you have found a method which works for you. On one hand it seems like "distraction", which can be helpful, but on the other hand it sorta rings of "avoidance", which is typically not helpful for those who are trying to come to terms with past issues/demons.

You bring forth many good points, and I appreciate your contribution to this endeavor. I have learned a great deal from everyone's thoughts on this subject.

liw

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
In referencing forgiveness as a social grace... yes, I agree, and this holds true for any minor infraction of a "social grace".

No, this is not what I meant. The social aspect of forgiveness is no trivial thing. Perhaps my use of the word 'social' made you think I was referring to parlour behaviour. I was not. Did you skip over my example of 'the truth and reconciliation commission appointed in the aftermath of civil war?'

I meant 'society' in a biological sense: the sense of human beings as a social species like crows or chimpanzees.

My purpose here is to explore forgiveness on a more profound level.

There can be no more profound dimension to forgiveness - or to any mental activity - than the social one. Human beings are above all social animals. This 'internal' forgiveness you emphasize is a personal matter, a psychological need at best - though I would be more inclined to regard it as a self-indulgent luxury. At any rate, it is trivial compared to the social dimension.

This is only a superficial act, and we wish to seek genuineness.

The primary need is for life to go on. You don't need genuineness for that. You need doggedness, courage and a sense of decency about keeping your feelings to yourself.

*

I made reference to a group of women, who have endured severe offenses, and who now have repercussions resulting from those offenses, including mental illness and personality disorder.

Yes, this was made clear in your opening post.

Keep in mind, that although some disorder might be present, their intelligence is intact, and they are cognizant of the meaning of forgiveness, and acutely aware of it's importance.

The meaning of forgiveness is that you cease to speak or act against someone who has offended you, and treat them as though offence had not been given - though not necessarily as a friend. It is not a terribly complicated idea.

How genuinely forgiveness reflects the forgiver's real feelings is immaterial. People who cannot forgive, and torture themselves over it, are doubtless a lucrative source of income to the psychiatric profession; but I think the rest of us are squarely entitled to view them as idiots. It's a very simple matter: these women want to think of themselves as good people, but they can't because of all the hatred and hostility they feel towards the men who beat, raped or otherwise abused them. Their natural anger and impotence to indulge it gets them all choked up and twisted and uncomfy, poor things.

Well, tough luck. The fact is they aren't good people. There are no good or evil persons. There are only good and evil - I prefer to say right or wrong - acts. My message to these troubled souls is Get with the programme, ladies. Accept the truth: you hate the *%#@* who wronged you, you'd like to see him bleed to death following castration with a pair of blunt nail scissors. Accept, also, that it's never going to happen: you lost this one. Eat it and carry on. That's what real people do with their lives, not go bleating about the inner pain that comes from their inability to feel good about themselves.

I am happy to see you have found a method which works for you. On one hand it seems like "distraction", which can be helpful, but on the other hand it sorta rings of "avoidance", which is typically not helpful for those who are trying to come to terms with past issues/demons.

I take this just as it is intended: as an attempt to patronize me. But this kind of sub-Freudian pillow talk is just psychobabble, isn't it? Besides, unsolicited psychoanalysis is extremely bad manners>snip

reply to post by Astyanax


Social and society are two different things. Society is the environment in which we live. Social behavior is our response to that environment, and the people around us.

I do understand now how you were using the term "social". That was not clear to me in your first post. While above other species, human beings remain the premiere and dominant social group.

You said: "The meaning of forgiveness is that you cease to speak of the act against someone who has offended you and treat them as though they have been forgiven.

Reply: This is "parlor-behavior" at it's finest. A learned behavior, which is superficial and not genuine.

You said: "How genuine forgiveness reflects the real feelings is immaterial."

Reply: It is not immaterial. It is the very substance. Your suggestion to "eat it and carry on" can create inner turmoil, and prevent healing. This recommendation works fine for someone who spilled tea on you in the parlor. But not for the more profound, life changing offenses.

You said: "they are idiots".

Reply: You are obviously entitled to view anyone you wish as an idiot.
Go for it.

It was never my intention here to give examples of the type offenses committed, nor the stuggles the victims have endured.

But to bring clearly into focus what is being discussed here, I will briefly describe two:

1. At 18 months old a woman was brutally raped by her father. This essentially destroyed her internal organs, as you might imagine. Although now 31, she still wears a colostomy bag, and always will. The other "feminine" organs are now useless, or have been removed.

2. A age seven, a woman's mother poured a pot of hot boiling grease on her head. At 27, she has no hair, and has scarring to her face and shoulders.

And the fact is, they are good. They are good. They were assaulted by evil, (to use your philosophy). In both cases the offender was a biological parent, which adds a further layer of complication to the psychological/emotional trauma. You said forgiveness is not complicated?
I beg to differ.

Look at some of the other comments on this thread. Many of the responses were from people whose offenders were their parents. Most of them have come to terms with their issues, and put it behind them. It pleases me enormously to hear from them, and know this can be accomplished in a genuine way. And if it is not accomplished....then they have let go and moved on. That is the trick.

That is the mental gymnastic.

Oh yes. Now this: By no means and in no way do I wish to "fondle your genitals", either psychologically, emotionally, or otherwise. Don't flatter yourself. My thoughts here are about forgiveness. Not about you.

It was not my intention to be patronizing or condesending in my last post. I agree there may appear to be flashes of it here. But that's really not who I am. I prefer to think of the discourse here as a conflict of ideas.

Now, off to work.

reply to post by Astyanax


While I will not respond to your first few sentences/rebuttals, because they are easily refutable. I will just pick up in the middle area.

How genuinely forgiveness reflects the forgiver's real feelings is immaterial. People who cannot forgive, and torture themselves over it, are doubtless a lucrative source of income to the psychiatric profession; but I think the rest of us are squarely entitled to view them as idiots.

That is very egotisical. What does that even me? The rest of us are squarely entitled to view them as idiots. Who is the rest of us? I'm just curious.

It's a very simple matter: these women want to think of themselves as good people, but they can't because of all the hatred and hostility they feel towards the men who beat, raped or otherwise abused them. Their natural anger and impotence to indulge it gets them all choked up and twisted and uncomfy, poor things.

Simple matter? When was anything simple, the human mind is incredibily complex, therefore or thus the matter is extremely complex.

Well, tough luck. The fact is they aren't good people. There are no good or evil persons. There are only good and evil - I prefer to say right or wrong - acts. My message to these troubled souls is Get with the programme, ladies. Accept the truth: you hate the *%#@* who wronged you, you'd like to see him bleed to death following castration with a pair of blunt nail scissors. Accept, also, that it's never going to happen: you lost this one. Eat it and carry on. That's what real people do with their lives, not go bleating about the inner pain that comes from their inability to feel good about themselves.

There are no good or evil persons? Doubtful, you even contradicted yourself at least twice in your own paragrapgh. First you stated that their are no evil people, then you said their is only good and evil and then you said right or wrong acts. Did you see the contradictions? If their is only good or evil, then surely some people must be evil and surely some must be good. Then you brings acts into this equation and what does the world say? You are defined by your acts? So that means that if you do evil acts your an evil person. Unless you meant nature vs. nurture, which then again I would have to disagree with you on. By presenting the Son of Sam, Ted Bundy and a lot of others.

Accept the truth? What is the truth. Do you know the truth of the psychological processes of the mind? I doubt it, hence their is no truth, only theory. So your theory is that these women should suck it up and deal with it. You do realize that this leads to depression and very serious psychological issues. They are doing the right thing by seeking help with their problems.

And then you said this which almost made me break wind. That's what real people do with their lives lol, when was the last time you actually met a "real" person or for that matter a "normal" person. I doubt never because their is no such thing, just labels to distingush between the higher ups and the lowers, also used for comparissions which is also a bad thing.

But this kind of sub-Freudian pillow talk is just psychobabble, isn't it? Besides, unsolicited psychoanalysis is extremely bad manners>snip

reply to post by TheMythLives

And then you said this which almost made me break wind. That's what real people do with their lives lol, when was the last time you actually met a "real" person or for that matter a "normal" person. I doubt never because their is no such thing, just labels to distingush between the higher ups and the lowers, also used for comparissions which is also a bad thing.

would this not also apply to good and evil?

think about it - labels

are people what they do - ultimately?

is there a difference between forgiving a person and forgiving what they've done?

I think it's worth exploring what forgiveness really means

Everyone can become a differnt person when new information is absorbed. All of us our sponges in the mud puddle of society.

When that ability to absorb new information and change is realized who could there be left that it is impossible to forgive?

Have you ever walked through a door without making sure somone wasnt on the other side? Did you end up smaking them with the door? When it comes your time to be smacked you will know forgiveness.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

You said: "The meaning of forgiveness is that you cease to speak of the act against someone who has offended you and treat them as though they have been forgiven.

Reply: This is "parlor-behavior" at it's finest. A learned behavior, which is superficial and not genuine.

How is genuine forgiveness not genuine?

It would probably be safe to say that most of us have not suffered from the extremes of abuse that you’ve used as examples here. Those women suffered such heinous abuses that when we hear about them we all automatically recoil in horror – and continue on to hate on their behalf. Definitely not understand – let alone forgive.

I've forgiven some pretty big offenses – most of us have. Nothing that even compares to your stories, but – still. It wasn't "parlor-behavior". I didn’t do it to be polite, or to be accepted by an individual or group. I didn’t do it to smooth things over. I didn’t do it to make myself feel better (although, I unexpectedly did feel better). It makes absolutely no sense on the surface. It was not easy to do – and in fact – went against my most basic instincts. The same instincts that would make it more likely to resent and even hate those that have hurt us until the end of our days.

I forgave because I could actually feel the pain of needing forgiveness. Call it empathy, call it compassion – call it what you will – I understood the need – and I recognized my own humanity in the other person.

This is why forgiveness works when it’s asked for – we recognize our own weakness – we welcome back into the fold those that are standing outside – just as we would hope we ourselves might be welcomed back

but if no one asks for forgiveness? It’s an amazing thing – but, we can still forgive. Most of us are capable of recognizing ourselves – weak or strong – in others.

As I just mentioned one post earlier - I think there's been some sidestepping here around what forgiveness actually means.

We've been focusing instead - maybe - on how we think it might be useful - as a tool. Or whether or not it’s even possible to forgive. Or necessary.

Whether it's useful, possible or necessary - forgiveness is what it is

The meaning of forgiveness is that you cease to speak or act against someone who has offended you, and treat them as though offence had not been given

This is what it means to forgive - he's not wrong

It can only happen without judgment - which doesn't make the process any easier. When you forgive a person - you permit them to continue on in life as if they have not hurt you.

It’s what allows us to continue on and live together as a group.

Impossible - almost. But, it can happen - and it does.

It's not a social grace - it's a very difficult philosophical concept – it almost defies explanation.

Is your thread about whether or not it is divine to be able to forgive? I'm a little unclear, even after all the comments, as to what the main point is. To me the title suggests that you would have to be divine in order to be capable of true forgiveness.

Since humans are not divine – they shouldn’t be capable of forgiveness. But – we still forgive. How is this possible?

:-)

Forgiveness can’t be mandatory – that part is not possible. This is something that should also be obvious. If, somehow, it were to become obvious to any of the women you speak about here – they would be relieved of a great deal of pain.

The truth of the matter is – they’re waiting for permission to not forgive. They need to give themselves that permission. Maybe to you this sounds mean spirited – cold – cruel even. It is still the truth – they each need to come to an understanding in their own minds – only they can free themselves of the requirement to forgive.

They will always have their memories – no doubt. Not being allowed to NOT forgive is what’s hurting them the most right now – I believe this is the point you were trying to make all along – correct me if I’m wrong.

But, again - I'm not sure about what you're really suggesting. You feel for them - and their struggle to forgive their tormentors I can see. I also gather that you don't necessarily believe that they need to forgive.

If they can’t forgive – they can’t. It really is just that simple. I hope for their sakes each one of them figures this out on their own. No one else can do it for them. This is what almost no one will come out and say.

What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable.

Is true forgiveness conditional? Because – if we argue that it is conditional – then it seems to me we’ve determined that it’s never really possible – ever.

Sucks being human sometimes.

[edit on 7/11/2009 by Spiramirabilis]