Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

I think that true forgiveness can be easier to accomplish when we all try to see each other as spirit and not a physical entity. Once this large task is accomplished, we will find that the actions of the person become less important. We all use our 5 senses to perceive the world around us in a subject-object way for most if not all of our lives. When you put everyone on an equal plane, it then becomes easier to see that there is still equality there regardless of what that person has done.

Forgiving yourself is tantamount. This should be step 2. I have slowly been ridding myself of guilt and any negativity for the past two years now, and I'm nowhere near being done. There can still be emotions, memories that will tie your willingness to succumb to the ego time and time again. The ego is the enemy of forgiveness. It will roll and thrash about if faced with what it sees as threatening (i.e. forgiveness).

When you forgive yourself, I believe you do in turn forgive others. We are all here on this plane for a reason...(insert any karmic lesson here). Our job when we are here is to stop the cycle of rebirth into this world. When we finally see the spirit and not the body, we will be closer than ever to spending eternity in paradise and not return here for another go-around.

In closing, forgiveness may not be divine or easy, but ultimately it is the hardest lesson to learn on a planet full of fear-based, egoic thoughts and actions.

If reincarnation is indeed, the TRUTH, then every sinister, violating act against us is an opportunity to advance spiritually. The bigger and more heinous the offense, the more powerful our act of forgiveness becomes, and the more actual gratitude we can have for the opportunity.

But its hard to see things this way. Very, very hard. We are after all, still in the human form and contain all the complexities and emotions that accompany that.

I'm not really disagreeing with you. Others on this thread share your thoughts about this, and it certainly has merit, and is in keeping with an ideal well worth aspiring to. I'm just saying.....it's hard.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Yes, the wonderful question of Reincarnation and to me nearly all the religions support this, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, and many others. But it could very well be a spiritual advance in the collective consciounceness, or a spritual increase in individuality. Whichever one believes is cool, but thats defiantley fun to think about. Since nearly all religions support it, does that mean its possible? And what about children who remember their past lives? Odd indeed.

I think forgiveness is just something that takes time. It has a half-life of sorts, like a radioactive substance.

Accidents are of course the easiest things to forgive. In some cases, they don't even require forgiveness because they were totally not the other person's fault.

To forgive rape, or the murder of a loved one, would probably take decades for most people. They may not even live long enough to forgive, but I think if people lived 500 years, most would eventually find it in them to forgive even the worst things.

I think forgiveness is always divine, but tbh, I blame the church those women belonged to as much or even more than the people who abused them. I mean, saying they're gonna go to Hell because they can't forgive? Of course they're gonna freaking be ashamed. As an ex-Catholic I felt that fear of damnation too, though not about anything like molestation.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


I liked what you said about most people would be abe to forgive if they had more time (in their lives). This to may have to do with the additional time placing "the event" further behind them, as well having incorporated it into their lives as another life experience.

This is not to say they would not have genuinely forgiven, but rather took a different route.

Wow, I totally missed this thread, it must have occurred when I was off doing other things and not on ATS!

S and F!!

What a wonderful thought provoking, deep thread!

Forgiveness? Wow - the funny thing about that is, we sometimes think we have forgiven a person. After many years go by and the certain issue with a person doesn't happen anymore and you feel you are over it and don't harbor any anger etc. anymore for that person. So, you feel there has been forgiveness and your life is better.

Than one day, something happens and a similar event happens with another person. Next thing you know, all those feelings, anger etc. come back in full force and hit you hard. Those things you thought you were over and didn't have anymore pain from. That is when it boils back to the surface and it seems forgiveness just flew out the window as it all comes crashing back down into your psychie.

Sure, I feel as if I have forgiven people in the past, yet there are times some trigger happens and I realize it is all still right there, but below the surface.

So, have I really forgiven - if I can have a strong reaction to another event that triggers feelings from past ones?

Also, having no feelings for something anymore - is that really forgiveness?

What a good deep subject, that makes people look deep inside.

It has me thinking now - have I actually forgiven people or have just repressed the feelings/pain and anger?

Hi. I was googling forgiveness, and was led here. I wanted to tell you how much I related to what everyone here had to say. I have had life long issues with forgiveness very similar to many other people on this thread.

I just wanted to say that reading all this has helped me a lot. I felt bad about reading all this and not letting you know how I appreicated it.

I can't u2u yet. I hope you don't mind that I posted here.
Thanks ladyinwaiting.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting



Kharma: Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

Forgiveness of other-self is forgiveness of self. An understanding of this insists upon full forgiveness upon the conscious level of self and other-self, for they are one. A full forgiveness is thus impossible without the inclusion of self.

Therefor, by forgiving yourself and somebody else or vise-versa you stop the inertia like property of kharma.


By forgiving yourself and/or another self you sub conciously stop future balancing of kharmatic debts and so on.



If humanity learned to forgive and love eachother as they would themselves than there would not be the violence that we see today.

Although this subject may cause anger or innapropriate verbal abuse a good example of this concept would be "911".

The world trade centers get pulverized, instead of pure forgiveness we go into Iraq, and the kharma continues onwards spiraling into an ever more dangerous terroritory of hate and violence. If whoever destroyed the world trade centers forgave America for whatever may have you that we did than the kharmatic situation would not have led America on a war path. Although many would say that 911 was staged and so on, but this is a keen example of the concept of forgiveness.

The key to enlightenment is to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love.


Namaste



[edit on 29-12-2009 by Psychonaughty]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


All i know is i will never forgive for what was done to me. I do not do anything to anyone, and amazingly i am the victim, and have to pay for not forgiving murderers, for what they did to my life.

Amazing your the victim, and the authorities murder the victim, and protect and kill for the perpetrator of crimes.

reply to post by angeldoll


Hi there! You are welcome, and I'm glad it helped. I have u2u'd you some links to some information which further explores this topic. I know you cannot reply, but that's okay!

Forgiveness is a journey many of us must take. It's not always a pleasant one, but often worthwhile. Set your goal as what you wish to accomplish at the end. Strive to reach it. You might learn many things about life and yourself along the way. My best to you.

reply to post by andy1033


Andy, for whatever happened to you I am so sorry. It must have been something very cruel. If you read the thread in it's entirety, you will see that many others, also, have not forgiven. I haven't reread the thread, but I think we eventually decided it's not essentially necessary to completely forgive. Sounds like you still have a great deal of anger, too, tied to the "event". I remember discussing that some things can be so severe, so heinous, it can take a lifetime (or beyond)...to work through it.

What matters now is that you don't let the anger consume you. That way, you do continue to be re-victimized by your own anger. You have to reach a place where you can be content with who you are now, you know? Past victim, included, knowing that you are what you are now despite what happened to you. Can you admire your own strength?

But you can't beat yourself up for not forgiving, if you are not ready for this. Additionally, most agree, including the Bible, that the person (the offender) should ask for forgiveness. If he/she/they have not, then don't worry about it. Just don't let the lack of it (forgiving) beat you up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psychonaughty: I appreciate your words on karma, and they do make so much sense. If only.........

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


i personally think as long as you control your hatred and anger, than hating is good for you. I have always been a passive person and would not harm anyone no matter what they did to me, so this helps me with what they did.

they did everything under the sun to destroy my life, and get me to do something, but it never worked for them. For some reason they cannot understand there are passive people on planet earth. I think the people who like to destroy people, cannot stand when there plans go wrong, and they cannot get you to do something wrong.

i live by one motto, let the world have every piece of sh1t it has, if it wants that. the people that want to destroy anything good in the world, think they are so great, than let them have the world they want. They are the ones who have made this world the way it is. Its not people like me, that have made the world like this, it people like the ones who destroyed my life.

then you will hear the very same people moan about how the world is this and that, when they are the ones who make it this way.

If people choose to destroy people like me, then i see the world only wants absolute sh1t as humans, and i always think let it have it.

Its something i learned very early in life, to never do anything to anyone, and to let the world have its sh1t. It feeds itself, and the monsters love the way they control and destroy, so i say let them have it that way.

It must piss of the people that destroyed my life so much, that people will never do anything wrong, like the scum they are.

There really is people, that just want to wreck and destroy peoples life for no reason.

Plus on karma, i do not believe in it. If karma existed why does obama like blowing up weddings, and bush love torturing people. It does not exist.

Remember people, do not do anything to the people destroying your life, let teh world have its sh1t.

[edit on 12/29/2009 by andy1033]

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by ladyinwaiting

 

Remember people, do not do anything to the people destroying your life, let teh world have its sh1t.

Ahh, but I must disagree on this point. If someone were destroying my life I would do everything in my power to stop them. It is foolish to do otherwise, don't you think?

I get the impression that some of this is still going on? Am I right?

Do you believe in self-determination? Self-defense? Asking for help when something is too big to handle on your own? I do.

Have you told your story on ATS, maybe on another thread you could link me to, so I could know what has happened or is happening to you?

Or...would you consider telling your story here, as others have done?

I find forgiveness difficult. I'm a 40 year old man. I was raped when I was 8, by a 12-year old boy who lived down the hall. I was scared to tell all of what happened, so no one believed me about what I DID tell. no therapy. now I didn't turn into an abuser myself, I'm not gay or confused etc..this thing just happened..and the effect has been that I can't have good relationships, I'm horrible at conflict resolution, and, to be brutally honest, I'm a bit of a doormat. I have my moments, but I consistently have to break twice as bad to put someone back in line because I don't assert myself at the right moments. I tie all of this back to the rape, and I will never forgive the rapist, even though he himself was only 12 at the time.

I think the thing is, nowadays, is that nobody cares what they do to other people. How many real, sincere apologies has anyone gotten lately? most people now will never admit to doing anything wrong, no matter how wrong they are. I'm the kind of person that, if you can apologize(and If I'm wrong, I do man up and apologize), then I can at least start to forgive. but if you won't admit it, I can't deal and I cut that person off. forever.

reply to post by truthnotlies


Hi! I have sent you a u2u which you may access by clicking on the red "U2U" button at the top of the page.

reply to post by truthnotlies


Thank you for posting. When a male is sexually assaulted there is a different "layer" of complication involved. It is never too late to go and talk to someone. It really does help in bringing closure, and understanding what happened, and why things played out the way they did.

You may also google "male sexual assault, or male rape, or childhood sexual assault", and be led to some adult support groups of adults (males) who were molested as children. You don't have to "talk" if you don't want to. But reading the experiences of others and how they coped might be helpful.

I will tell you there are generally more issues involved than just the act of assault itself. Such as, how your family responds to you, the ways you develop to cope....as an 8 year old, which sometimes never go away, until you deliberately recognize them for what they are, and change them. Eight year olds don't always come up with the most successful/healthy coping strategies! Surprise! Sometimes it requires having someone to walk you through the process.

But, I'm glad you posted. Good luck to you.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by truthnotlies

 

Thank you for posting. When a male is sexually assaulted there is a different "layer" of complication involved. It is never too late to go and talk to someone. It really does help in bringing closure, and understanding what happened, and why things played out the way they did.

You may also google "male sexual assault, or male rape, or childhood sexual assault", and be led to some adult support groups of adults (males) who were molested as children. You don't have to "talk" if you don't want to. But reading the experiences of others and how they coped might be helpful.

I will tell you there are generally more issues involved than just the act of assault itself. Such as, how your family responds to you, the ways you develop to cope....as an 8 year old, which sometimes never go away, until you deliberately recognize them for what they are, and change them. Eight year olds don't always come up with the most successful/healthy coping strategies! Surprise! Sometimes it requires having someone to walk you through the process.

But, I'm glad you posted. Good luck to you.

Thanks. thanks for the PM too.

Thank you for this thread, OP. It's a topic too close to my heart, and one that I struggle with often. If I may ask, how does one forgive a person who is dead who can neither no longer apologize nor ask for forgiveness? How can we get past unresolved issues when the parties are separated by the veil of death? I appreciate any advice anyone has to offer.

My little brother passed away three years ago. He was in the passenger seat riding with a friend who was drunk. No seat belt, truck flipped, he was ejected. The driver was in shock, ran back to the house about a mile away, and didn't call the police/ambulance for a solid hour. My brother might have made it, had he called authorities from the get go. He was left in a field, and died that night.

I forgave this man. The rest of my family can't stand him, but I forgave him. I don't know how to explain it, but I imagined such a thing happening to me. I imagined the possible state of shock and how this would entirely throw off most peoples reasoning skills. Basic survival instincts and adrenaline would be rushing in. I looked into his eyes the day of the funeral, he said, "I'm so sorry" sobbing very hardly. I replied, "There is no blame". Kid was 18, out in the country, had a few beers & made a mistake which he will regret for the rest of his life. He will suffer enough without me judging him.

So there's that story. I have one more. There is someone that I haven't been able to forgive. I've accepted that I will never forgive this girl, and will live with this pain for the rest of my life. Mrs. Miranda, the sociopath.

Mandi and I use to hang out a bit when we were in high school. We were black sheep. Got into a lot of trouble. I wisened up, and she got worse. We went our separate ways. My brother passed in 2006. I reacquainted myself with Mandi in late 2007. Still somewhat traumatized, but getting by. She said she got off the junk, and wanted to hang around good, clean people. We started chillin almost daily.

The drama started one day when I realized that Mandi had just said something which made no sense. I called her out, and she said something else which contradicted her first statement. I called her out again, and again she made up a lie in an attempt to cover the first two! I flipped. It was like a nuclear bomb went off in my head at that moment.

Background: We were good friends, okay! At least I thought so. We told each other things, that we'd never tell anyone else. So, when I found out she was a pathological liar, my world exploded. I wondered what, if anything she ever told me was true. I felt like I'd just been decked in the face repeatedly. I didn't know who this girl was anymore, and that scared me to death.

I tried over and over to get her to reason. I explained, "friendship is based on trust and respect, how can you expect me to trust or respect you when you are continuously lying to me?" She wouldn't listen. I went literally insane. Attempting to teach her, again and again. She pushed me away. After being ignored for about a dozen times, I started to become verbally abusive to her. I rationalized that I was coming down to her level of reasoning, in an attempt to teach her one last time. That if she didn't treat me decently, I would not do the same of her.

She ditched. Last thing she said was, "I knew it, you are the liar. Leave me alone". Which I totally flipped over, as I do my best never to lie. She just projected her own wrongdoings onto me and left without ever thinking twice. She told all our mutual friends that I went crazy for no good reason. Of course, she omitted the parts about her lying. It was really bad. I became a very dark, cold person towards people. I began to see just how morally corrupt the average person had become.

I still have anger in my heart towards her. I helped this girl numerous times, often to my detriment. I would have done just about anything for her, but never will I accept a liar as a friend. Honesty is one of my core values that I won't sway from. She has scarred me more than this man who killed my little brother. How messed up is that?! In a way, it was for the best. I learned not to be so gullible. I researched sociopathy to the Nth degree, and now know red-flags and make sure not to associate with scum like that.

In conclusion, sometimes the pain is there for a reason. Suffering is a means to learn if channeled correctly. I will never forgive her, or forget her, but I will accept that we both acted foolishly. I will never make those mistakes again.

I've had rather a lot to forgive, in my life.
- non stop abuse as a child, parents who tried to kill me, a mother who tried to poison me and my sons, a husband who left one of our sons intellectually handicapped and vision impaired from shaking and who broke a metal high chair over me trying to kill our 3 day old baby to stop my mother seeing him before his mother did ... and that's just a small part of it.

I hope karma is not true because I must have been some bastard to have earned all this in previous lives. However I wouldn't discount the possibility.

Now, looking back on this in my fifties, probably dying of congestive heart disorder which I suspect my mother contributed to by spraying a box of tempting peaches with Baygon before giving them to us, (Baygon confirmed, but I couldn't prove she did it,) and trying to stay alive because my kids still need me, I've thought a lot about forgiveness.

I'm grounded by a knowledge of God. Not faith, I don't believe in believing, for me it's facts or nothing. But God has proved himself to me. Not as someone who will make life easy for me, obviously, but as someone who is always beside me with a hand ready to hold my own. And I know that God loves the people who have done evil to me just as much as he loves me. The difference is that he understands exactly what has made these people into what they are, and I don't.

So the trick is in understanding. To do this I got to know my mother and found out about her past. It turns out she was sexually abused as a child by her older brothers, and escaped that abuse by poisoning one and setting the others against each other, leading to 2 of them killing the fourth one.

I believe the killing damaged her even more than the abuse, leading to a self hatred which she projected onto her only daughter. I too had 4 older brothers, and she taught them to abuse me as she had been abused, and then delighted in sadistic, perverted "punishments" while telling me how dirty, evil and hated I was.

Because God was a friend to me, my alone time was happy, as we played and made up songs and poems together. And when I could escape into the forest the huge, ancient eucalypts comforted me, and I saw them as my real family. So I had support which enabled the split personalities I'd developed to keep functioning without anger and hatred taking over.

My mother, as a child, never had that. Like me, she was an Aspie, (had Asperger's,) and was made fun of for things like watering the floral carpet when told to water all the flowers in the parlour. (Aspies take things very literally.) She became terrified of doing stupid things or having people realise she was being abused at home. So she was always pretending, hating herself and trying to wear a socially acceptable mask.

That hatred was bound to come out somehow.

In the long run the people who abused me are more to be pitied than I am. God loves us all, but how can we accept that love if we are living a lie, hiding the loathsome things we have done and turning away from heaven when we one day are called there, because we can't bear the transparency? There are no masks in heaven.

An abused child can turn to God for comfort. But who can the abuser turn to?

The reason it is so hard to not hate is that ill-treatment makes you hate yourself. Then one projects the self-hatred back onto the perp, hating them. But their ill-treatment of you possibly came from their own projected self-hatred, so you are only continuing a cycle.

So, although the victim may be completely innocent, this victim needs to forgive themself first. A survivor who was an abused child needs to forgive themself for being helpless, trusting, for not understanding what was going on, for being defiled like that, and for the long term mental, psychological, emotional and physical results of that abuse. Because, illogical as it sounds, self hatred for these things is one of the worst burdens a child abuse survivor has to bear. And until you have forgiven yourself for all this you are not free to forgive anyone else.

It helps to cry, and one might need to cry for years.

But a time can come when one sees it was not their own fault, and can start working to understand the perp(s), and can ask for help to see them from God's point of view. Some of us believe Jesus saw himself as a shepherd, sent to find the lost sheep and bring them back home. We may be lost sheep ourselves, but so are those who have harmed us.
Some of us know the bible story in which the fatted calf was killed, not for the good son who stayed home, but for the bad son who left and then returned. Some of us know the Buddhist tradition in which Buddha, despite having attained nirvana, comes back to Earth to help the lost souls here and will continue to do so until we have all attained nirvana.

If religion is man made, then the fact that so much of it is about forgiveness show the need for forgiveness has been a problem for mankind over millenniums.

We are all pure spirits who have fallen into the sewer, and walk around with the stink of various layers of poop on us. And all # stinks, however little we've accumulated. But it's not an insurmountable problem. Because somehow I've got the idea that God prefers a truly repentant sinner to a perfect man who is proud of his perfection.



To sum up, just remember when you look at those who have abused you, 'there, but for the grace of God, go I'. And one day the realisation will come that, 'there goes I'. We are all one, and we have all done harm.