It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

page: 9
48
<< 6  7  8    10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:49 AM
link   
@unityemissions: That's horrible to have to go through. regarding your friend: I've had a similar situation. no drugs, but, had a friend who, basically had been casting major aspersions, shall we say about me. all untrue. when confronted, he blamed me for everything, told people that he was afraid I was going to hurt someone/go postal etc..you see, the situation here was racially charged. I'm black. this guy is jewish. I work in the entertainment industry. I 'm not doing the "jews run the business" routine, what I'm saying is, this industry is very "inside baseball", and black folks, with some notable exceptions, are not on the inside. for a time, I was. that ended with this conflict with this guy, and our circle of (for me, former) friends. Once you got people saying the things he was saying about me, with this circle(wrongly) backing him up, well, I became a pariah pretty quickly. People don't know, or don't care, about the damage they do when they lie about others. That's why I'm hypersensitive to liars around me. This guy, I don't forgive; and he's too arrogant to ever admit/apologize.

Hell, I walked away, just recently, from being in/being a producer on a film because the writer/director put me in a situation where, I was told by him he had "X" amount of financing, had me going to major people representing his film as being on a certain level, and it turned out he had no money at all, except on paper. he lied to me to get me to lie to others, which, frankly is par for the course in this town, but, I walked. I felt he tricked me into using my personal credibility to reach people he couldn't, to get his stuff done. I forgive him, because he's a decent guy overall; but I WILL NOT TOLERATE LIARS AROUND ME. Id rather stand alone than be around the wrong people. Lonely road, but it's the one I suppose I must travel..

[edit on 3-1-2010 by truthnotlies]




posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 10:11 PM
link   
reply to post by gazerstar
 


Hello gazerstar. I apologize for not posting sooner. You present a concern that many others share, as well. How do you come to terms with these unresolved issues, when your offender is no longer living?

Keep in mind that if the person was still living, chances are he would not come to you and ask for forgiveness. It's always possible of course, but if you read the thread you see that it is unlikely. Many of these people go to their graves without ever acknowledging they hurt someone, in whatever way it might have been.

So, you handle the issue the same way every one else does. You deal with it within yourself.

I worked with a lady whose father had been brutal to her. He met a very violent death (was decaptitated in a train accident). But his death led her to many years of unresolved issues. She always thought she hated him, but at age 40 she decided she wanted to find a way to not hate him, and to forgive him. By that time he had been dead for many years.

I don't think it is any more difficult to work through the issues when the person is deceased. It does bring an additional layer of complication, but the issues remain the same. Anger, betrayal, guilt, sadness, hatred, resentment, feelings of unworthiness and inferiority, all the things that one might feel. The outrage of not being protected. Not being helped.

Still the same.

Sometimes it helps to talk to the deceased person. Tell them how what they did made you feel, and how it affected you then, and how it still haunts and hurts you now.

I've had people even write letters to the person (both living and not living, and so you will know the letter to the living person was not mailed). But this lady, this 40 year old, actually took her letter to the gravesite and read it to him. She told him how much he had hurt her, but now she had to let it go. While she was talking to him she told him she'd never been able to forgive him for what he did to her and her sisters. But that she was going to try. She was able to bury the letter near his grave. Others burn them. One lady tied her letter to a balloon, and released it.

It did give her a sense of closure, and her flashbacks and nightmares decreased significantly afterwards.

I will walk you through this if you need me. Anything I can do, I will.
You can u2u me if you would like.

There are so many stories on this thread. If you haven't then do read how others have dealt with these issues. I think it will help.

Kalissa: is a goldmine of information. She has been through so much, and has dealt with everything that has been thrown her way.

We talk now, on ATS about "riding a wave, instead of letting it drown you".
This is ATS member kalissa.

Kalissa, again, thank you so much for sharing your many pearls with us.
I have admired you since the first time I read one of your posts. If you happen to see this, and can add more, I would invite you to do so.

My best to you both. I have not been the "host" I would have liked to have been on this thread. But my heart, I think, is in the right place.

I am here, and if you think I can help, I will.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 10:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by Mr. Toodles
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 

This is actually a VERY complex psychological issue that the bible can't even touch on.


You say, because.........?

From Matthew 18:
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 11:18 PM
link   
reply to post by pumpkinorange
 


So now we see it is easy for you. You know what to do, how to feel, and how to behave. You see, it's not that easy for everyone.

If you read the thread, then you see, indeed, how complicated this issue is for many people. I imagine most of them have read the Bible, and I appreciate your posting this here, and I also posted some of it.

But when human emotions are involved, it's not always so easy. If you have found a way, good. Sincerely, good for you.

But, yes. It's complicated. I would like you, if you would, to tell us how it feels to forgive someone. How do you know? Are you referring to the "external" forgiveness? As in, you say you forgive, you tell the person and others you forgive. For all purposes, it appears as though you have.

But how do you feel on the inside?



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 11:34 PM
link   
Perhaps the problem is the common conflation of "forgiving" and "excusing". One might find the other in the formulation of each others definitions but there is a subtle shade of difference in meaning that I see.

To excuse is to let the person of the hook, to absolve them of consequence or debt for their actions. To forgive is to toss the burden off one's own shoulders in order to free one's self from a vicious circle of self-punishment. So long as one does not forgive, one is still attached, fettered and controlled by those that have transgressed, even if those individuals are but memories.

Gee whiz, I hope that made some sense!



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 01:34 PM
link   
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


It absolutely makes sense, and is a good contribution.

You can "excuse" without forgiving.

You can forgive, without excusing.

Yes?



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 01:42 PM
link   
reply to post by unityemissions
 


There would be so much anger and frustration to get through, when your brother was the victim of such selfish negligence. Which is what it was. The guy might have panicked....but it did not serve your brother well. It resulted in him losing his life. That's very hard to swallow.
Anybody would have a hard, hard time with forgiving this event. It hasn't been that long ago. This one might take a while. If you were close to your brother, I would assume grief/bereavement issues are still tender.

The break-up with your friend causes additional stress. Salt in a wound.

You must be selfish yourself now. Take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Nurture and love yourself. You've been through a lot these past couple of years. Go easy on yourself.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


It absolutely makes sense, and is a good contribution.


Thank you. You had me thinking for awhile. Some personal events made me replect upon your thread (which I had no good reply for until now) and made me think really hard about the issue and the confusion. It seems some may interpret forgiveness as effectively letting someone get away with murder. That really didn't seem to be the intent.


You can "excuse" without forgiving.


I suppose when and when not to excuse shouldn't be decided in haste. To excuse something atrocious could lead to more people suffering. The abused women may have excused abusive behavior time and time again, perpetuating their own suffering and leaving open the possibility that someone else down the line will also be victimized. Their own guilt and trauma could be multiplied manyfold for allowing it to continue and perhaps more if they hear about something the abuser did later when the victim could have stopped it before it went further.


You can forgive, without excusing.


Certainly. You brought up the holocaust in the OP. Perhaps the victims should forgive for their own wellbeing but excusing atrocity would be inexcusable. In this case, not forgiving could lead to vengenance and to condemn others that may not have supported or may have even helped fight against it in some way, perpetuating injustice. Judgement is clouded.

Without forgiveness, holocaust victims might hate all Germans; abused women may blame all men. I wonder if any lesson can truely be completed without forgiveness since without it one is still somewhat in the midst of the events.

It is divine to oppose the cycle of conflict and suffering. Forgiveness serves to interrupt it. To oppose that is to harbor darkness where it may wait patiently to find an outlet once again.


Yes?


Si, si, si. We can do both or neither as well.

Still making sense here? Have I fallen off the wagon?



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 03:42 PM
link   
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


Hi EnlightenUp. You make sense to me most of the time.
When you don't, I generally attribute it to my not following you well.

I had a friend, not a *patient*, but an actual friend who was raped by a stranger at knifepoint. Later that evening she identified him in a line up.
He had porn in his back pocket, and had been released from a Mississippi prison two weeks earlier, where he had been incarcerated for rape for the previous two years.

At the trial when they gave her the opportunity to address him, she told him:

"you raped me at knifepoint in my own car. I am not going to let this ruin my life. You are a sick person, and I will forgive you. But I cannot excuse this. I know in my heart if you walk away from here, you will rape again, and I can't permit that. So I have done everything in my power to get you back in prison".

Thoughts of this event stemmed from the "excuse/forgive idea. I thought what she said to him was great, and she meant it.

I quoted Billy Graham somewhere along the line here. He said even though one might forgive, the offender must nonetheless face the consequences of and be held accountable for his actions. Which I agree with.

And as for the holocaust, and slavery, and murder, the really big issues, I do tend to agree forgiveness can take generations, but must never be excused.

Think about it. Someday people will look back on the nazi's, and the slave traders and think "it's okay now. We can let it go". But never will they think "what you did was okay".

Look how long it's been and it still hasn't happened. I bet it takes another 100 years.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:10 PM
link   
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 




Forgiveness is (not always) Divine


Briefly, I think this is an exercise in humanity and to rise above ourselves.

Forgiveness is always harder than revenge or retribution because forgiveness offers no self-gratifying, co-pain-inflicting experience.

As humans , we know it feels good to get even... where as forgiving often leaves us with nothing but knowing we did the right thing.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 





forgiveness offers no self-gratifying, co-pain-inflicting experience.




Are you sure about that?

....and last but by no means least: ROLL TIDE!



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 



forgiveness offers no self-gratifying, co-pain-inflicting experience.




Are you sure about that?

....and last but by no means least: ROLL TIDE!


Sorry.. UGA fan here.

Not everyone in Alabama weds their sister, brews shine or follows the Tide.

But since you do seem inclined to stereotypes... I do have a poodle and two parakeets


Please forgive me



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:30 PM
link   
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Interesting story. Kudos to her for acting to the best of her ability to keep others out harm's way.

But one thing: please ask me to clarify and/or express your objections! You mustn't place yourself at fault if something I said doesn't quite make sense. By my butting-in, stating whatever it is I stated, the burden is on me. I could be incorrect, forming a seemingly unconnected series of dots which should be properly explicated, or even expressing something I'm not quite sure of but the preponderance of evidence (explicit or through an acquired feel) I have accumulated favors it. I may still hold my position for the sake of argument, until you convince me it is untenable (which may appear as stubbornness but really I would be systematically exhausting the viability of an hypothesis).

Now that I went and typed all that, I now realize you did ask for clarification in your previous reply.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:03 PM
link   
Forgiveness personally, as in forgiving those who have harmed family and loved ones, is hard in the current, for many years following an event. I'm not sure everyone is expected to be superhuman and do things all at once, but we need to do things in stages, that honor our feelings and honor and respect everyones feelings. But....

These two are wonderful videos to watch.


Dr Hew Len 1 of 9, ho'oponopono



Jessica Mystic : 2012 Part 3 1/7 How To Be Free From The Illuminati

Briefly. We need to see the light in everyone and everything. This is a fractal hollogram multiverse/omniverse and we are the family of light. We are playing a game, sort like a duality, white hats, dark hats, and learning lessons, some on negative pathways, some on positive pathways, and yet they're all roles.

Behind the veil we are all the family of light. We need to graduate with unity.

Another way of looking at the galaxy and earth is the galaxy wasnt getting along so some of the races that are engaged in disagreements, long standing and star wars, long standing, are all here in human form, perhaps on other planets too, where we can learn to get along.

Mainly, the idea is that we should seek to release all data that prevents us from seeing anyone or anything as less than whole and perfect with the Creator's inpriration or enlightenment and guidance. We are too talk to each other's soul and remind each other, hey this is just a role, we're playing it too well. Now lets play the wake up game and remember, and see the light in each other and recognize each other instead.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:13 PM
link   
reply to post by redoubt
 


What must it be like to have the wisdom to judge someone's characteristics including their being prone to sterotype people based on two words! Whoo! I'm not young enough to be able to do that. lol.

Actually, I'll admit I'm the Bama fan. Didn't mean to offend your higher football senses.


But back to the topic:

Are you sure there is nothing self-serving or self-gratifying about forgiveness? I'd really like your thoughts on that.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Interesting story. Kudos to her for acting to the best of her ability to keep others out harm's way.

But one thing: please ask me to clarify and/or express your objections! You mustn't place yourself at fault if something I said doesn't quite make sense. By my butting-in, stating whatever it is I stated, the burden is on me. I could be incorrect, forming a seemingly unconnected series of dots which should be properly explicated, or even expressing something I'm not quite sure of but the preponderance of evidence (explicit or through an acquired feel) I have accumulated favors it. I may still hold my position for the sake of argument, until you convince me it is untenable (which may appear as stubbornness but really I would be systematically exhausting the viability of an hypothesis).

Now that I went and typed all that, I now realize you did ask for clarification in your previous reply.


....and you, my friend, have your response via u2u.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:01 PM
link   
reply to post by Unity_99
 


Hi Unity_99. Thank you for posting the vids. I have seen Jessica before, but I did watch Dr. Hew Len's interview and liked it very much.

"The data is running you". It's like carrying all our old baggage, only in a more profound way.
When we are stuck in the old data, we have died.
When we get rid of the old data, we are free.

But I wondered about...when he comments that we are creating our experiences, do you think he is ruling out the possibility of true victimization?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by redoubt
 


What must it be like to have the wisdom to judge someone's characteristics including their being prone to sterotype people based on two words! Whoo! I'm not young enough to be able to do that. lol.

Actually, I'll admit I'm the Bama fan. Didn't mean to offend your higher football senses.


But back to the topic:

Are you sure there is nothing self-serving or self-gratifying about forgiveness? I'd really like your thoughts on that.


Oh, I suppose that some degree of mercy may have its roots in the human ego. You know, I forgive thee because I am a better person? But I really don't think that represents the majority of the species nor of the instance of forgiveness.

It is, after all, a purely individual choice. There are no man-made laws that demand one do this kind of thing. If we do forgive, it is OUR choice.

It wasn't my intention to frame the stereotyping remark... it's just that living in the south, one does tend to run into the regional bigotry quite often. And being no saint myself, I tend to pay out as much rope as needed for a self hanging lol.

it is... none of it, perfect. I am not above needing forgiveness on occasion, both from others and myself.

To err is entirely human



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 06:26 PM
link   
reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


The really difficult part, which is why its not necessarily possible to do this too close to trauma, and we really need to be very gentle with our feelings, is that we are mirroring out this world. In practical terms, is everything 100% a mirror, or is there a collective mirror that catches many in a net?

Did we agree to every moment before coming?

Even if so, does that give anyone else the right to lack compassion or is it a part of all of our lessons to feel for each other and overcome this lack of unity and love? I believe so!

There are many questions and these are the ones we must take into meditation and seek answers for. I ask them myself.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Unity_99]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 03:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by redoubt

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by redoubt
 


What must it be like to have the wisdom to judge someone's characteristics including their being prone to sterotype people based on two words! Whoo! I'm not young enough to be able to do that. lol.

Actually, I'll admit I'm the Bama fan. Didn't mean to offend your higher football senses.


But back to the topic:

Are you sure there is nothing self-serving or self-gratifying about forgiveness? I'd really like your thoughts on that.


Oh, I suppose that some degree of mercy may have its roots in the human ego. You know, I forgive thee because I am a better person? But I really don't think that represents the majority of the species nor of the instance of forgiveness.

It is, after all, a purely individual choice. There are no man-made laws that demand one do this kind of thing. If we do forgive, it is OUR choice.

It wasn't my intention to frame the stereotyping remark... it's just that living in the south, one does tend to run into the regional bigotry quite often. And being no saint myself, I tend to pay out as much rope as needed for a self hanging lol.

it is... none of it, perfect. I am not above needing forgiveness on occasion, both from others and myself.

To err is entirely human




Karma is that which may be called inertia. Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

Forgiveness is the eradicator of karma. Balanced forgiveness for the full eradication of karma would require forgiveness not only of other-selves but also the forgiveness of self.

An understanding of this insists upon full forgiveness upon the conscious level of self and other-self, for they are both one.

Several if not the mass majority of people will say that they cannot forgive another self or selves for certain past events that have caused hurt feelings. This statement is but a microism of the planetary macroism in relation to war and destruction on it's sphere.

In the grand picture there is no right or wrong there only is. That 'is' means love... Unconditional love, for all entities/situations/feelings/emotions or whatever may have you within or of existence.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Psychonaughty]



new topics

top topics



 
48
<< 6  7  8    10 >>

log in

join