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Forgiveness is (not always) Divine

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posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


The intention here is to explore other's thoughts, philosphies, and practices, about forgiveness. I have welcomed and been curious about how others deal with this issue. I was pleased to see that other's had had dilemma's with it in their lives also, which many of them graciously shared.

I initially referred to the women's group to explain the manner in which I was prompted to contemplate the subject matter.

When another poster made the assumptive and presumptuous claim that these women were "idiots", and "they are not good", I felt compelled
to speak up on their behalf.

It is appalling to me that someone could come here on what I consider to be an exploratory thread, and make sweeping generalizations about persons they do know not, and whose circumtances they will never fully realize.

You did remark about what you thought was the "point I was trying to make", being that the women are suffering because they cannot forgive.
Yes. This was made in clear in the introductory post, in my mind, and as I explained, it is the reason for the thread.

You have disagreed with me in a courteous way, and I appreciate it. But it is nothing, to agree or disagree about, or name call over. It is just a stating of personal beliefs, what works for others, and what does not, which I personally find very interesting and useful.

As for the title, I thought and think it is pertinent.

Yes, it sucks being human sometimes.




posted on Jul, 11 2009 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 




The intention here is to explore other's thoughts, philosphies, and practices, about forgiveness. I have welcomed and been curious about how others deal with this issue. I was pleased to see that other's had had dilemma's with it in their lives also, which many of them graciously shared.


it's why I'm eager to establish what people consider forgivable offenses - and what is not in any way possible to forgive. Forgive me if this seems overly dramatic - but the need for vengeance seems to outweigh our ability to forgive sometimes - and I have to laugh - because sometimes the amount of anger doesn't really match the crime. There are posters who can forgive things that are truly horrible - while others can't seem to let go of things that are relatively meaningless

but even as I say that I realize - pain is different things to different people


I initially referred to the women's group to explain the manner in which I was prompted to contemplate the subject matter.


it's a subject worth contemplating - and discussing - I wish this thread would continue on for quite a bit longer - it's incredibly relevant


When another poster made the assumptive and presumptuous claim that these women were "idiots", and "they are not good", I felt compelled to speak up on their behalf.


sometimes our ability to understand what was said is hampered by our initial emotional response to how it was said - but the true meaning remains the same regardless


It is appalling to me that someone could come here on what I consider to be an exploratory thread, and make sweeping generalizations about persons they do know not, and whose circumtances they will never fully realize.


lol now, that would be appalling - to me too :-)


You did remark about what you thought was the "point I was trying to make", being that the women are suffering because they cannot forgive. Yes. This was made in clear in the introductory post, in my mind, and as I explained, it is the reason for the thread.


then it seems fair to analyze their inability to forgive. They're victims of horrible crimes - too true. Are they also the victims of their religious leaders? It's an interesting question if you think about it - who has committed the greater crimes here?


You have disagreed with me in a courteous way, and I appreciate it.

:-) I haven't actually disagreed with you at all - I've only really been trying to sort out where people first stopped listening to each other

also - I think it's clear that not everyone understands - or agrees on what it means to forgive


But it is nothing, to agree or disagree about, or name call over. It is just a stating of personal beliefs, what works for others, and what does not, which I personally find very interesting and useful.


well, we all agree or disagree regardless - it's the only real way to discuss any subject. Our agreements and disagreements tend to be expressed or couched in a variety of ways - just some are camouflaged better than others - maybe


As for the title, I thought and think it is pertinent.


To err is human, to forgive divine - mortals take note


Yes, it sucks being human sometimes.


but - we don't get a choice

:-)

[edit on 7/12/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Jul, 13 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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You wrote:"What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable."

I must ask whether you have an opinion on what is not forgivable. It is not difficult for me to supply you with a list. Let's begin with a few questions.

"Is the holocaust forgiveable?"

"Is it forgiveable to ignore the genocide being committed in the Sudan? Or is it just easier to ignore?"

"Hey, how about the Twin Towers?"

"Are the cases summarized by the OP forgiveable?"

I was in a field of work closely allied to that of Lady in Waiting for twenty eight years. Attending an autopsy of a six month old child with multiple rib fractures and a brain swollen beyond the capacity of his as yet flexible skull will readily educate you on things that are unforgiveable. The child was shaken to death.

The answer to the questions above is quite simple. No. And I speak from a societal point of view.

Each of the cases outlined by the OP deal with tormented women who survived extreme childhood sexual abuse. They suffer from the lack of forgiveness that a segment of society has imposed upon them to make that segment of society comfortable.

Having prosecuted these cases over many years, the simple fact of the matter is that every day folks walking around would find life more pleasant to believe these things do not occur. And life is more pleasant if the victim "forgives" the abuser because, then...well it must not have been so bad.

I found cases of this type occuring in church settings extremely enlightening. Almost to a case a congregation would rally around the perpetrator. The acknowledgement of evil among them made faith a little too hard to swallow. I remember in particular a minister who appeared as a character witness for a congregant accused of molesting his step-daughter between the ages of six and nine. The cross examination was brief. Q:"Why are you testifying on behalf of the defendant today?
A: "Well he's a member of my congregation.
Q: "Wasn't his wife a member of your congregation?
A:Inaudible
Q: "And wasn't the child a member of your congregation?"
A: Inaudible
Attorney for the State: "No further questions."

And I must agree with Lady in Waiting. I would recommend Wiesenthaul's "Sunflower" without reservation.

I must say, with no disrespect intended, if you must ask what is and is not forgiveable, you live in a much safer world than I do. By all means, send me a map.


[edit on 13-7-2009 by MarcusEpictetus]



posted on Jul, 13 2009 @ 10:45 PM
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reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
 





You wrote:"What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable."

I must ask whether you have an opinion on what is not forgivable.

It is not difficult for me to supply you with a list.


:-)

yes!

I wasn't asking just to hear what others think - I'm very interested in the discussion that could come out of it

but I certainly have ideas about what I can and can't forgive - and whether or not I'm willing to admit that some of those are conditional even

but - can't do it now

if you come back tomorrow - I'm definitely in




I must say, with no disrespect intended, if you must ask what is and is not forgiveable, you live in a much safer world than I do. By all means, send me a map.


it's not about the world I live in - it's about how different everyone's ideas of what is or isn't forgivable

if you read through the thread - there's obviously some defferent scales being used

doesn't mean my world is any safer than yours just because I wonder

:-)


[edit on 7/13/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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If I may ...

This is such a difficult and complex issue, especially when it comes down to what is forgiveable or not.

In essence, forgiveness should be able to encompass any wrong done, otherwise we would call it conditional forgiveness and I don't think this is what we're talking about here.

Forgiveness is esentially an inner process of finding it within yourself to let harm and the wrong that was done to you go and not destroy you. It is way of understanding why and how it happened and find resaons and compassion for that person who did the wrong. If you were in his/her shoes is it understandable that you could have become so destructive/abusive etc.? This is not finding excuses for the behaviour or condoning it, but a necessary attempt to understand, and often we don't because it simply doesn't make sense as normal functional human beings how anyone could be that way.

In a violent society such as which I live in, and I suspect MarcusE above, the idea of forgiveness and unforgiveable acts becomes very dfficult to deal with on a daily basis. The violence, the crime, the rape of babies and old women etc are issues we deal with constantly. What makes it even more difficult, is that there doesn't seem to be enough consequences to those abusers, there doesn't seem to be and end to it and actually we feel completely helpless because it happens on such a big scale. It can happen anyday to any of us or our families. It becomes a coping mechanism, I think, to say "it is unforgiveable", because if we we say we forgive, it can be misinterpreted to mean "I condone."

However, forgiveness does not take away the consequences of the actions and those who hurt others will have to deal with with the spinoffs, be it prosecution/prison, breaking off contact or even a relationship. Forgiving someone does not mean that person have to continue to play a role in my life or even be part of it. This person may not add any continued value in my life. On the contrary. But ultimately, it's my decision by forgiving to let it go. I can then find peace within myself.

In the same vein, God's forgiveness is never an issue, but he doesn't wipe out the consequences or cleanup the mess. Whatever mess we make we still have to deal with and face the music. It is a critical distinction.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
 


My perspective is that there is nothing unforgiveable, by fiat that the material world itself is a fleeting illusion... people get caught up in the emotional and physical pains imposed upon their existence.

You ask a question, what is unforgiveable? I say forgiveness is not always the point. In the situation of child molestation and rape, it may not be necessary to forgive... but it also is not necessary to condemn or seek vengenace.

Feeding the dark actions done upon a person with further dark thoughts leads a person down the path of darkness, where they will become lost.

Everyone has either done terrible things or had terrible things done upon them. It is the essence of humanity, in a sense, that our suffering is a part of what makes us who we are... incremented and combined with the other aspects of the self.

I am personally imperfect, I hold grudges and feel slights as much as the next fleshly being... but at the core of myself, I know that ultimate forgiveness is divine, and it is preferable to succumbing to human ambitions of right and wrong.

Achieving this matter, on the other hand, is not a trivial feat. Our modern society is so poisoned and twisted into confusion that it is a constant oppressive pressure, suffocating and rancid in it's insistence... merely by fact of matter that the majority of the populace advocates hatred and retribution of those who have wronged them and those they loved.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
[mor


You ask a question, what is unforgiveable? I say forgiveness is not always the point. In the situation of child molestation and rape, it may not be necessary to forgive... but it also is not necessary to condemn or seek vengenace.






Is seeking justice the same thing as seeking vengeance? Just curious about your thoughts on this.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
 


and I'm back...



You wrote:"What I’m interested in hearing now is an explanation of what is and isn’t forgivable."

I must ask whether you have an opinion on what is not forgivable.


I do. It’s complicated – as I imagine it is for most people. Or – maybe not

Like most people, I’m torn between going with my most immediate response to any situation – or choosing to behave in accordance with what I’ve chosen to believe about myself – to live up to what I expect of myself. However, choosing between those two possibilities isn’t really accurate – or even honest

Forgiveness ends up being conditional – but the decision is never final

Time has the final say

So, on this subject of forgiveness – I choose to not look away from that which horrifies me or makes me angry – I try to look directly at it until I understand it. I don’t always get there – but I try.

If I’m able to understand something – I’m often also in a position to then forgive

This is me


It is not difficult for me to supply you with a list. Let's begin with a few questions.

"Is the holocaust forgiveable?"

"Is it forgiveable to ignore the genocide being committed in the Sudan? Or is it just easier to ignore?"

"Hey, how about the Twin Towers?"

"Are the cases summarized by the OP forgiveable?"


this sounds like baiting to me

are these examples intended for me – specifically – or, are they just bits and pieces of the world situation as it is – situations that clearly make you angry?

If you really want to get into it I will, but I have to tell you right off the bat – my response to each one of your questions right now is going to be: it depends


I was in a field of work closely allied to that of Lady in Waiting for twenty eight years. Attending an autopsy of a six month old child with multiple rib fractures and a brain swollen beyond the capacity of his as yet flexible skull will readily educate you on things that are unforgiveable. The child was shaken to death.


I think I see where we’re about to have a problem with this discussion – you already seem to consider yourself something of an authority on just how bad bad can get

you may be wading knee deep in experience – but it doesn’t mean I haven’t had my own experience – I don’t need this childs skull to educate me as to what is or isn’t forgivable. So, if you want an honest back and forth on all this – how about if you step back?


The answer to the questions above is quite simple. No. And I speak from a societal point of view.


and that would be your answer – not necessarily mine

I should also point out that if you want genuine responses from me, you don’t get to speak for society – you get to speak for you.


Each of the cases outlined by the OP deal with tormented women who survived extreme childhood sexual abuse. They suffer from the lack of forgiveness that a segment of society has imposed upon them to make that segment of society comfortable.


Please explain. I believe you’re saying that society doesn’t forgive them for not forgiving their abusers – am I wrong?


Having prosecuted these cases over many years, the simple fact of the matter is that every day folks walking around would find life more pleasant to believe these things do not occur. And life is more pleasant if the victim "forgives" the abuser because, then...well it must not have been so bad.


well – your preaching to the wrong person here – because I agree with you. I don’t believe people must forgive anything.

However, I also think your view of society is not realistic – no doubt influenced by your years in the trenches. You don’t think there are members of “society” that are capable of acknowledging how unpleasant life really is? Do you also believe most people would prefer to have these women suffer more just so that they don’t have to think about it?

I gather that you don’t see yourself as one of the “every day” folks

:-)


I found cases of this type occuring in church settings extremely enlightening. Almost to a case a congregation would rally around the perpetrator.


no doubt


I must say, with no disrespect intended, if you must ask what is and is not forgiveable, you live in a much safer world than I do. By all means, send me a map.


and I’ll reemphasize – with completely different words this time – you presume to understand my understanding of the world (in addition to assuming to know why I asked the question in the first place)

it was just a tad disrespectful after all :-)

so, your turn...let me understand something here: you think that people are never to be forgiven for their crimes?

[edit on 7/14/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by Travel_light
 


I'm so surprised that no one has responded to this



In a violent society such as which I live in, and I suspect MarcusE above, the idea of forgiveness and unforgiveable acts becomes very dfficult to deal with on a daily basis....It becomes a coping mechanism, I think, to say "it is unforgiveable", because if we we say we forgive, it can be misinterpreted to mean "I condone."


I wanted to quote the entire thing :-)

you said some things that are important to me - and I think in all this - what it does come down to sometimes is - it's just hard

it's hard to live in this world sometimes - in this life

and some people do live in situations that are far more difficult than others -we all do so many things - make so many choices - just so we can cope

you're so right

I'm going to be sorry I said this - probably - but we can love the sinner and still hate the sin - if we just gotta hate something

forgiving the person isn't the same thing as forgiving the crime



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 




Everyone has either done terrible things or had terrible things done upon them. It is the essence of humanity, in a sense, that our suffering is a part of what makes us who we are... incremented and combined with the other aspects of the self.


there's no escaping ourselves - is there? :-)

and nobody wants to believe that they're capable of doing harm -

it's much easier to believe that evil is something that exists outside of us - separately from each of us - and so it's easier to judge, and then harder to forgive



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 06:06 AM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 

Good morning. Please accept my apology for not being in last night. I would have loved to have had an active discussion with you.

In no way should you consider that I was baiting you with the initial list of questions regarding the holocaust, genocide, or the towers. It was a starting point.

To be totally upfront, I don't consider myself one of the every day folk. It does not come from a feeling of superiority or authority. As you referred to, it comes from being in the trenches.

Should I take anything of your post out of context, it is early and I'm on my first cup of coffee.

You referred to the passage of time in relation to forgiveness. That is interesting. I was talking Sunday evening with a young man who is a missionary in China--well, officially, an English teacher in China. He was showing photographs from a non-state supported orphanage. There were all these kids giving what I called the traditional "Peace" sign (I am of that vintage, ahem). I asked why all the peace signs and he responded that didn't mean peace, that it meant "Victory over Japan". The atrocities committed against the Chinese by the Japanese following their invasion of China in the 1930's have NEVER been forgiven. The inability to forgive has been passed down generations now. This is something embedded in their culture now.

Well, I must run. I will attempt to be here this evening if work allows. I hope to speak with you again.

And, again, about those initial questions...it comes from being a law student many years ago. My professors would begin with the most outrageous example answering the question of the day and ask that you respond. They kindly referred to it as merely use of the Socratic system.

In any "debate", if you will, the ultimate issue is defining your terms.

Having said that, I hope we can continue to discuss this matter. Understand, there are issues specifically related to victimization that makes me angry. That will be self-evident in some of my posts.

Now..."Peace!"



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Society is the environment in which we live.

Wrong. Society refers to the web of intraspecific behavioral relationships created by animals that live in groups. It is a part of the living environment of the species but by no means the whole of it.


I do understand now how you were using the term "social".

No you don't, as demonstrated by the following meaningless statement:


While above other species, human beings remain the premiere and dominant social group.

There is no biospheric, transpecific 'society' to which all species belong.


(Showing forgiveness) is "parlor-behavior" at it's finest. A learned behavior, which is superficial and not genuine.

What on Earth can you possibly mean by distinguishing 'superficial' and 'genuine' behaviour? Behaviour is behaviour. All of it is instinct modulated by learning. The learned component is not in any way less 'genuine' than the instinctive component. They are one and the same. Learn some biology.


(How genuine forgiveness reflects the real feelings) is not immaterial. It is the very substance. Your suggestion to "eat it and carry on" can create inner turmoil, and prevent healing.

The dire consequences you predict from 'eating it and carrying on' are hogwash. The idea that suppressing anger and other negative emotions is in some way psychologically damaging is completely without foundation. In the first place, it is a subliterate distortion of Freud's ideas concerning repression, which he said was an unconscious process rather than a conscious one; in the second place, Freud was wrong. This has now been well established by actual research, something Uncle Ziggy never did. Dumbed-down article about the now proven uselessness of anger management. These ideas you propound are wrong twice over, not to mention hopelessly outdated.


1. At 18 months old a woman was brutally raped by her father. This essentially destroyed her internal organs, as you might imagine. Although now 31, she still wears a colostomy bag, and always will. The other "feminine" organs are now useless, or have been removed.

2. A age seven, a woman's mother poured a pot of hot boiling grease on her head. At 27, she has no hair, and has scarring to her face and shoulders.

And you're telling people like this that their lives will be better if they could just come to terms with their anger and learn to forgive?

Good grief.

I suppose you realize what that makes you?

Yuck. I really have nothing more to say to you. I now leave this thread, and my computer keyboard, to wash my hands. In disinfectant.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 07:50 AM
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I agree with pre-going post because we don't know how it will be and what consequences it will bring. We should live our own lifes and fogive if we need this, not only to be fogiven!



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 


Hmm. Another personal attack.

The idea you queried "telling people like this that their lives will be better if they could come to terms with their anger and learn to forgive".......

Indicates that you have (still) not grasped the intention of the discussion.
I will not explain it to you again.

The topic is inherently non-judgmental. (At least until you came along).


You have described how you apply the subject matter to your own life and it works for you. The problem with your frustration seems to be that not everyone accepts the superficial standard, and you don't seem to grasp that. In other words, if it works for you, then why the hades does it not work for everyone else! It should, because you said so! lol.

Is this just simple self righteousness? What is that about?

Look, I really don't mean to sound patronizing, and you have accused me of that before. BUT you do have a different take on the subject matter, and to a degree I appreciate your input here. My original intention was to explore the thoughts of others, and your thoughts remain valid.

But to be honest, your posts are coming accross as belligerent and also harboring a great need "to be right".

And we can do without that. (Please and thank you.) : )

Oh, "Wash your hands with disinfectant". lol lol lol!

You do have a taste for the drama.!!!



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 10:07 AM
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Found this article:


Forgiveness is letting go of the need for revenge and releasing negative thoughts of bitterness and resentment. If you are a parent, you can provide a wonderful model for your children by forgiving. If they observe your reconciliation with friends or family members who have wronged you, perhaps they will learn not to harbor resentment over the ways in which you may have disappointed them. If you are not a parent, forgiveness is still an extremely valuable skill to have.

In the movie “Avalon,” the uncle stopped talking to his family members for the rest of his life because they started Thanksgiving dinner without him after he was excessively late for the zillionth time. What a waste of energy it is to stay angry for decades.

Forgiveness can be a gift that we give to ourselves. Here are some easy steps towards forgiveness:

•Acknowledge your own inner pain.
•Express those emotions in non-hurtful ways without yelling or attacking.
•Protect yourself from further victimization.
•Try to understand the point of view and motivations of the person to be forgiven; replace anger with compassion.
•Forgive yourself for your role in the relationship.
•Decide whether to remain in the relationship.
•Perform the overt act of forgiveness verbally or in writing. If the person is dead or unreachable, you can still write down your feelings in letter form.

What Forgiveness Is Not…

•Forgiveness is not forgetting or pretending it didn’t happen. It did happen, and we need to retain the lesson learned without holding onto the pain.
•Forgiveness is not excusing. We excuse a person who is not to blame. We forgive because a wrong was committed.
•Forgiveness is not giving permission to continue hurtful behaviors; nor is it condoning the behavior in the past or in the future.
•Forgiveness is not reconciliation. We have to make a separate decision about whether to reconcile with the person we are forgiving or whether to maintain our distance.

Forgiving and letting go can be very difficult challenges, but it’s even more stressful to hold on to grudges. There are several symbolic letting-go rituals that can help with the process. If you are having trouble forgiving someone else, write them a letter expressing all of your feelings and explaining why you need to let go. You don’t need to mail that letter — it is cathartic just to write it all down. You can also write down all of your excess “baggage” on a piece of paper and burn it or cast it into the sea in a bottle when you are ready to really let go.


What is Forgiveness? 2007 Article

It seems interesting and thought others may enjoy it.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by TheMythLives
 


I very much appreciate this. Thanks for posting it. It does capture much of the sentiment being expressed here.

liw



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Not a problem. I thought it was only appropriate since the thread is about forgiveness in the psychological processes.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by ladyinwaiting
 


Good thread S&F.

I have some unpopular ideas but for now, a nice childrens story.


The Little Soul and The Sun
A Children's Parable
by Neale Donald Walsch, Conversations With God




Once upon no time, there was a little Soul who said to God, "I know who I am."

And God said, "That's wonderful! Who are you?"

And the Little Soul shouted, "I'm the Light!"

God smiled a big smile. "That's right!" God exclaimed. "You are the Light."

The Little Soul was so happy, for it had figured out what all the souls in the Kingdom were there to figure out.

"Wow," said the Little Soul, "this is really cool!"

But soon, knowing who it was was not enough. The Little Soul felt stirrings inside, and now wanted to be who it was. And so the Little Soul went back to God (which is not a bad idea for all souls who want to be Who They Really Are) and said,

"Hi, God! Now that I know Who I am, is it okay for me to be it?"

And God said, "You mean you want to be Who You Already Are?"

"Well," replied the Little Soul," it's one thing to know Who I Am, and another thing altogether to actually be it. I want to feel what it's like to be the Light!"

"But you already are the Light," God repeated, smiling again.

"Yes, but I want to see what that feels like!" cried the Little Soul.

"Well," said God with a chuckle, "I suppose I should have known. You always were the adventuresome one."

Then God's expression changed. "There's only one thing..."

"What?" asked the Little Soul.

"Well, there is nothing else but the Light. You see, I created nothing but what you are; and so, there is no easy way for you to experience yourself as Who You Are, since there is nothing that you are not."

"Huh?" said the Little Soul, who was now a little confused.

"Think of it this way," said God. "You are like a candle in the Sun. Oh, you're there all right. Along with a million, gazillion other candles who make up the Sun. And the sun would not be the Sun without you. Nay, it would be a sun without one of its candles...and that would not be the Sun at all; for it would not shine as brightly. Yet, how to know yourself as the Light when you are amidst the Light -that is the question."

"Well," the Little Soul perked up, "you're God. Think of something!"

Once more God smiled. "I already have," God said. "Since you cannot see yourself as the Light when you are in the Light, we'll surround you with darkness."

"What's darkness?" the Little Soul asked.

God replied, "It is that which you are not."

"Will I be afraid of the dark?" cried the Little Soul.

"Only if you choose to be," God answered. "There is nothing, really, to be afraid of, unless you decide that there is. You see, we are making it all up. We are pretending."

"Oh," said the Little Soul, and felt better already.

Then God explained that, in order to experience anything at all, the exact opposite of it will appear. "It is a great gift," God said, "because without it, you could not know what anything is like. You could not know Warm without Cold, Up without Down, Fast without Slow. You could not know Left without Right, Here without There, Now without Then."

"And so," God concluded, "when you are surrounded with darkness, do not shake your fist and raise your voice and curse the darkness. Rather be a Light unto the darkness, and don't be mad about it. Then you will know Who You Really Are, and all others will know, too. Let your Light shine so that everyone will know how special you are!"

"You mean it's okay to let others see how special I am?" asked the Little Soul.

"Of course!" God chuckled. "It's very okay! But remember,'special' does not mean 'better.' Everybody is special, each in their own way! Yet many others have forgotten that. They will see that it is okay for them to be special only when you see that it is okay for you to be special."

"Wow," said the Little Soul, dancing and skipping and laughing and jumping with joy. "I can be as special as I want to be!"

"Yes, and you can start right now," said God, who was dancing and skipping and laughing right along with the Little Soul.

"What part of special do you want to be?"

"What part of special?" the Little Soul repeated. "I don't understand."

"Well," God explained, "being the Light is being special, and being special has a lot of parts to it. It is special to be kind. It is special to be gentle. It is special to be creative. It is special to be patient. Can you think of any other ways it is special to be?"

The Little Soul sat quietly for a moment. "I can think of lots of ways to be special!" the Little Soul then exclaimed. "It is special to be helpful. It is special to be sharing. It is special to be friendly. It is special to be considerate of others!"

"Yes!" God agreed, "and you can be all of those things, or any part of special you wish to be, at any moment. That's what it means to be the Light."

"I know what I want to be, I know what I want to be!" the Little Soul announced with great excitement. "I want to be the part of special called 'forgiving'. Isn't it special to be forgiving?"

"Oh, yes," God assured the Little Soul. "That is very special."

"Okay," said the Little Soul. "That's what I want to be. I want to be forgiving. I want to experience myself as that."

"Good," said God, "but there's one thing you should know."

The Little Soul was becoming a bit impatient now. It always seemed as though there were some complication.

"What is it?" the Little Soul sighed.

"There is no one to forgive."

"No one?" The Little Soul could hardly believe what had been said.

"No one!" God repeated. "Everything I have made is perfect. There is not a single soul in all creation less perfect than you. Look around you."

It was then that the Little Soul realized a large crowd had gathered. Souls had come from far and wide ~ from all over the Kingdom ~ for the word had gone forth that the Little Soul was having this extraordinary conversation with God, and everyone wanted to hear what they were saying. Looking at the countless other souls gathered there, the Little Soul had to agree. None appeared less wonderful, less magnificent, or less perfect than the Little Soul itself. Such was the wonder of the souls gathered around, and so bright was their Light, that the Little Soul could scarcely gaze upon them.

"Who, then, to forgive?" asked God.

"Boy, this is going to be no fun at all!" grumbled the Little Soul. "I wanted to experience myself as One Who Forgives. I wanted to know what that part of special felt like."

And the Little Soul learned what it must feel like to be sad. But just then a Friendly Soul stepped forward from the crowd.

"Not to worry, Little Soul," the Friendly Soul said, "I will help you."

"You will?" the Little Soul brightened. "But what can you do?"

"Why, I can give you someone to forgive!"

"You can?"

"Certainly!" chirped the Friendly Soul. "I can come into your next lifetime and do something for you to forgive."

"But why? Why would you do that?" the Little Soul asked. "You, who are a Being of such utter perfection! You, who vibrate with such a speed that it creates a Light so bright that I can hardly gaze upon you! What could cause you to want to slow down your vibration to such a speed that your bright Light would become dark and dense? What could cause you ~ who are so light that you dance upon the stars and move through the Kingdom with the speed of your thought--to come into my life and make yourself so heavy that you could do this bad thing?"

"Simple," the Friendly Soul said. "I would do it because I love you."

The Little Soul seemed surprised at the answer.

"Don't be so amazed," said the Friendly Soul, "you have done the same thing for me. Don't you remember? Oh, we have danced together, you and I, many times. Through the eons and across all the ages have we danced. Across all time and in many places have we played together. You just don't remember."

"We have both been All Of It. We have been the Up and the Down of it, the Left and the Right of it. We have been the Here and the There of it, the Now and the Then of it. We have been the male and the female, the good and the bad; we have both been the victim and the villain of it."

"Thus have we come together, you and I, many times before; each bringing to the other the exact and perfect opportunity to Express and to Experience Who We Really Are. And so," the Friendly Soul explained further, "I will come into your next lifetime and be the 'bad one' this time. I will do something really terrible, and then you can experience yourself as the One Who Forgives.

"But what will you do?" the Little Soul asked, just a little nervously, "that will be so terrible?"

"Oh," replied the Friendly Soul with a twinkle, "we'll think of something."

Then the Friendly Soul seemed to turn serious, and said in a quiet voice, "You are right about one thing, you know."

"What is that?" the Little Soul wanted to know.

"I will have to slow down my vibration and become very heavy to do this not-so-nice thing. I will have to pretend to be something very unlike myself. And so, I have but one favour to ask of you in return."

"Oh, anything, anything!" cried the Little Soul, and began to dance and sing, "I get to be forgiving, I get to be forgiving!"

Then the Little Soul saw that the Friendly Soul was remaining very quiet.

"What is it?" the Little Soul asked. "What can I do for you? You are such an angel to be willing to do this for me!"

"Of course this Friendly Soul is an angel!" God interrupted. "Everyone is! Always remember: I have sent you nothing but angels."

And so the Little Soul wanted more than ever to grant the Friendly Soul's request. "What can I do for you?" the Little Soul asked again.

"In the moment that I strike you and smite you," the Friendly Soul replied, "in the moment that I do the worst to you that you could possible imagine ~ in that very moment..."

"Yes?" the Little Soul interrupted, "yes...?""Remember Who I Really Am."

"Oh, I will!" cried the Little Soul, "I promise! I will always remember you as I see you right here, right now!"

"Good," said the Friendly Soul, "because, you see, I will have been pretending so hard, I will have forgotten myself. And if you do not remember me as I really am, I may not be able to remember for a very long time. And if I forget Who I Am, you may even forget Who You Are, and we will both be lost. Then we will need another soul to come along and remind us both of Who We Are."

"No, we won't!" the Little Soul promised again. "I will remember you! And I will thank you for bringing me this gift ~ the chance to experience myself as Who I Am.

" And so, the agreement was made. And the Little Soul went forth into a new lifetime, excited to be the Light, which was very special, and excited to be that part of special called Forgiveness.

And the Little Soul waited anxiously to be able to experience itself as Forgiveness, and to thank whatever other soul made it possible. And at all the moments in that new lifetime, whenever a new soul appeared on the scene, whether that new soul brought joy or sadness--and especially if it brought sadness--the Little Soul thought of what God had said.




www.sapphyr.net...



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by MarcusEpictetus
 



Good morning. Please accept my apology for not being in last night. I would have loved to have had an active discussion with you.


and accept mine - for not being here when you are - and possibly not this evening - don't know

I'll just reply to this for now


In no way should you consider that I was baiting you with the initial list of questions regarding the holocaust, genocide, or the towers. It was a starting point.


I understand


To be totally upfront, I don't consider myself one of the every day folk. It does not come from a feeling of superiority or authority. As you referred to, it comes from being in the trenches.


and I can understand that - I've known some other people who've worked in the trenches - occupational hazard I suppose

my concern is - it sometimes becomes difficult for the completely immersed to understand that the everyday folk have a better handle on things than they might be willing to believe


Should I take anything of your post out of context, it is early and I'm on my first cup of coffee.


my brain comes to life only after the third... :-)


...The atrocities committed against the Chinese by the Japanese following their invasion of China in the 1930's have NEVER been forgiven. The inability to forgive has been passed down generations now. This is something embedded in their culture now.


no doubt the Germans are on the receiving end of something very much like this - I've never had a conversation with a post war German citizen about any of it - I often wonder

The Native Americans, African slaves, the Vietnamese have some things to say about it all, how about North Africa? Africa in general...it's endless, isn't it?

History is made up of winners and losers - abuses and atrocities throughout

It's why this entire subject is important I think - when is enough enough? When is it time to let go - move on? Can that in reality ever happen?


In any "debate", if you will, the ultimate issue is defining your terms.


fair enough - let's consider them defined


Having said that, I hope we can continue to discuss this matter.


no problem here - though - I hope that there will be others that join in - this is bigger than both of us :-)


Understand, there are issues specifically related to victimization that makes me angry. That will be self-evident in some of my posts.


I understand - I do - hard to get around if it's personal

so - no worries

there will be plenty of things that are self evident about my posts as well - but that's another story

:-)

[edit on 7/15/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by cindymars
 


Thank you for posting this. I have mostly been on the fence as far as reincarnation is concerned, but here the point is very clear that offensive deeds serve a purpose insofar as they are an opportunity to forgive and learn to forgive. It is a part of the human condition.

.........off topic for a sec but I wanted to tell you that I have seen your avy all around on the forums, and I was delighted to see it here. It's so cool, as is your username........ Now back---

I enjoyed the story immensely, and I appreciate your posting it.

Now.............about these "unpopular opinions?" hmm?



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