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Denial Of The Holocaust

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posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by Skelkie3

Originally posted by neformore

reply to post by Skelkie3
 

Well thank you for your critique of my post.

If you'd read the next link I provided, you would have seen that I went on and produced a more conservative estimate. But no. You didn't.

Why?

Because it didn't suit your argument. Thats life I guess.

Fair enough.

WHen you get down to it, to brass tacks as they say where I come from, heres what it all boils down to.

The Nazi's exterminated, using industrial killing methods, millions of people. I don't know the exact number. Neither do you. I suspect no one will ever really know it.

I do know this.

No one denies the deaths of the homosexuals
No one denies the deaths of the romanies
No one denies the deaths of the mentally handicapped and infirm
No one denies the deaths of the poles
No one denies the deaths of the russian prisoners of war

People only deny the deaths of the jews.

They question the numbers, they say it was "exaggerated". Some claim the whole thing was a hoax. The single, consistent point and argument presented is always linked to the jews.

Not to anyone else. Just to the jews.

No one questions the amount of dead allied soldiers and civilians in WW2.
No one questions the amount dead axis soldiers and civilians in WW2.
No one argues that the methods of recording those deaths is flawed.

The only time things are supposedly innacurate is when it comes to the figures relating to jews.

No one argues the historical events of D-Day.
No one argues the events of the Battle of Britain.
No one argues about the events of Stalingrad.
No one argues about the events in North Africa.

Witness testimony, allied reports, survior reports, they're all fine for those things.

And yet when it comes to the reports about the camp liberation, when it comes to the reports from the survivors, when it comes to the testimony of soldiers who had fought all the way across Europe and experienced the absolute horrors of war, only to find that what they thought was the absolute base barbarity of humanity could sink to even deeper depths - those reports are unreliable. They aren't true. They are exaggerated. The Nazi's own records, the confessions of the guards at the camps, all apparently seem to be considered lies.

Why? Why is everything else ok, but mention the holocaust and suddenly every accepted method of evidence gathering is wrong?

Can you answer that without using the word jew?


Yes it's true that of the several numerical options you present as ' fact ' I didn't get beyond the second. I apologize for my shallowness.
I wish I could say that I don't care how many or what number - but, these numbers represent people who are gone and over with prematurely.
This is particularly sad for me because I am an Athiest , and I don't believe these people are hanging out beyond the pearly gates with their loved ones... they're just gone.
How dare anyone do this to one or six million or sixteen million people ?

But, I believe that these shrines in our hearts and in the cemetaries are lessened when they have the wrong names on them, or improper info in general.

There are controversies surrounding atrocities in too many places where a bunch of nuts think that others are somehow cheaper than themselves.

One group that consistantly expresses this belief through word and action are among us now ! And the reason that these discussions are usually controversial, is that we all see this WRONG but most have been programmed to ignore it or at least overlook it. It's a natural for conflict.
People will struggle to wake up, and fight to go back to sleep, I guess.

A question still bothers me, and no one will ever answer unless they hate the people we are discussing : why do people hate them so ?

And why would the people who were ( arguably ) the most logical people in history, do these terrible things ?


[edit on 27/6/09 by neformore]


bumped...




posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 07:22 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by pieman
would you mind explaining how anti-denial legislation prevents either racial or religious discrimination.


I can't because I'm not convinced it does. In fact, as I stated, it tends to get used as a tool by those who seek to promote the denial issue.

But - the initial laws were designed to prevent a resurgance of the Nazi party, and its associated ideals. KRISKALI777 refers to that as sedition. But he/she has the benefit of living in fairly peaceful times and not in the aftermath of WW2 and the piles of rubble that covered the continent, where people were living in fear and coming to terms with the greatest war the planet had ever seen and wondering what the future might be like if such ideas and ideology came back.

Trying to judge laws outlawing the Nazi party immediately after WW2 by todays standards is an exercise in ignorant arrogance in my opinion. I highly doubt it any of us contributing to this argument were there at the time, and none of us are in a position to judge the mindset.

That having been said, Holocaust Denial is all about bigotry. It can be couched in as many propagandic terms as those who seek to promote it come up with ("truth" being the biggest oxymoron they use) but as I have repeatedly pointed out, the arguments from the deniers only apply to jews, and things to do with jews, blaming a jewish conspiracy for the worlds ills and - as we've seen in posts today - even going so far as to blame the jews for WW2. Thats where the subsequent link to modern laws come from, because they refer to specific targetteing of jewish people, and denial of the holocaust on race/religious grounds.

People convieniently forget that the Holocaust denial movement has its links right back to Nazi sympathisers (again as seen above - Udo Walendy was such a person who served in the Wermwracht, and was ostensibly drafted into the personality cult Hitler Youth movement). Some of those people "drank the koolaid" as it were when it came to Nazi ideology, while others did not. His works - and those of his ilk - have been seized on by bigots ever since solely for the purpose of spreading their indoctrinated hate.

The argument is that if you don't legislate against such things, then "freedom of speech" becomes "freedom to hate".

And reading some elements of this thread, I can see where the legislation comes from, and why its necessary.




As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by walsbg22 Guys, can you tell me when Jews have used the holocaust for sympathy or to get something. I'd like a video or quote from good source because I've never seen this used.


As my old Air Force instructor often said to a recruit countering his instruction,"Good point, well presented!"

To the anti-sematic idiot who said that Jews created Israel, they did not.


The State of Israel is Created

The end of World War II led to the rapid disappearance of French and British influence throughout the Arab world, as the rapid eclipse of the old imperial powers transformed the politics not only of Asia but of the Middle East and Africa as well. The mandated territories granted by the League of Nations after World War I were granted independence. These included Syria and Jordan in 1946 and Lebanon in 1943. The mandate in Palestine was liquidated, and a Jewish homeland -- promised after World War I but never granted -- was created in 1948: the State of Israel.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by fritz
 


The state of Israel was founded on terrorism, having terrorised the British protectorates and the palestinians so much that the British left and eventually gave in to the UN mandate. Here are a quick list of )ewish atrocities commited in and by the state of Israel, before and after its founding.



Don't expect any Hollywood films highlighting any of these massacres: 1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946. 2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951. 3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948. 4. Falameh, April 2, 1951. 5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948. 6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953. 7. Carmel, April 20, 1948. 8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954. 9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948. 10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955. 11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948. 12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955. 13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948. 14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955 15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948. 16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955. 17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950. 18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955. 19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956. 20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956. 21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956. 22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956. 23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956. 24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956. 25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956. 26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956. 26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

www.rense.com...

and in regards to what you say about the promise, which was brought about by the )ewish promise to get the americans in on the war and destroy germany, which indoing so instead of accepting the german peace treaty, cost untold millions of European lives in a pointless war.
Then when world )ewry declared war on germany in world war 2, then the placing of )ews in concentration camps is wholey )ustified and quite resonable.




The Daily Express (London) published an article on March 24, 1933 announcing that the Jews had already launched their boycott against Germany and described a forthcoming "holy war". The Express urged Jews everywhere to boycott German goods and demonstrate against German economic interests. The Express said that Germany was "now confronted with an international boycott of its trade, its finances, and its industry....In London, New York, Paris and Warsaw, Jewish businessmen are united to go on an economic crusade."


www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

[edit on 28/6/09 by fapython]

[edit on 28/6/09 by fapython]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 09:47 AM
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I think the greatest disservice the pro-holocaust camp has done to itself is to encourage imprisonment laws against holocaust deniers.

I for one, swallowed the holocaust story line, hook and sinker when it was popularized/propagandized in the 70's. So when the first denier was sent to prison for his belief, the alarm bell started ringing.

I asked myself, how can this be so in societies that pride itself in freedom of speech and expression. Isn't this is exactly what people from western democracies have been deriding totalitarian countries for their practice? Is there some things that we are not supposed to know? What is it that is being hidden from us?

For such draconian and unprecedented laws to be enacted in free societies, there has to be corruption in the system of the highest order. It also suggests big secrets to be kept out of the public eye.

Frankly, the whole exercise is self defeating and totally futile.

It has caused me to rethink and to research the whole matter with more critical appraisal. As, I'm sure with a lot of others who share my sentiment, the holocaust is no longer a cut and dried story.

Questions need to be asked. Honest debate need to take place without fear of being branded anti-this or anti-that. The more rantings of censorship or criminalizing of holocaust deniers, the more it will produce the opposite result.

Personally, I don't deny the holocaust took place. As with some, I suspect it may have been exaggerated.

My main objection is the fact that the tragedy was copyrighted and exploited by many to financially line their own pockets and to garner sympathy to obfuscate their own atrocities to their less fortunate human beings.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by A Conscience]

[edit on 28-6-2009 by A Conscience]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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Hello great post thank you for sharing. I have something I would like to share:

I have been interested in this conspiracy for a while but was immediately turned off by the whole "denial" part. The documentary I saw said nothing about outright denial, more like a misrepresentation, i.e. 3 million Jews and not 6 million, either way, it was kind of interesting. And then people started saying "holocaust denial" etc, etc, so I thought this was just the wave of anti-semitism. But anyways, I started looking up this website called "jew watch" just type that into google, and some of the things are interesting but I've noticed that both documentaries couldn't read graphs correctly unless it was me. The first guy showed the Jewish population in 1945, and then showed in 1946 and it was going down, and he said if the holocaust happened the population would go down, but it did!

And then on the jew watch website, he has this graph supposedly saying how he gets more hits than the holocaust museum, but on the graph the holocaust musueum is winning out. So do these people not know how to read charts or what? I think the holocaust happened, and happens regularly, the only difference is the holocaust was a huge media propaganda tool to go into world war 2. And many, many people bought it because it seemed like the right thing to do . I don't deny that. And that is wrong, because if 6 million jews being killed is a crime, so is the 50 million people that died in that war as well. Not a just war. They should have just assassinated Hitler, too bad they were in collusion with him.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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I can't believe the garbage that passes for discussion on these forums. Hitler's plans were to provide lebensraum for "aryan" population expansion at the expense of slavs and any other none "aryans". The jewish population of europe was to be exterminated. Initially Jews were to be deported but there was no place to deport them to. Subsequent invasions of neighboring countries placed large jewish populations in nazi hands. The solution was the establishment of stalags throughout the german occupation zones. The idea that mass executions did not take place is ludicrous. Those who were not able to provide service were slaughtered. It took a while to arrive at gas chambers but arrive the germans did. Of course other ethnic groups were destined for slaughter as well. Slavs were to be provide labor until the "aryan" population in the conquered nations were sufficient to be self sustaining. Gypsies, homosexuals, eventually slavs and anyone not meeting the criteria set out by german pseudo scientists were destined for extermination.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by pacific_waters
I can't believe the garbage that passes for discussion on these forums. Hitler's plans were to provide lebensraum for "aryan" population expansion at the expense of slavs and any other none "aryans". The jewish population of europe was to be exterminated. Initially Jews were to be deported but there was no place to deport them to. Subsequent invasions of neighboring countries placed large jewish populations in nazi hands. The solution was the establishment of stalags throughout the german occupation zones. The idea that mass executions did not take place is ludicrous. Those who were not able to provide service were slaughtered. It took a while to arrive at gas chambers but arrive the germans did. Of course other ethnic groups were destined for slaughter as well. Slavs were to be provide labor until the "aryan" population in the conquered nations were sufficient to be self sustaining. Gypsies, homosexuals, eventually slavs and anyone not meeting the criteria set out by german pseudo scientists were destined for extermination.



The Germans took them in after Russia kicked them out, then the Jews turned against Germany during WW1. The Jews promised to bring the USA into the war to defeat Germany if the British empire gave them palastine ...Read the Balfour Declaration .. It's always the same with the Jews, they are for no one but themselves.
,...www.invitation.to...


[edit on 6/28/2009 by KAKUSA]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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reply to post by KRISKALI777
 


I saw a special one time where they kept the stacks of shoes from all these holocaust victims.

Mounds and mounds and mounds of old shoes, many little shoes (childrens). Dozens of stacks that went up thirty feet, unbelievable. So many shoes, each belonged to a person just like you and me, a person that had the dumb luck of being born in the wrong timeline and place.

the holocaust happened once and it could happen again if mankind does not wake the frig up and learn from his past mistakes.

Look up children to the sun
It was made for everyone

Look up children higher and higher
Can't you see that hate breeds fire.

Man must learn to love not hate
Or destruction will be his final fate.


-------------------my poem in 7th grade



[edit on 28-6-2009 by ofhumandescent]

[edit on 28-6-2009 by ofhumandescent]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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Personally, I don't deny the holocaust took place. As with some, I suspect it may have been exaggerated.
reply to post by A Conscience
 


I studied the holocaust in a college course. My professor was a man who lived through it.

No, not exaggerated, under reported if you want the truth.

There were probably more than 12 million human beings slaughtered.

Start getting bags of beans and count out 12 million. You have no idea how many souls were snuffed out.

The mind cannot conceive of the full atrocity that actually took place.

and sadly enough, it could happen again because mankind just keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.



[edit on 28-6-2009 by ofhumandescent]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by KAKUSA
 





The Germans took them in after Russia kicked them out, then the Jews turned against Germany during WW1.

Russia kicked Jews out? Please, enlighten me, when it happened? There were much much much more Jews is Russia then in Germany (especially since Poland was part of Russian empire).
Jews turned against Germany? Should i bring names of Jewish German soldiers/officers/scientists?
There is one good example of God's irony - Frtis Haber, German Jew. Developed German chemical warfare during WW1. His own wife shot herself because of his involvement. Dude considered himself true German to the bone. In his institute Zyklon B was developed in 1920s. Then Nazis threw him out. He went to Britain but those guys remembered his chemical stuff and silently boycotted him in his work at university. Then, only then he accepted offer from Hebrew university in Jerusalem.
He turned against Germany or Germany turned against him?


[edit on 28-6-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by KRISKALI777
But dont deny the Holocaust.
You may just get thrown in Gaol, or have your career all but ruined- like Mel Gibson.


Good post. But we should not be fearful of investigating facts and figures for ourselves. I don't think anyone would state that they believe killing Jews was good but denying it or researching it should not be a crime nor should it be something that causes fear in people.

If you are afraid to speak freely and to educate yourself about history then you are not free.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by ufonautradio
 


Wow. There is a SURGE of protective to Israel people on here lately.

What the hell are you all afraid of? That Israel will get caught in it's lie, abuses, and plain out murder? Seriously. I am not racist against Jews. But the actions taken by Israel are appalling and so are the actions taken by the United States. Strangely thought when I complain about my country I am not called an Anti-American or racist against "Americans". Not yet at least. People who keep crying and whining and labeling every critic of Israel an anti-Semitic seriously need to grow the hell up.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by THX-1138
and ate your grandmother's corpse.


not bad on crackers

with a little tabasco



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


'defunct' does not necessarily mean extinct, non-existent, or ephemeral

instead, 'no longer in use, or inactive'......

people can shout it

can invoke its name

does not make it a viable, active, legitimate movement as defined by its establishment



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 07:38 PM
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The Jews seem to have no idea how pityful they sound as they protest about the documented facts of the holocaust.

Compare it with the more than documented facts, even video evidence of the holocaust they created in Gaza and they are denying it happened.

Should it not be a crime to deny the holocaust in Gaza ?

If it were most Jews should now be in jail.



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by ofhumandescent
 



and sadly enough, it could happen again because mankind just keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.


Isn't that precisely what is happening in Gaza? Strange paradox isn't it?



posted on Jun, 28 2009 @ 09:39 PM
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I have trouble with any discussion where "The Evil Jews" have this master plan to do __________________.
You would think that for a supposed group of evil masterminds, they could have done a better job.
They scheme and plot for a homeland and what they end up with is pretty worthless hunk of land surrounded by people that want to exterminate them, and the price for this was only a huge chunk of their loved ones and their worldly possessions.
If they were truly that clever, they would have held out from someplace tropical where nobody was trying to kill them everyday. But I guess Miami was already full.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Trying to judge laws outlawing the Nazi party immediately after WW2 by todays standards is an exercise in ignorant arrogance in my opinion. I highly doubt it any of us contributing to this argument were there at the time, and none of us are in a position to judge the mindset.


i find this a ridiculous excuse. if this was the case the laws could have been modified/changed or stuck off, they haven't been and, in fact, new ones have been added, even in this century.

i also really disagree with your association of questioning the holocaust with anti-semitisim. you are creating a link which i don't believe is necessary. if every historian feels they will be labeled an antisemite for questioning the official line, obviously only antisemites will do so. your little cause and effect rant doesn't stack up.

churchill said “History will be kind to me for I intend to write it” and “History is written by the victors.”, clearly, the man was not opposed to liberalism with the facts. questioning the official line when officialdom is framing itself in those terms is hardly a worthless exercise.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 04:39 AM
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reply to post by BadgerJoe
 


Hi ATsers,
thanks for all of the responses so far! I appreciate your comments.
Just to reiterate on the original theme of this thread lets take a second look at the OP.
Paragraph 1) draws a comparison between the attempted Genocide of the Cambodian people (for the greater political good of China),at the hands of PolPot. This establishes the idea that Cambodians have not used Empathy as a control device to win favour with other nations to give them economic, and cultural autonomy; unlike mambers of the Judaism fraternity.
Paragraph 2) Draws attention to the fact that there are still many supporters of PolPot within Cambodia (even if only respectful support).
The point is: Show respect for Adolf Hitler and regime= be labled as anti-semite, nazi amd enemy of the west???
Yes there were great piles of belongings at Auschwitz, Belsen etc.
Yet there were other Non-Jews killed and held captive in these camps also.
HITLERS REGIME DID NOT SPECIFICALLY DESIRE TO CONQUER JEWS; THEY WERE A FRINGE BENEFIT, BUT NOT THE ULTIMATE!!!
jews were not the only ones killed by The Third Reich.
Again and again the west is made swallow these lies; while we watch the Israeli's get away with yet another breach upon Human Rights.
Pot calling the kettle Black to me!

The evidence is out there to speak the truth, those that speak the truth, or even voice an opinion are socially embarassed, have their careers destroyed and are deemed racist??? xenophobic or any other description of ridicule and impugn.

Rothchilds and the Capo's used in the camps were Jews also; so what say you



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