Denial Of The Holocaust

reply to post by D377MC


A lot of the posts in this thread appear to either argue for a complete denial of the holocaust or they don't quite zero in on a specific aspect that the posters disagree with or they have a hostility towards Jewish people in general. For the record I am not Jewish.

reply to post by amazing


as a matter of fact one doctor whom I work with occasionally is Jewish; and I am quite fond of her!!!
We often talk about topics such as this. One day in retort to something she had said I mentioned that "Jews were not a race but a religion".
her replie was; We are the semitic race!
This lady comes from Argentina; and as I found out a few weeks later ,her parents were converts!!??
she mentioned that I could convert as well.

Religion to me is about spirituality, not meerly being a member of a club.
I do not dislike Jews perse. It urks me however, that some people join a cause, as it gives them leverage. Not saying that she did.
I found it interesting though that having parents whom were converts is a gateway for being a member of a long extinct race.
Yes the Germans had a go, as did the Romans. I am not saying they didn't.
there are good and bd in every 'Race' or religion.
Its just that some religions have deception at the very core of their teachings. And then expect to go around at point the finger at everyone else when they err.

The people of my country(Germany) already admitted that we committed these crimes. And most of us are really still shocked that these crimes were possible. Nothing for the rest of the world to deny. That is like Germany denying Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened.
But after all it is not "only" about Germans killing Jews, it is about people killing minorities on a horrible large scale in a disgusting brutal way.
Instead of waisting your time denying things your country is not guilty of make sure it doesn`t happen to your country. Keep in mind that you could easily belong to the next minority identified as the biggest enemy.

[edit on 30-6-2009 by derpif]

reply to post by derpif


Yes it has happened here in Australia with the Aboriginal people.
It has only been since 2008 that Prime minister Kevin Rudd, had the Kahunas to say Sorry. Reconciliation will take time . So it has happened here.

reply to post by neformore

So you want to desecrate the memory of millions of dead to make a cheap political point about todays world?

Whos said anythng about desecrating the dead? It may be a cheap political point to you but it affects milliions of others down to the point of how objective history is conveyed. Now I really know what Ford said "All history is Bunk"!!!!
How dare you cheapen the deaths of millions to make a point, by saying that I am, (that can work both ways). You see there were many others that died. And again its fitting: someone in a position of responsibility!

I agree that the OP may have been unpalatable to some; there are many things I don't agree with that I see also. but if you think it all BS, why are you so upset?
You keep accusing me of having a Jewish problem, insinuations that I hate Jews??
I tell you now again I DO NOT HATE JEWS.

So put any spin, an twist it how you like ; it has been said. (Afew times now).

Now if we'd like to get back to the discussion........




And for our pondering......



The green light.

The people of my country(Germany) already admitted that we committed these crimes.

During which WW?

Originally posted by Dermo
I honestly cant see this thread lasting too long, or it going too long without you getting a lot of abuse

I also come from a country that suffered centuries of religious cleansing in order to wipe out Catholicism. The figures add anywhere up to 3.5 million depending on how you view certain incidents.

[edit on 27/6/09 by Dermo]

Yeah, my ancestors were in the Potato Famine ... I've heard that was an intentional holocaust of sorts by the English.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Hi ATSers,
whilst travelling to Cambodia last year, I was confronted with the realities of a nation that had been to Hell and yet, somehow managed to bounce back.
Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge had managed to exterminate much of Cambodia's inhabitants under the guise of revolution.
Mass Extermination/Graves. Atrocities. Dislocation and elimination of families. Torture.
The Camdodians are rather relunctant to talk about these things (apart from tour guides). the country is bustling and its occupants are polite, proud and admirable.
They have all the evidence needed to convince one of these past attrocities.
They have no laws for punishment of those whom still respect or indeed follow PolPot.

Camodia happened to Cambodia. They were all in it together. No one group or groups were specifically identified and had their civil rights removed, everyone did. This is an important distinction.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Not like Hitler.
Any mention of Hitler in a favorable light can bring a barrage of insult, insecurity and accusation of Anti-semitism.

Not true. I have been, on these boards accused of being, or words to the effect, a Hitler sympathiser, but never an anti-semite. I often speak favourably or at least sympathetically of Hitler and other members of the Nazi heirarchy.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Anti-Semitism??

With the great genocide 'Apparently' commited by Nazi's, why are there so many, if indeed not millions of Jewish peoples crying in the world every day.
Does not genocide mean systematic destruction; and if not fully accomplished wouldn't that infact be 'Attempted Genocide'- if we can even call it that.

Are you criticising the Nazis for being ineffective? Genocide is one word that is used to describe those events, it is not the only word. Simply put, you make a ridiculous point.

There is much misunderstanding about what does and does not constitute the 'holocaust' most of it, these days, derived from those who use the internet as an exclusive source, that and the 'occasional Jew' that you work with. Many, many, many academic studies have investigated and extrapolated on the 'traditional' and out-dated view of the holocaust and of the atrocities committed throughout the period spanning the two wars. Much of it is related and paints a much wider picture than that which is widely perceived.

Due to this gap in knowledge, the mass denial propagandists, are able to gain sympathy by playing to the lowest common denominator.

No one has been imprisoned for investigating the details of the holocaust. Hundreds of studies have been conducted, countless books. No one imprisoned. Zundel and his ilk have been imprisoned because they make unfounded allegations. They defame the holocaust. You can argue that an event should not be accorded the same rights as you, the individual, human being, and it should not be able to defend it's existence in a court of law, just as you are able to. I agree, but that is how the law stands. No one gets imprisoned for questioning whatever it is you think is 'The Holocaust'. No one whatsoever. They get imprisoned for, usually repeatedly, disseminating offensive literature which has absolutely no academic standing, it is therefore a fabrication. A fabrication intended to incite racial hatred. That is why they have been imprisoned or in any way penalised.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Most of the worlds Jews are converts anyway, unless they got away from genocide en-mass!
How convenient; I think I might convert next week.

Another completely ridiculous argument. What on earth do you base your reasoning on?

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
But dont deny the Holocaust.
You may just get thrown in Gaol, or have your career all but ruined- like Mel Gibson.

Mel Gibson hasn't ruined his career by claiming the holocaust didn't happen. Mel Gibson has made shed loads of money (of which his wife is about to get half) and can say just about what the frig he likes. Fair play to the man. I don't agree with him, but it's his life. Is he in prison? Did he get into trouble for saying the holocaust didn't happen or did he get into trouble for getting off his face and saying something a bit on the racist side?

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Sickening. Learn from the Cambodians. The rest of us whom had families involved and deceased within the great wars want to move on.
Why on Earth cant the Jewish community?
Oh I forgot- empathy is your tool.

More importantly, why can't you? Where are the threads entitled 'Hey I'm Jewish, feel sorry for me, there was a holocaust'? I don't see any.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Another completely ridiculous argument.

Well done kilgore trout!
You've just shown with your completely ridiculous self-righteous banter that it must not be that much of a ridiculous debate; otherwise you must be crazy to embark upon replying in such a lenghty post.
Anyway I glad you think that Hilter is cool; everyone to their own

I've been away from this thread for a few days but those of you who have read my posts know that I have recently learned that the 6 million figure for Jewish deaths was never based on hard evidence and a far more realistic figure is 1.5 million. As a Canadian of German descent, I'm only interested in the truth, whatever that may turn out to be and if the truth is that Nazis killed 1.5 million jews then that's what the German People have to acknowledge but they should not have to be vilified for 4.5 million deaths that did not happen.

Having said that, I've just come across some really astonishing new information that puts the whole Holocaust into a different perspective. Bare with me here. This link...

www.henrymakow.com...

talks about the incredible story of how Martin Borman, who was Hitler's right hand man(think Chief of Staff), who controlled all of the Nazi party finances and controlled direct access to Hitler, was actually a Soviet agent. Here is a quote that talks about a book called OPJB: The last great secret of the second world war.

Talk about the hiding in plain sight! The evidence that the man most responsible for the holocaust was a British agent has been on bookshelves since 1996. The book includes a 1963 letter from Ian Fleming confirming that he and Creighton led the Bormann rescue. It also includes a photograph of a 1954 letter from Winston Churchill giving Creighton permission to tell this story after Churchill's death, "omitting of course those matters which you know can never be revealed."

Now if you're confused about Borman being both a british AND a soviet agent, here's the answer. Borman really worked for the Rothschild-controlled British Intelligence community and they ordered him to pass information to the Soviets. So the Soviets thought Borman worked for them.
Here are more quotes.

Bormann had been an Illuminati British agent all along and was largely responsible for the Nazi defeat. In fact, World War Two was a monstrous Rothschild fraud on Germans, Jews and the human race. The plunder ended up in Illuminati hands.

Martin Bormann, was a "Soviet" (i.e. Illuminati) agent who ensured the destruction of both Germany and European Jewry. Thus, he advanced two of the Illuminati's main goals: integrate Germany into a world government by annihilating its national, cultural and racial pretensions, and establish Israel as the Masonic banker's world capital by threatening European Jews with extermination.

In 1972 Gen. Reinhard Gehlen (head of Wehrmacht Soviet Intelligence) revealed that Bormann had been a Soviet spy, a view shared by many top Nazi generals and officials including Gottlob Berger, a SS Lieutenant General who knew Bormann well. "Bormann did the greatest harm of anyone," Berger testified at Nuremberg. (McGovern, 181) The implications are staggering. Remember what Winston Churchill said. "This war is not against Hitler or National Socialism but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest." (Emrys Hughes, Winston Churchill, His Career in War and Peace p. 145)

Borman used the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad as an excuse to begin the extermination of Jews, the second Illuminati goal. In the words of the Nuremberg prosecutor, Bormann was a "prime mover in the program of starvation, degradation, spoliation and extermination." He shielded Hitler from the grisly details, forbidding Himmler from discussing the subject with Hitler and filing Himmler's reports. (261)

So if this is true, what does it mean? Does it expiate the guilt of those who carried out Borman's orders regarding the treatment of jews AND OTHERS in the concentration camps? No, clearly not. But if in fact, Hitler and his Nazis were manipulated into a war, which was then sabotaged from within to ensure Germany's defeat and also exploited by Borman to terrorize jews with the Nazis and the German People taking the blame, then we really have a situation which is akin to person A hiring a hitman to kill person B. Yes the hitman is guilty of murder but under the law, so is person A.

One final comment. Holding a entire population responsible for the crimes and atrocities committed by a powerful minority, does not seem fair to me. It's not fair to blame the Cambodians for Pol Pot's crimes. It's not fair to blame the Russian people for Stalin's crimes and it shouldn't be fair to blame the German people for Nazi crimes. Germany was just as much a victim in the end, of the Nazis' lust for power as any other people.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


"Most of the worlds Jews are converts anyway, unless they got away from genocide en-mass!"

Please provide evidence that most of the worlds Jews are converts! Most of the Jews during the time of Hitler were killed, the ones that survived and had children are the ones that make up most of the worlds Jews today. If you didn't know, Jews don't actively seek to convert people like other religions do. To become a Jew by orthodox standards is incredibly difficult and takes a lot of time, even by conservative and reform standards it takes a good amount of work.

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by fritz I have the BNP's Manifesto booklet in colour.

Forgive the slght OT detour...but that has got to be the funniest freudian slip I've heard in a long while

I may be guilty of many things and may be found wanting in other things but my friend, one thing I can honestly say, is that I have never been guilty of slips.

Freudian or otherwise!

Originally posted by Studenofhistory

Borman used the Nazi defeat at Stalingrad as an excuse to begin the extermination of Jews, the second Illuminati goal. In the words of the Nuremberg prosecutor, Bormann was a "prime mover in the program of starvation, degradation, spoliation and extermination." He shielded Hitler from the grisly details, forbidding Himmler from discussing the subject with Hitler and filing Himmler's reports. (261)

Henry Makow PhD (in English Literature I believe), takes a few quotes and sources and ignores other great swathes of information to get the round peg to fit into a square hole. But that is not to say that there isn't some truth in what he says, just that you should apply a little discernment.

The truth here is that it is possible that Bormann worked for British or Soviet or some other intelligence network and that there is some, though mostly heresay, evidence to suggest that. The rest though is pretty much baloney or taken drastically out of context.

The Battle of Stalingrad took place between 17 July 1942 and 2 February 1943. The meeting at Wannsee to discuss the Final Solution to the Jewish Question took place on 20 January 1942, though the meeting had been rescheduled from October, and planning began as early as late August 1941 with orders distributed in the second week of October. When the planning for both Barbarrossa and the Final Solution was taking place Rudolf Hess held the positions of Deputy Leader and Private Secretary to Hitler that Bormann would fill when Hess flew to Scotland on 10 May 1941.

It was Churchill's policy to encourage Hitler to engage Russia in war, however, according to most accounts written by those who surrounded Hitler in those days he was not on close terms with Bormann and did not spend time with him. When Barbarrossa was launched on 22 June 1941, Hitler was soon ensconced in the Wolf's Lair in East Prussia and he handed over the running of all domestic matters to a Council of Three comprised of Bormann, Lammers and Keitel. As the removal of the Reich Jews was a domestic matter it is likely that Bormann acted on Hitler's behalf in those matters. However, he would not have done so in the occupied territories and the war zone. The mass killings and atrocities committed in Russia by the Waffen-SS and the Wehrmacht would have been reported directly to Hitler at the Wolf's Lair by those military commanders. Hitler had requested detailed reports of the Einsatzgruppen to be transmitted directly to Berlin. It can be presumed that in Hitler's absence that these would have been seen by Bormann. It is as likely though that the reports were also sent in duplicate to the Lair.

What Bormann and Himmler appear to have conspired to do is conceal the murder of the German Jews from Hitler. Up until October 1941 the Jews of Germany,though suffering as a result of the removal of their rights under law had not been forced into ghettos, most had been able to continue to live in their own homes, abliet without rights of ownership.

By spring 1941 there was an increase in complaints as to why the Jews were still there, hadn't the Nazis promised that the Jews would be removed from the Reich? Every effort was exerted to make the Jews go away, those that could afford to went, those that felt the trouble would pass stayed a little longer, those with no means to escape were stuck. No one could or would take the Jews off the Germans hands. With all means exhausted and a new war to fund, the Jews had to go. Hitler constantly procrastinated, he hated to make decisions, and he worried about the morale of the people if the Jews were 'removed'. At Wannsee most of the hour and half of the meeting was taken up discussing whether the halbejuden and mischling should be included in the deportations. This was Hitler's greatest concern. His mentor, Professor Karl Haushofer was married to a half-Jew. How would people like her feel when half of her family was deported to the East? This is what Hitler procrastinated about. It is probably that Hitler thought that the deportation were just deportations, just like most of Germany preferred to believe that, and most of the western world for that matter.

So, Hitler may not have known about Aktion Reinhard and the Death Camps, but he certainly knew about the action of the Einsatzgruppen, and he definately knew about the genocide of the Polish Slavs.

Bormann was not in a position at the time of the atrocities committed in Poland to be involved in their planning or in sheilding Hitler from those activities. He was not able to prevent Hitler from hearing reports of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, the Waffen-SS or the Wehrmacht, all of whom participated in mass killings.

Bormann did though supply the Soviets with the German Order of battle during periods of Barbarrossa, ostensibly, as part of a funkspiel operation to find out who else was providing that information to the Soviets. The person who was doing that was a spy called 'Werther', theoretically. Louis Kilzer (pulitzer Prize winning writer no less) claims in his book, 'Hitler's Traitor', that Bormann was Werther. It is unlikely though in my opinion and Kilzer completely ignores not only the possille role of Ultra but it seems it's existence altogether. He makes no mention, which is ludicrous for a journalist of his calibre.

reply to post by Studenofhistory


Excellent post!!!
Thanks for the info. I am always fascinated in a new angle; which your reference to this book has pointed out to me.
I particularly enjoyed the part mentioning the Rothchilds.
I have mentioned this in the past in other threads of this nature (trying to uncover conspiracy from the enigmas of the 1st & 2nd WW's to the present); it was amazing the opposition encountered when mentioning this sort of thing. yet gratifying to see that someone else sees the screen
Lets see the ridicule of this now........

Lmao I can't believe there is some people in this thread who say stuff like "hitler had some good qualities" and all kinda crap. Are you people idiots? That disgusts me. What good qualities did hitler have? lol

And yes the holocaust happened, I have people in my moms side of the family who are survivors of it. And I doudt they are lieing to get peoples sympathy, most of them are like 80 years old and could care less about peoples sympathy.

I saw someone say there are only like 500 holocaust surivors still alive, thats retarded. Just in my family on my moms side there are 5 people who are holocaust survivors and all of them are alive. I'm willing to bet that each of them probably knows about 50 other people personally who are living survivors too.

You freaking idiots, the jews where NOT put into these camps for their own protection and safety. Where the hell do you guys get these ideas? The stories I've heard from people in my family sure as hell do not sound like they were put in camps for their own "safety" thats the stupidest thing I ever heard...

To you people that say this stuff are you saying my grandmother and my aunts and uncles and all of their friends and the THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of other living survivors are lying? If you are insinuating they are lying, you people SICKEN ME. What reason would they even have to lie, they havent gained anything from this lol.

All you people who say this stuff I'm willing to bet you living a perfect little priveldged life and have had everything given to you and you probably haven't even had to go through ONE SINGLE bad thing in all of life. You people are just the same as the idiots who hate black people and say stuff like "I could live in the ghetto no problem" and idiotic things like that.

But whatever I'm sure you guys know more than people who ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH ALL THAT.

I do think some of the numbers of the people who died are "exagerated" but its pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to figure out exactly how much people died, so they make estimates.

I think what this really boils down too is most of you are conspiracy nuts and you don't like jews because you think they control the media or some crap.

And yes hitler was a hateful man and hated lots of groups of people but he did hate and target the jews the most, thats fact.

I can't believe some people in this day and age still support hitler, a lot you don't say it exactly but I can tell by the stuff you type you don't even have any problem with hitler. You same people who say this stuff complain about the new world order and police states and stuff. idiots.

If all this comes down to you guys just not liking the jews "complaining", well get the hell over it. People of EVERY RELIGION AND RACE in this world are CONSTANTLY complaining about things that happened in the past. Its not just the jews and the blacks.

The holocaust is VERY REAL and did happen.

Edit: I just can't believe some idiot said all jews were put into concentration camps for their own safety, GOD THAT IS SO STUPID! Where do you get your info ? lol I thought most people on this site where open minded good people, I see a lot of PURE EVIL VILE people on here though, its disgusting.



[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Edit:Removed my comments

blah nevermind so much stupidity and ignorance in this thread I don't even want to comment anymore

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
reply to post by derpif

 

Even if there weren`t gas chambers and all the people died of malnutrition and diseases I would call that mass extermination.
And even if the numbers were horribly wrong and instead of6.000.000 people 3.000.000 people died I would still call it holocaust.
To me holocaust don`t have to involve gas chambers and at least 5.999.999 deaths.

It obviously wasnt a holocaust or genocide since there are a very large amount of jewish peoples these days. Im not saying it wasnt wrong to kill innocent people or anything like that but i do believe the numbers are false and i do think that its been overblown and still is very much.

You also have to remember that many of the jewish families that "dissapeared" during the war werent nescessarily killed. Many of the more influential and wealthy families were allowed to adopt German names and become citizens of Germany for a price. Many renounced their beliefs so they would not be killed and many others fled the country, many of whom never told their families and never seen them again and were thought to be killed.

I also do not agree that the jews should have sole rights to the term holocaust. I also do not agree that it should be a criminal offence to state your opinions on whether or not you think jews were killed. I do not understand why in society we can give our opinions on a number of things such as saying anti government type things or saying that people from a certain country are a bunch of idiots but question the jews and its curtains for you.

Seriously there are only a handful of people alive today that lived through the holocaust, weve made sure that the deeds didnt go unpunished, the Germans are still ridiculed and called Nazis and monsters to this very day (which isnt fair), and weve also made sure that the jews wont be harmed again. So whats the big deal? Get on with your lives, stop whining about something that happed over 60 years ago and if somebody has an opinion about a past historical event its not a big deal, just do what we all do and live with it.

Really theres just a handfull of living survivors? Is that why I have 5 JUST IN MY FAMILY (most of them were kids and teenagers in the 40s) and I'm willing to bet those 5 probably know a bunch of others and those others probably know a bunch more. There is MUCH MUCH MUCH more than a "handful" of survivors living. When I think of a "handful"i think of like 20 or something. There are more like thousands upon thousands of living survivors, not a freaking "handful" lol.

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

Please, provide examples of:

I dont have to provide anything to you. Go read a book and quit being lazy. Take your hate and anger somewhere else.

I never once said i was happy anyone died. Im just saying that we as a society, and jews, for people to stop being annoyed with it, need to get over it. Period.

[edit on 09/6/27 by metaldemon2000]

This proves to everyone that those "facts" that you stated are just made up. Because you can't provide ONE SINGLE SOURCE for them. Generally when people say outlandish things they provide some kind of source to back up what they are saying...

Also you guys say stuff like "the jews need to get over it"... what does that even mean? I donno what kinda experience you have with jews but my moms side of the family is jewish (I'm not jewish, I hate all religion) and NONE OF THEM ever talk about or complain about the holocaust. The living survivors in her side of the family never talk about it or bring it up either, unless one of us is asking them about it or something.

And who cares if the living survivors want to complain about something anyways, they went through HELL they got the right to complain...

I'm willing to bet you've never even broken you arm, what do you know about hell or pain.

Thank you, move along.

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

Blah nevermind again... sorry mods! Please delete this if possible... all the misinfo and ignorance in this thread is making me sick and getting me riled up. I don't even wanna get into arguments with these people though you can't argue with these "holocaust deniers", there is just no talking sense to them

They are just full of hate and arent open to hearing other peoples opionons or ideas or the FACTS about what happened.

It just boggles my mind that people can say the holocaust was a "hoax" and most these people get their information from people who WERENT EVEN ALIVE BACK THEN.

Are you people telling me that the 5 survivors in my moms side of the family are lying about what happened? For what reason? Why would they lie to their own family members? lol you people make no sense.

You guys post "proof" and that "proof" is some rediculous youtube video of some guy who wasnt even alive back then saying it didnt happen. Idiots.
[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]

[edit on 4-7-2009 by jeasahtheseer]