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Denial Of The Holocaust

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reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:11 PM by fritz

In late 1940, my Aunt Joan was a novice nun who, because of the occupation of France, was not able to take her vows in a nunnery [?] just outside Paris.

At the tender age of 17, she was a simple runner, taking verbal notes between resistence groups.

Just before her 18th birthday, her group was betrayed by a 'loyal and brave Frenchman'.

Taken to Cinqe Avenue Foch, the Gestapo HQ, she was repeatedly raped, tortured and beaten.

Transferred to Ravensbruck, my aunt only survived because she was transferred to Bergen-Belsen 'as a possible foreigner' whilst her records were checked through the Red Cross.

She, along with fourty thousand fellow prisoners, were liberated by the British Army in April 1945, between 11-14th.

My personal family history notwithstanding, the Holocaust does not only remember the 4.5 million jews who were murdered.

It also remembers the 1.5 million Polish and Russian POWs; the foreign political prisoners who were either shot out of hand or gassed in motor coaches.

Also remembered are the half million or so Romany Gypsies, travellers and other socially or politically undesirable opponents of the Nazies.

The holocaust also remembers those victims who were ordained under various religeous orders.

The Nazis had no room for them so they systematically set about erasing them and their history from the face of the earth, starting with those living in Germany. They were exterminated first.

For those posters who say that some of the people who claim to be Holocaust Survivors are lying, well yes, they could be.

On the other hand, it is possible, just possible that they could have been 3 or 4 year olds on the very last transports to the Death Camps.

We don't know. We weren't there.

For other posters who claim that the creation of the State of Israel was due to the Holocaust, nothing could be further from the truth.

The State of Israel came in to being to aswage the guilt felt by the UK, the USA and other countries, when they refused to accept as refugees, Jews expelled from Europe under Goering's resettlement programmes.

As for the idiots who tell the Jews to stop bleating and 'get over it', it is just as well that they do bleat now and again.

Least we forget the terrible happenings in the Death and Concentration Camps of Europe, the Middle and Far East; the World War that saw more than 50 million souls lost between 1937 and 1945 - both service personnel and innocent civilians.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:31 PM by ufonautradio

reply to post by neformore

Perfectly said which is why this is post still being up is a disgrace. A group of antisemitic people found a home on ATS. Congrats ATS well done!

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:40 PM by Studenofhistory

reply to post by Kandinsky

Arguing over numbers is NOT redundant! What happened to jews and to non-jews who were sent to concentration camps is too important to trivialize by saying the numbers don't matter. An issue this serious demands the truth and if the truth isn't what some unsubstantiated claims made at the end of the war, then the record should be set straight. If you don't want to read the evidence from the links I supplied, that make a convincing case that the real number is nowhere close to 6 million then at least have the guts to say so in your post so that everyone else can see how uninformed you are. What I found very convincing was the multiple references to statements made by jewish journalists, authors, historians and organizations that cite MUCH LOWER numbers for jewish deaths by the Nazis. Are you saying that they are wrong, ignorant and anti-semitic too?

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:41 PM by BadgerJoe

Every time I see a thread about Holocaust denial and read the "explanations" about why the death count is this or that, or the means of death couldn't have been done, I keep thinking one thing.

The Nazis rounded them up and worked or starved them to death, in a manner designed to maximize their labors to benefit to the Reich.
They rounded up however many there were, of all nationalities and persuasions, and you can be sure that the Nazis were not giving them an all expenses paid vacation in a tropical land. There was only one thing on the Nazis mind and that was death to all those they rounded up, by either working them to death, starving them to death or flat out killing them.
So even if the "math" can't support whatever numbers were killed by whatever methods, the fact remains that the Nazis gathered these people up so they could be disposed of, in whatever manner.

And for the record, I do think that the holocaust occurred, and probably pretty much the way it was recorded.

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reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:46 PM by fapython

A )ewish person who proves the holocaust is a hoax

YouTube Link

And )ust for the record, The state of Israel was founded out of )ewish terrorism on the british and palestinians.
And then we also have to ask ourselves, if the victors of the war were representing humanity nd trying to get rid of evil, then why did they allow a few million germans to starve after the war, and why did they allow the russians and americans to rape over 2 million women children and old ladies continuously for weeks. there were more rapes in 1 german town i a week, then there was rapes commited by the german military in the whole war world wide.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 08:52 PM by Studenofhistory

I'd be very interested in watching the videos you tried to post but the links aren't working. Try again.

[edit on 27-6-2009 by Studenofhistory]

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 09:01 PM by fapython

damn, look up 'david cole' in youtube if the links aren't working.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 09:03 PM by Studenofhistory

Another quote from the radio islam article.

The Germans had an extraordinary propensity for recording everything on paper in the most careful detail, yet among the thousands of captured documents of the S.D. and Gestapo, the records of the Reich Security Head Office, the files of Himmler's headquarters and Hitler's own war directives there is not a single order for the extermination of Jews or anyone else. It will be seen later that this has, in fact, been admitted by the World Centre of Contemporary Jewish Documentation at Tel-Aviv.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 09:28 PM by Studenofhistory

I'm watching the David Cole videos. Very informative stuff. Does he mention the fact that the official plaque at Auschwitz says that 1.5 million jews died there instead of the original claim of 4 million?

I just found the section of the video which answers my question and in fact the official death toll at Auschwitz is 1.1 million.

[edit on 27-6-2009 by Studenofhistory]

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 09:47 PM by trace_the_truth

The Jewish genocide thing is interesting...

Nations wage war on other nations.

Hitler waged war on a race of people.

... then, the race of people that Hitler waged war on created their own nation.

Would Hitler have been painted in a different light if Israel had already existed, and he invaded it to kill everyone inside?

Or would they still say it was genocide?

If you wage war with that nation, is it Genocide? If you kill everyone in a nation, what is it called?

Say, for instance, that the majority of Israel's military is Jewish. If you kill them all in the battle field, is it attempted genocide?

Further, military service is Isreal is mandatory for all non-arabs. There are about 90% Jew in Israel, so surely an attack on Israel is anti-semitic. Furthermore, if the entire government of Israel is Jewish, the what is it called if you criticize them?

You're killing Jews and criticizing Jews either way.

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reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:07 PM by fearless leader

Whoever started this thread is the most despicable human being ever to grace the internet with its presence. You should help yourself to a history book before even comparing the Nazis to Pol Pot. About 2 million people died in Cambodia as a result of Pol Pot. Over 12 MILLION civilians were systematically murdered, gassed, burned alive, and shot in concentration camps by the SS, and almost 6 million of them were jews. The jews were almost completely anniholated in Europe, not to mention all the other groups nazis deemed "inferior". To suggest anything otherwise is unthinkable, and shows total ignorance on your part. My only wish is that you were alive in Europe during world war II so the nazis could drag you away with your entire family and then execute all of you in a ditch somewhere, but not before they starved you and expirimented on you. People like you make me want to vomit. Do the world a favor and drop dead.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:11 PM by walsbg22

Guys, can you tell me when Jews have used the holocaust for sympathy or to get something. I'd like a video or quote from good source because I've never seen this used.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:20 PM by Skelkie3

Originally posted by neformore

reply to post by Skelkie3

Well thank you for your critique of my post.

If you'd read the next link I provided, you would have seen that I went on and produced a more conservative estimate. But no. You didn't.

Why?

Because it didn't suit your argument. Thats life I guess.

Fair enough.

WHen you get down to it, to brass tacks as they say where I come from, heres what it all boils down to.

The Nazi's exterminated, using industrial killing methods, millions of people. I don't know the exact number. Neither do you. I suspect no one will ever really know it.

I do know this.

No one denies the deaths of the homosexuals
No one denies the deaths of the romanies
No one denies the deaths of the mentally handicapped and infirm
No one denies the deaths of the poles
No one denies the deaths of the russian prisoners of war

People only deny the deaths of the jews.

They question the numbers, they say it was "exaggerated". Some claim the whole thing was a hoax. The single, consistent point and argument presented is always linked to the jews.

Not to anyone else. Just to the jews.

No one questions the amount of dead allied soldiers and civilians in WW2.
No one questions the amount dead axis soldiers and civilians in WW2.
No one argues that the methods of recording those deaths is flawed.

The only time things are supposedly innacurate is when it comes to the figures relating to jews.

No one argues the historical events of D-Day.
No one argues the events of the Battle of Britain.
No one argues about the events of Stalingrad.
No one argues about the events in North Africa.

Witness testimony, allied reports, survior reports, they're all fine for those things.

And yet when it comes to the reports about the camp liberation, when it comes to the reports from the survivors, when it comes to the testimony of soldiers who had fought all the way across Europe and experienced the absolute horrors of war, only to find that what they thought was the absolute base barbarity of humanity could sink to even deeper depths - those reports are unreliable. They aren't true. They are exaggerated. The Nazi's own records, the confessions of the guards at the camps, all apparently seem to be considered lies.

Why? Why is everything else ok, but mention the holocaust and suddenly every accepted method of evidence gathering is wrong?

Can you answer that without using the word jew?

Yes it's true that of the several numerical options you present as ' fact ' I didn't get beyond the second. I apologize for my shallowness.
I wish I could say that I don't care how many or what number - but, these numbers represent people who are gone and over with prematurely.
This is particularly sad for me because I am an Athiest , and I don't believe these people are hanging out beyond the pearly gates with their loved ones... they're just gone.
How dare anyone do this to one or six million or sixteen million people ?

But, I believe that these shrines in our hearts and in the cemetaries are lessened when they have the wrong names on them, or improper info in general.

There are controversies surrounding atrocities in too many places where a bunch of nuts think that others are somehow cheaper than themselves.

One group that consistantly expresses this belief through word and action are among us now ! And the reason that these discussions are usually controversial, is that we all see this WRONG but most have been programmed to ignore it or at least overlook it. It's a natural for conflict.
People will struggle to wake up, and fight to go back to sleep, I guess.

A question still bothers me, and no one will ever answer unless they hate the people we are discussing : why do people hate them so ?

And why would the people who were ( arguably ) the most logical people in history, do these terrible things ?

[edit on 27/6/09 by neformore]

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:41 PM by DarkStormCrow

The Holocaust Denial industry is one of those things that make me feel like I am living in Bizarro world its like up is down and down is up. I have found that Holocaust Deniers fall into to three main catagories.

1. Judeophobes (I dont use the term anti Semite as there folks other than Jewish that are Semites)(KKK and certain so called christians)

2. Naziphiles (Who for some reason seem to think the Nazi Third Reich is a good thing and seek to rehabilitate Adolph Hitler and his Ilk in the eyes of the world)(StormFront and various Neo Nazi groups)
3. Activist Moslem Leaders (Who use Holocaust denial to rally thier people against Israel.) (Ahmadinejad and the Muslim Brotherhood.)

As someone who has actually walked the grounds at Dachau and seen the ovens,lampshades made of human skin and clothing made of human hair I have to seriously question the sanity of those involved in the denial of this immense human tragedy. While Dachau wasnt a Jewish Death Camp it was the prototype that the Nazi used in constructing other camps, Dachau was a camp that housed resistance fighters , clergy, homosexuals and other enemies of the Reich, While I would never be one to take away from some one the ability to Deny the Holocaust as I am a firm believer in free speech and thought, Truthfully by letting the Denier speak and write thier revised histories they expose themselves for the frauds and haters that they are and it is a good thing that right minded people can see them.

Previously in this thread it has been stated that there were only 6 million Jewish folks in Europe in 1939. This can be proven false by picking up any world almanac of the time period in question. Even the Nazis who were meticulous in thier record keeping put the number at 11 million in Nazi Occupied territory in 1942. You can see this by the minutes of the Wannsee Conference held in 1942. Most sources will place the numbers of the European Jeish population at 9.5-10 million.

The Wannsee Conference

The Holocaust

In 1950 there were approximately 3.5-4 million Jewish folks in remaining in Europe. So where did these Jewish folks go to?. To use Nazi terminolgy they were evacuated , used as slave labor , gassed , shot and buried in mass graves or burned in crematoria. Read your history speak to survivors and to the soldiers that liberated these camps. Also now you can look through 50 million pages of Nazi documents that were opened to the public in 2006.

Revisiting The Horrors Of The Holocaust

Germany Agrees to Open Holocaust Archive

One of the tactics used by the Holocaust Denier is the fact that more folks of other groups were killed by the Nazis, they will freely admit that the Nazis killed over 11 million Slavics, Gypsies, Communists, Witches , Mason, Astrologers, Homosexuals , Clergy and many others. The only number they will ever call into questions is the figure of 6 million Jewish folks. To deny an anti Jewish agenda on the part of the Holocaust denier is to be part of the insanty ourselves.

If someone denied that African Americans were slaves in the United States would we take this person seriously?

If someone denied the Bataan Death March took place or the Rape of Nanking took place would we take them seriously.

Would we deny that European colonialism in the New World resulted in the Death of between 10 million and 20 million Native Americans on 2 continents?

If you want to oppose the policies of the Israeli Government then oppose them based on the merits, do not bring the Holocaust into it, you have lost the arguement against the Israeli government as soon as a denial of the Holocaust comes into play.

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:43 PM by Studenofhistory

The David Cole videos are amazing. He very clearly disproves with unassailable facts AND pictures, that the allegations of systematic murder of jews by gassing at Auschwitz is not true. The so-called gas chamber, that is supposedly in original condition, has been heavily modified by the soviets after the war. That the Zyklon B gas supposedly used to gas jews was actually used for delousing clothes, people and buildings to combat typhus epidemic. That the soviets consistently exaggerated or made up allegations and evidence after the war to convict nazi war criminals. Since Auschwitz was supposed to have killed 4 million out of the total of 6 million jews and now the official death toll at Auschwitz is now 1.1 million, not only does that bring the alleged total down from 6 million to 3.1 million but as David Cole points out, if the soviets exaggerated the auschwitz total by almost a factor of four, why should their claims for the other concentration camps in Germany and eastern europe be accepted as factual? If the exaggeration factor of (almost) 4 times were applied to come up with the whole 6 million, then we're down to 1.65 million which is very close to the number that you get when you carefully look at the millions of jews who either left Europe BEFORE the nazis supposedly started killing millions of jews or were evacuated from eastern Europe and the western part of Russia by the Russians themselves before those areas were overrun by the German army. The emigration and evacuation numbers are confirmed by either jewish sources themselves or by official russian records. So the fact that there aren't a lot of jews left in western Europe does not automatically mean that they were killed.

What I found astonishing, is that Cole cites a book written by an American army officer who was on Eisenhower's staff, which says that Eisenhower's hatred for Germans resulted in the deaths of over 1 million German prisoners of war AFTER the war was over, due to a deliberate policy of neglect resulting in disease and malnutrition.

Cole's laudible quest for the real truth makes it very clear that people did die at Auschwitz but not by gassing and not in the numbers typically cited.

[edit on 27-6-2009 by Studenofhistory]

reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 10:52 PM by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

***shakes heads in disbelief and disgust***

One one hand, the often paranoid, aggressive, and often outright criminal behavior of sections of the Israeli government irritate and enrage me to no end. Yet when I read some of the crap I've read on this thread, I'm nearly tempted to say "well, maybe they have reason to be".

The same people that moan about and oppose the very existence of Israel often also moan about Jews worldwide in their countries, and often possess the same mentality that made the extermination of so many possible. They complain about the Jews, so when the Jews are finally given a chunk of land to colonize and get them out of everyone's hair, they continue to attack them.

Listening to crap like this reminds me just why something like the state of Israel had to be created. It was apparent that Jews really weren't safe anywhere. The Holocaust was but one part of centuries of persecution and abuse. Just about every country in Europe that they lived had turned on them in a big way at some point, often several times, in their history.

No one wanted the Jews. They had to go somewhere. Now people bitch about where they get sen to? get real. I highly doubt that many who claim to support the Palestinians really give a rats rear end about the Palestinians in the first place. It's just an excuse to attack Jews. If not Israel, then just where in the world would you people suggest that the Jews make as a homeland?

The Jews just can't win, can they? No wonder there is an element of distrust and paranoia amongst certain sectors of their population. If I was Jewish, I don't know if I'd trust anyone who was a gentile.

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reply posted on 27-6-2009 @ 11:09 PM by Sheeper

I'm curious as to why/how this thread got put up on the front page so quick, there were only a few posts in it and it got thrown onto the front page as fuel for the fire. I just find these deniers/haters to be sick and I believe at one point or another you will have to pay for what you say and do in life. Why argue over numbers anyway, you need to have more sympathy to them as a people.

reply posted on 28-6-2009 @ 12:11 AM by asmall89

So, OP do you deny the other atrocities the Nazi's committed? Like starting the largest War this World has ever seen? The death of millions of people through warfare, on a war that in itself was started for imperialist reasons?
The Holocaust was not a hoax, I guarantee that. That wasn't the only time Jews have been treated unfairly. The Czars chased them out of Russia and Poland in the late 19th century. I should know, part of my family came here during that time, deathly afraid of the Czars for some reason... Were they Jewish? That remains a family mystery.

Whether it was 4 million or 2 million, does not change the fact that such atrocities against the Jewish people (and others) occurred. How do explain Anne Frank's story hm?

Oh yeah just because the reported death tolls at Auschwitz were only 1.1 million, does not mean that was the only camp where Jews were killed, there were loads of camps, read some history why don't you.

I cannot believe this debate still goes on to this day. There were pictures, documents, stories (even people who weren't Jewish!), and all the missing people, heh kind of hard to explain that. I know this is a conspiracy site and it's popular to question the stories we're given, but come on, I think we can trust the history books on this one.

reply posted on 28-6-2009 @ 02:29 AM by zorgon

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
The Zionist movement has been defunct for ages. Yet people keep using that word as another way to blame the Jews for political upheaval.

Really?

I try to not get into these threads but sometimes some of the statements made just get to me...

So in this video do I hear the words "Genocide in Gaza"? And WHO is it that is protesting and calling out against this 'defunct' Zionism?

Rabbi Feldman: Zionism is "Illegitimate Political Movement"

YouTube Link

Now who is using that word to blame Jews for political upheaval?

Anti-Zionist Jewish Protestors are attacked by an AIPAC conference attendee

YouTube Link

Free Palestine: Zionist Jews killing Orthodox Jews

YouTube Link

How do you explain this in your "Zionism is defunct'

[edit on 28-6-2009 by zorgon]

reply posted on 28-6-2009 @ 02:45 AM by THX-1138

You are on to something here.

Once again, the smoke draws attention to the fire.

One can say "the Vietnam war never happened" and people will just be like OooooKayyyyy. Move on. He's loopy. Whateva.

But if you say "the German Jewish Holocaust didn't go down like they say it did" then people call the newspaper reporters and set your house on fire. Then they tell the Police that you raped little boys and ate your grandmother's corpse.