Denial Of The Holocaust

reply to post by D377MC


Well I recall earlier that it was implied I was a jerk for drawing any comparison of the attempted genocide of the Cambodians with the Jews.
The substance of this comparison is to show how the cambodians have moved on in life, and their goal has been to rebuild their country.

On the other hand constant lament about how they were treated throughout history, has interestingly been a political tool to 'fly-under -the radar' with their own human rights abuse.

If I stated that I stood on one of the 'Killing fields' saw the monument of Skulls, visited Tuol Sleng (S21); is that any different than standing in front of the ovens of Auschwitz Crematoria, and seeing the obvious previous bloodshed? I think not.

The question is; why use this tool of empathy, 50+ years after the event: Answer the question ( not aimed at you D377MC). there is a political agenda.

Anything that has so much hype and mystery has an element of crap.

The holocaust happened. Period. To all of the deniers on this thread. Get over it. What is your real agenda? Are you arguing about the numbers killed...even a million is too many. Are you arguing because you think Germany got a raw deal? Please! Are you arguing because you think the holocaust is more attention grabbing then the equally appalling tragedies in rawanda, Cambodia, and on and on and on? Or do you just not like Jewish people?

The question really shouldn't be why do we make a big deal out of the holocaust, but why don't we make as big a deal out of every genocide. A tragedy where millions die at the hands of evil should be exposed, remembered and kept in the forefront of our consciousness.

Posting because a genocide was exposed and you don't like it is disturbing. It's like saying you feel sorry for a serial killer because he got caught and you are arguing the he be let free because you think the body count is too high even though it proven beyond a doubt that he killed people.

Deny ignorance i say, but do not deny the holocaust because doing so is showing true ignorance indeed.

One Murder is Equal to the Killing the Whole of Humanity.

Let me take issue with your post.

Are you arguing about the numbers killed...even a million is too many.

Let me quote from GERMAR RUDOLF, LECTURES ON THE HOLOCAUST as to why that argument is problematic.

If the number of victims did not matter, there would be no reason for making it a taboo or even go so far as to protect it by laws, as it happens in several European nations. Apparently, there is more behind this figure of six million than just the sum of the individual fates of the people involved. It has become a symbol which must not be abandoned, because any justified doubts about this number would quickly lead to more undesirable questions into other aspects of the Holocaust. It is absolutely dumbfounding that, on the one hand, anyone who questions this figure of 6 million victims is made an intellectual outcast or will even suffer legal persecution, whereas, on the other hand, whenever valid arguments against this figure are raised, society and even judges will sound a retreat, claiming that precise figures are not the point and insisting on the criminal character of even a single victim. Is this figure of six million a legal yardstick or is it of no importance? It cannot be both.

Of course, one person is one person too many. But can you see why this argument cannot be used to dismiss controversy about exact figures?

[edit on 29-6-2009 by D377MC]

reply to post by amazing


See this is the thing:

What is your real agenda?

The agend was to show how Pro-Holocaust people get all hot under the collar, when views contrary to the beliefs are expressed. You are showing this very well, thanks.

The question really shouldn't be why do we make a big deal out of the holocaust, but why don't we make as big a deal out of every genocide.

Here you are dead on the ball! Never a more truthful statement.
If only it could be this way- which brings us back to the purpose of the thread.
Why is this particular example of Genocide endlessly recapitulated?
It is a political tool.

It's like saying you feel sorry for a serial killer because he got caught and you are arguing the he be let free because you think the body count is too high even though it proven beyond a doubt that he killed people.

Ahhh yes; which makes me think of the Catholic Church's various inquistions!

The world is full of questionable behaviour, by the fraternities we are duped into trusting the most.

Lets go a little further:

An analysis of the proceedings of the Nuremberg Tribunal tells us that the figure of six million Jewish victims was based neither on statistical evidence from census data nor on the results of an investigation into the material evidence connected to the crimes, but merely on hear-say statements given by two German SS-bureaucrats. One of these statements, given by Wilhelm Höttl was produced only in writing; the other, coming from Dieter Wisliceny was given by the witness in court. However, Wisliceny was never cross-examined. Both witnesses assert to have heard the figure of six million mentioned by Adolf Eichmann, but the latter denied this during his own trial at Jerusalem in 1961. In a monograph on the Nuremberg Tribunal he published in 1996, David Irving,now black-balled because of his controversial ideas, wondered about some Zionist leaders who were able, in June 1945, immediately after the cessation of hostilities in Europe, to come up in Washington with a precise figure for the Jewish victims – 6 million, of course – even though it was plainly impossible to do any kind of census work in the chaotic conditions prevailing in Europe at that time. A year earlier than Irving, the German historian Joachim Hoffmann who had worked for decades in the German Federal Research Office for Military History, noticed that Ilya Ehrenburg, the chief atrocity specialist of the Soviets, had published the figure of six million in the Soviet foreign language press24 as early as December 1944, more than four months before the war came to an end. In May 1944, Zionist activist Rabbi Dov Weissmandel stated that up to that month six million Jews of Europe and Russia had been annihilated

But that's not all.

From about 1915 onwards, various American newspapers, especially the New York Times, reported that the Jews in central and New York Times, May 7, 1920: “[…] Jewish war sufferers in Central and Eastern Europe, where six millions face horrifying conditions of famine, disease and death […].” New York Times, May 5, 1920, p. 9: “To save six million men and women in Eastern Europe form extermination by hunger and disease.” New York Times, May 5, 1920, p. 19: “Six million starving, fever-stricken sufferers in war-torn Europe appeal to us […]” New York Times, May 3, 1920, p. 11: “Your help is needed to save the lives of six million people in Eastern and Central Europe.” New York Times, May 3, 1920, p. 12: “In Russia and the neighboring countries the Jews have been subject to a particularly malignant persecution […]. It is estimated that more than five millions are actually starving or on the verge of starvation, and a virulent typhus epidemic is raging among them and is already spreading among neighboring populations.” New York Times, May 2, 1920, p. 1: “Six million human beings, without food, shelter, clothing or medical treatment.” New York Times, May 1, 1920, p. 8: “But the lives of 6,000,000 human beings wait upon the answer.” New York Times, Apr. 21, 1920, p. 8: “In Europe there are today more than 5,000,000 Jews who are starving or on the verge of starvation, and many are in the grip of a virulent typhus epidemic.” New York Times, Dec. 3, 1919, p. 19: “nothing on earth except a miracle can prevent the death by freezing and starvation of from 5,000,000 to 10,000,000 people in Europe and the Middle East this winter […] atrocious Jewish massacre.” New York Times, Dec. 3, 1919, p. 24: “Five Million Face Famine in Poland […] The war has left 5,000,000 destitute and stricken Jews in Eastern Europe.” New York Times, Nov. 12, 1919, p. 7: “tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth […] a million children and […] five million parents and elders.” The American Hebrew, Oct. 31, 1919, pp. 582f.: “From across the sea, six million men and women call to us for help […] six million human beings. […] Six million men and women are dying […] in the threatened holocaust of human life […] six million famished men and women. Six million men and women are dying […]” New York Times, Oct. 26, 1919, p. 1: “4,000,000 Starving Jews of Eastern Europe.” New York Times, Sept. 29, 1919, p. 7: “tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth.” New York Times, Aug. 10, 1917: “Germans Let Jews Die. Women and Children in Warsaw Starving to Death […] Jewish mothers, mothers of mercy, feel happy to see their nursing babies die; at least they are through with their suffering.”

Well it seems they tried to pin that one on them during WW1 but failed. Quite interesting for anyone capable of critical thought.

The earliest report found so far dates from the first year of the war: New York Times, Jan. 14, 1915, p. 3: “In the world today there are about 13,000,000 Jews, of whom more than 6,000,000 are in the heart of the war zone; Jews whose lives are at stake and who today are subjected to every manner of suffering and sorrow […].” In 1900, Rabbi Stephen Wise made the following statement before Jewish welfare organizations in the USA:33 “there are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”

It would seem that we are dealing with a certain constant in Jewish suffering, the figure of 6 million.

When you see how unreliable that figure really is, and you begin to see the forces at play promoting it you really have to wonder what is going on and question the dogmas you have been taught. Or not, that is something you will have to sort out for yourselves.

I see no reason to protect anything from critical analysis. And when people do I get suspicious. That's not antisemitism, it's the prerogative of a critical mind.



[edit on 29-6-2009 by D377MC]

[edit on 29-6-2009 by D377MC]

Thanks for your civil repies. Let's be clear though: I did not come up with this 6 million figure . If it came to light that the number was only 2 million (although I doubt this would ever be the case-I will keep an open mind though), that would change nothing and deniers of the holocaust would still be living in ignorance. I also don't believe that this figure is the measuring stick of the holocaust. I believe you to be stuck on numbers and statistics and not on what actually took place there.

The facts are that millions of Jews died in concentration camps. Millions of other ethnic groups died also. There were gas chambers and ovens used on the Jewish people and others.

Further more, one can not be pro holocaust. That's like saying you're pro morning or pro afternoon. These are times of the day that happen whether we want to believe it or not. The holocaust happened whether we want to believe it or not.

I say it is always necessary to look at both sides of an issue before forming an opinion. With that in mind, for those who don't have anything to compare what they have been taught, try this.

Lectures on the Holocaust

You might be surprised with the scholarly content. This is not about hating other people.

reply to post by D377MC


Wow
Where did you dig that up from. Excellent
Be careful D377MC- you are precariously teetering on the edge of being accused of being an outright Anti-semite and Holocaust denier (probably like its been insinuated tht I am for asking such questions).

reply to post by amazing

Further more, one can not be pro holocaust. That's like saying you're pro morning or pro afternoon. These are times of the day that happen whether we want to believe it or not. The holocaust happened whether we want to believe it or not.

Further more i will reiterate one more ; I never said it didn't happen.
I say that it was not and should not be viewed as exclusively Jewish. therefore, it did not happen in the capacity that the Jewish community claim!
I say it has been used by the "Jewish" community as empathetic leverage politically.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
reply to post by amazing

 

Further more i will reiterate one more ; I never said it didn't happen.
I say that it was not and should not be viewed as exclusively Jewish. therefore, it did not happen in the capacity that the Jewish community claim!
I say it has been used by the "Jewish" community as empathetic leverage politically.

Ah but leverage is a completely different topic and thread entirely. Sure they are related but talking about how Jewish people and Israelis use the holocaust as leverage has nothing to do with this thread. To bring that up here is a great wrong and an insult to all those who did die at the hand of the nazis and to all those who died in concentration camps who were not Jewish. To deny the holocaust as the thread title implies means to deny the suffering of millions and to deny the death of children and to belittle the suffering of all of those innocent people. What of them?

reply to post by amazing


here is a section of the OP for your enlightenment:

Learn from the Cambodians. The rest of us whom had families involved and deceased within the great wars want to move on. Why on Earth cant the Jewish community? Oh I forgot- empathy is your tool.

Note the last sentence?

This eludes to what we have been discussing I.E: Jewish community uses the enigma of the Holocaust as a political tool. If it wasn't they would be able to move on (as Cambodia has done). If it wasn't we wouldn't hear about it so often >50years post-war. if it wasn't people wouldn't be gaoled and shamed for an alternative opinion-rather than the simple reservation "They are wrong".
This my friend IS the conspiracy.

If it wasn't we would not be having this discussion, on this thread.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I understand but, I don't understand. Why are you upset that the Jewish people would want a holocaust museum or that they would want us to never forget the tragedy? Or even that they would use it as leverage. You can bet your butt that if I or any member of my family was ever victimized I would be shouting it from the roof tops until my lungs gave out and I would have my justice and vengence. Can you not relate to that? Would you let that happen to your family, relatives or forefathers and keep quiet about it? I hope not. I hope you would not be bullied in that way. I hope the people in cambodia never forget what happened there and keep it fresh in thier memories so that such a crime does not happen again.

I watch a lot of T.V. and i'm amazed how much I don't hear about the holocaust. If it's the actual details of the holocaust that upset you then tune it out, don't rent Schindlers List and don't visit the holocaust museum. No one can make you. You are in control of your own life.

Crying about what one ethnic group does or does not must take up a lot of your time. I'm glad that it does not take up my time. But back to the title of this thread. You cannot expect those like me to not come here and tell you that true ignorance is denying the holocaust.

Peace.

reply to post by amazing

Crying about what one ethnic group does or does not must take up a lot of your time. I'm glad that it does not take up my time. But back to the title of this thread. You cannot expect those like me to not come here and tell you that true ignorance is denying the holocaust.

So what you are saying is that its not OK to have an alternative opinion of the Holocaust; yet it is OK to downplay and ridicule Genocide of another creed. Interesting!

Another purpose of this thread was to show how HYPOCRITICAL the likes of yourself really are.

When will you get a grip on the fact that because individuals don't accept the carbon-copy of recollected events that you do, they should not be branded as ANTI-SEMITES or HOLOCAUST DENIERS!!!!
Pathetic.

Mozeltov!!!
ShalomXXXX

reply to post by amazing


And you cannot expect people like me to not come here and challenge such statements as :

You cannot expect those like me to not come here and tell you that true ignorance is denying the holocaust.

Take no offense at this, please, I mean none, but true ignorance for me is forming an opinion after considering only one side of the evidence.

Which I have myself been guilty of, as I might add that I held your opinion, more vehemently even, as little as 3 years ago. I had to change my mind or face being dishonest with myself after doing the research.





[edit on 30-6-2009 by D377MC]

reply to post by KRISKALI777


ok I actually mispoke there and for that I apologize. What I meant to say was more in line with: Why do you really care what Jewish people use for leverage? You would have been better served with a thread about the plight of the Palestinian people and how unfairly they have been treated perhaps? I don't feel that I've been hypocritical or that I've place a brand or title upon you either.

reply to post by neformore

So its all about the jews then, isn't it?

Well you tell me???

reply to post by neformore

So its all about the jews then, isn't it?

No, its all about zionists. Though vastly reduced compared to the official count, a great number of jews suffered horribly during WW2. Others profited.

For were it not for the 'unimaginable suffering' of 6,000,000 jews, would they have been granted a part of Palestine? Undoubtedly not, they had no more claim to annexation of land in the middle east than the Gipsy's or any other social, political or ethnic group that suffered during WW2.

It seems to me, considering the state of affairs in the middle east today, that this is a fundamental question of paramount importance. It isn't about statistics....