Illegal Immigrant - White Caucasian Settlers - Let Truth Be Spoken

Wow that horrible white man raping, pillaging, and murdering the natives of this land. Wait, I thought most of them died from diseases such as smallpox....In either case, survival of the fittest buddy. Gotta love being a part of nature eh? Even then, nice history lesson, but hardly any valid argument. I had nothing to do with the colonization of America and my "ancestors" didn't come here from Europe until the United States was very well established. The citizens of the United States are now the owners of this land, sorry about your ancestors. To help clarify my logic, say someone loses their house because they can't maintain control of it in terms of finance. A new family moves in and is kept and maintained by the following generations. All of a sudden the great-grand kids of the original owner show up at the door and demand the right to the usage of the house because the ancestors of the current owners indirectly took the ownership of the house from someone else. The big bad White Man took the land fair and square. We took control by way removing the power of the inhabitants. If you feel so strongly about this, there's nothing stopping you and your people from trying to take it back in the same manner. There's never a guarantee of success but in the event you do, well good for you looks like we'll be forced to abide by your laws, just like we force people who come here to abide by ours.

I have absolutely no problem sharing this land with these people. They are more than welcome to come here. But if they wish to be a part of this nation they should do so in accordance with the law of this land. And you say these people are peaceable? Oh sure I don't doubt that there are people with very reasonable incentive to come here and are peaceable. But, on the same not, there are probably twice as many gang members and drug cartel that come through there. The rancher has suffered severe property damage and absolutely more emotional distress than he caused these Mexican People. The man I'm sure he faces concern for his family every waking moment. There are dangerous people coming through that border and onto his property he has the guaranteed right to Life, Liberty and Property and sure as hell has the right to defend such.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by Dienekes]

First of all, why are we only talking about the United States? Why is it that nobody complains about immigration policies keeping people out of other countries? Why also is it that everybody wants to come here? Is it possible that the U.S. has better land than other countries? Does it have more and better natural resources than all other countries on the planet? It has nothing to do with the land. It has to do with how prosperous the country has become. It is pure jealosy. There are more opportunities for success here. Do you suppose this came by chance? I guess all of that prosperity would have to be the "fault" of the White Caucasian Settlers, as you call them.

How many countries do I need to name since the beginning of time that have wiped out, enslaved, or removed large ethnic groups based on race, politics or religion and took control of their land? (currently happening in some countries today, as we speak). Why don't you talk about any of them? Why does it always come back to talk about the U.S.? Why do you all have such a short and limited memory or limited knowledge of history?

All that will happen if the immigration floodgates are opened, is that a great nation will be brought down to the level lower than the world average, and then the same type of people that ruined it will want to move to the next prosperous country (over many years, of course). Your posterity will likely be complaining about that country in the future.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

An immigrant is just a setter, and it's okay to settle.

But to be a son of a settler and then insult more 'recent' settlers has no logic whatsoever.

Sure it does. Times have changed. Laws and restrictions are in place now. Back then, there wasn't any enforcement. Honestly, there's absolutely no comparrison between immigrants illegally crossing borders today and what took place hundreds of years ago. Unfortunately, it is your logic that is flawed. You must take EVERYTHING into account to form a valid argument. Not just the points you like.


- Strype

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

What would you have us do? Change history? We have to deal with the here and now regardless of the story history has told thus far. We cannot undo this and to make this argument is essentially to ask us to do just that. History is an important lesson for those who think imperialism is a good thing. Imperialism is the reason our country has risen and it will be the cause of our demise. No doubt there. But we should not be asking ourselves to forgo all that we've built, the laws we stand on, to appease the sensibilities of the past.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by projectvxn]

As far as all the post that didn't agree with me this post was the most on-point and in-topic.

Thank You, I will respond to this shortly
I hope more follow your lead.

And yet I've yet to receive this response. Look I'm not in this thread to bash one way or the other. But I left you 2 very well thought out responses to your arguments, and you have chosen to ignore them entirely, even after posting this unprompted promise of a response.

There are two. Perhaps you've seen them. The first:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Second:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In a way I fully agree here that what you are saying is true. My family is in Maine, I was born on an Island in the middle of a river. The name of it is Indian Island for those of you that have never been there or heard of it. In fact all of the time my daughter brings home stuff from school about the Blacks and how they had no rights. Like I told her, Our people still live on an island where there is a 50% death rate for every birth. Our schools are on the island. And our little hospital. We are not allowed to go to the white mans hospital or schools. Now who has rights?

As for the illegals here is a great little thing and its source. But truthfully, I have to say it what is 1% of the population? Do you realize how much of the US is still untouched? 65% of the state of Maine has never been developed. Its still wild land. Montana is about 50% as well. Then you have many other states including Arkansas with about 25% undeveloped land. And Missouri. WV has over 25% undeveloped with Virginia and Kentucky coming in at 40%. Yet you act like our country is over run. Its not at all.

"I know that many Americans retire to Mexico. I do not know the number, but suspect that it is much less than the number of Mexicans coming to stay in the United States. If that number is identical, that, of course, obviates the "quantity" aspect of the above rule and the only remaining aspects would be qualitative.

Now, as you can see, the population of the United States increases somewhat in excess of what it would do otherwise and the population of Mexico decreases in like proportion. The total number of illegal immigrants is estimated at 11 million and ... because the population of the United States is about 300 million ... we have an excess of about 3 percent. So, we can see that the normal yearly increase in population (about 1%) in the US from the birth/death discrepancy (more births than deaths) is roughly equal to all the total illegal immigrants presently here. Thus, excess births easily outstrip the yearly population

Now, we have an increase in population yearly ... due to illegal immigration ... of perhaps say, 0.25 percent (it's probably somewhat less) and those people are (remember) unskilled ... so the level of advancement of the illegals is probably more on the order of 8 to 5.

With this estimate, I conclude that the problem of illegal immigration is quantitatively insignificant at the national level, but has some definite significance at the state level particularly in the border states and ... close to that border it might be an overbearing problem, i.e. too much for the local authorities to handle. That is, they can't process, feed, house, school, provide work for ... so many illegal aliens in the short time required. "




Source

The US imigration site basicly states the same stuff. Its 1% of our population. For crying out loud please quit complaining about 1%. If it was 20% yeah I would be complaining.

Also if you do a search you will find out that illegals do pay taxes yearly. They also pay into SS yearly but wont ever get it back. But the excess SS goes to pay our older folks. In fact one of the news sites stated that the US government took in over $850,000 last year in taxes from illegals that had to pay rather then get back tax refunds. So where is all the trash about they dont pay taxes coming from? Probally some idiot that still thinks there living off welfare. Which they also cant get.

But I am not going to complain about 1% of the people here in the US.

Figured I had better add this. According to INS, that 1% includes those that have over stayed Visas, and from many other countries. Including Haiti, and Canada ect.











[edit on 20-2-2009 by pmbhuntress]

[edit on 20-2-2009 by pmbhuntress]

Modern Academia plagerized me almost word for word from a private message I sent to a youtube user named Zawkdog on January 15th. I still have the message in my outbox with its original date stamp. I can forward it to any other youtube user, and hopefully it will retain its orignal date stamp. ***Please immediately note the first sentence of the last paragraph.

“The manner in which the middle east has resisted colonialism is really not that different from how the Americans resisted the British, or, previously, how the Native Americans resisted the new Americans. We won the revolution, in large part, by using our familiarity with American soil and are willingness to utilize guerrilla tactics against a stronger and more technically superior force who we saw as "invaders."

Using North America as a good example, the natives lost against the new Americans but Americans were nevertheless able to defeat the British. Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys? It's all relative - the middle east is no different except that the technological difference between the bad guys and good guys is much greater - especially with regard to Israel as they are greatly aided by US's weapons and technology. The Native Americans would not accept our presence and, unfortunately, we responded by killing most of them or moving them onto small reservations in much the same way Palestinians have been moved and restricted. The decision for the Palestinian extremists, it seems, is to accept being pushed around or respond violently, even if they know they can never win against the might of Israel. The personal justifications of the guys firing the rockets are probably much the same as the Israelis dropping the bombs on civilian structures. Both will argue that they have no other choice and both will see the other as evil. They may lament civilian losses in a very limited way, but the fact is that they view the entire population as either enemies or those who would support their enemies.

It is not debatable that Israel has the power to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth, in much the same way the Americans could have eliminated the Native Americans completely. Looking at the small number of causalities and the undeniable fact that Israel only got this territory in 1948, making them the colonists; Israel has the same decision as the Americans. Accept the disruption of a transitionary period from mild resistance and to eventual accepted domination OR kill the Palestinians without restraint. The Americans finally chose some small measure of mercy after a large number of atrocities against the native Americans, as they were relocated over and over against when the Americans desired more and more land. The native Americans were once referred to only as savages but they regained human status. Legally, negotiations between them and the US government eventually attained the status of negotiations with a foreign yet sovereign nation - separable and distinguishable from the United States.

Israeli cease fire agreements with Hamas can be equated to the land contracts that the US government made with the natives and unilaterally broke when they wanted more. There was no reason to honor our word because the natives were not a real threat or real people for that matter. If history repeats itself, a real Palestinian nation may arise that will be recognized as a sovereign nation by Israel - yet this nation will always be inferior to Israel. It stops mattering who was really there first because those with the power decide right and wrong. Today, limited reservations are found all over the US but they filled with a people who have lost more and more of their culture with each generation. As compared to the general population, Native Americans have an especially high rate of alcoholism and drug abuse. Free college educations for native Americans are financed by the US government but only encourage them to leave their lands and forget their traditions. It's really sad but that is the reality of the world. Nothing you see on the news is really new and unprecedented. It has all happened before and will happen again.

Israel is too powerful. However you may disagree with you, we can both agree that Israel will not be defeated by Palestine. It won't be going anywhere unless a stronger entity chooses to make a move on it. The Palestinians will be forced into smaller and smaller territory until they are killed or until they stop caring and resisting. The native Americans put up a fight too - they were a good people with a unique culture. They didn't deserve the treatment they received. Manifest destiny justified their destruction and Israel will justify what happens to the Palestinians. It will happen regardless. The "Why" will be chosen later by historians and politicians - it won't have any effect on the outcome. Obviously, diplomacy is harder and longer than simply dropping bombs. If there's a cease fire, it will be broken by either side or both sides and then they'll start trying to kill each other again.

We called all the Native Americans savages. The Palestinians are seen as all terrorists. The only thing that changes over time is the labels and the things we are willing to kill and die for - land, gold, oil, etc. As a species, we are simply cavemen with jets and nukes instead of rocks and sticks. Good and evil are meaningless. The guy with the bigger stick wins and he will write the books that say he was good and the dead guy was bad. That's life. We can argue about evolving beyond our instincts but it's not true. In war, there is no moral high ground - there's just death justified as "God's will" rather than man's fear, hatred, intolerance, and selfishness. The war on terrorism will be over the day that there is only one man left on earth who doesn't have anyone else to be afraid of, anyone else who is different from himself.”

Absurdly grandiose thread title- 'Let Truth Be Spoken'

Every word of the thread title capitalized, presumably to accent OP`s taste for self-aggrandizement.

Buzzwords like 'imperialism' and 'colonialism' sprinkled liberally throughout OP`s post.

My, these threads are becoming tiresome.

If Israel completely took over palestine, some of these same people would be anti-israel because they know it's wrong. But when they are the descendants of oppressors they have a different opinion.

Sorry, but wasn't it originally the jews, thousands of years ago, who got kicked out from their holy-land? Therefore, using your logic, shouldn't the Jews be abled to march right in and take Palestine?

See, the point I'm making is these conflicts happened hundreds of years ago. They do not apply today. I am not my own ancestors. This is not an episode of Futurama. This is real life. I was not born hundreds of years ago; therefore, what the hell do I have to do with actions that were undertaken by others hundreds of years ago? We should stop living in the past and look at the present and at the future, not at grudges of the past.

Furthermore, what do you want us to do? Open up all borders, and let them illegal immigrants harrass that rancher? After all, people with the same colour skin as us did it a few hundred years ago.

[edit on 20/2/2009 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by C0bzz
Sorry, but wasn't it originally the jews, thousands of years ago, who got kicked out from their holy-land? Therefore, using your logic, shouldn't the Jews be abled to march right in and take Palestine?

Not exactly.

Remember... Jehovah led HIS people to the Promised Land...

"In the Name of or Lord, these lands are ours!"

The Jews kicked out the Philistines. Read the Bible, it's all there.

I love you "fuzzy bunny" libs!

How about my family (heck, all my friends) come move into your house, eat your food, use your facilities, drive your car(without insurance), commit a few heinous crimes, and THEN get pissed because we want you to leave YOUR HOUSE!

No, you revisionist individual. Most of the people here DIDNT come illegally. Were the indians shafted? No doubt. Its a hundred years ago, get over it! That would be like the Saxons being told to go home from England!

I could really go off on this but I would be censored.