Vatican attacks US abortion move

-The vatican and pro-lifers voicing out their opinion? Wonderful! Its their right!

-Pro-lifers putting up anti-abortion ads? Thats fine, so long as they have the cash to put them up all over, its their right. Voicing out their views, advertising their views, its what a capitalist free society intends!

-The christian right attempting to make their religious views law? Wrong and against the consitution and the right of the individual. As far as I can see it, the early stages is still verymuch within the womans body and her choice to make.

I believe god and at the same time I believe that God intended for humans to make their own choices as to allowing him into their heart or not. If they make the wrong choice in the view of the bible, they shall be dealt with, but nevertheless its their choice and their judgement. Nobody elses.

Originally posted by Alferd Packer
You choose to sin. I choose to forgive you.

God? Are you there? Posting on ATS? Wow! [/endsarcasm]

That's very big of you, Mr. Packer. I forgive you too, for whatever sins you have chosen.

reply to post by cropmuncher


What an absolute piece of nonsense from a bigot.

Welcome to the 21st century William.

Originally posted by Alferd Packer
Good for the Vatican!

Your an idiot for thinking its "right" to mash a baby embryo into paste and have it shop-vac'd out.

But hey its your decision. And God gave us the right to choose.....so hey your right. Your right. Your right. Your right....is that what you wanted to hear?


You choose to sin. I choose to forgive you.

[edit on 12/18/84 by Alferd Packer]

That's all very easy for you to say -- you're a bloke, right? So you don't have to go through the ordeals of pregnancy like women do. And people make mistakes -- often that mistake is getting pregnant. People are allowed to correct those mistakes, even is it means to 'mash a baby embryo into paste'.

Along that same thought, are you saying that you commit murder to 'millions' when you're "on your own" ?

As for this deal of when the "soul" enters the body, that's completely subjective -- no one knows when. You may ssay at conception but in the Islamic world the soul apparently enters the body after something like 120 days. So it's ok before then? Or does God tell you (personally) a different time?

What about the societies who induced abortions *before* the invention of 'God' and Christ and all those guys? The Chinese were doing this some 5000 years ago, the Egyptians some 1500BC. They weren't instructed by 'God' that it was wrong, it was commonplace and accepted. Their 'Gods' didn't say no. They didn't sin. It was normal. It was their right.

This is why religion has no place in these sorts of decisions -- the religious aspect only imposes morality based on a means of control and power - not for the well-being of the individual. And this *isn't* about the fetus/embryo/goo inside the mum - this is about the *mum* and her rights.

Originally posted by southern_Guardian
-The christian right attempting to make their religious views law? Wrong and against the consitution and the right of the individual. As far as I can see it, the early stages is still verymuch within the womans body and her choice to make.

I believe god and at the same time I believe that God intended for humans to make their own choices as to allowing him into their heart or not. If they make the wrong choice in the view of the bible, they shall be dealt with, but nevertheless its their choice and their judgement. Nobody elses.

Pregnancy involves two individuals and abortion is an assertion of the rights of one over another - and that is the most fundamental of rights, that to life.

Your "as far as I can see it" is going a bit further than the President's "above my pay grade" which I think is particularly interesting in his case. Re. government openness he allows a "presumption" in favour of disclosure where there is a doubt. Where abortion is concerned he presumes in favour of the constructed "woman's right to choose" in preference to the fundamental right to life. He's not sure when life begins, it might be at conception, it might be at the quickening, etc. etc. but when it comes to abortion he acts in a way which presumes that which he himself has declared he does not know.

The "God knows" and He alone will judge is, of course, an attractive proposition but (as in the case of abortion) if universally applied it could give license to the most appaling of behaviours. In this particular case it not only allows that it also imposes upon the tax-payer the burden of supporting actions to which some are fundamentally oppossed and which the President himself is on record as being unsure about.

PLEASE SET US FREE FROM THE POPE AND THE CHURCH.

an italian

Originally posted by FlyersFan
"If there is a child that you don't want or can't feed or educate, give that child to me. I will not refuse any child. I will give a home, or find loving parents for him or for her. Weare fighting abortion by adoption and have given thousands of children to caring families. And it is so beautiful to see the love and unity that a child brings to a family."

There isn't much more I can say to this other than "Wow". I need to find out how I can do this too.

Originally posted by slicobacon
You miss the point. The point is that the US govt will be collecting our tax money to pay for abortions overseas. I am against abortion, and my money is being taken from me for this use although I consider it morally wrong. There is nothing wrong with the church voicing its concern - it is actually responsible to, think of the Catholics in the US who are being forced to contribute to something they feel is so morally wrong?

And Protestants. Don't forget about us too. I don't have to be Catholic to thank God that the Catholic church is saying something about abortions here or abroad.

Originally posted by moocowman
Christianity has had 2000 years to resolve the abortion issue, it failed completely.

How many years has it been legal now out of those 2,000? Why do you think the fight is over? Because this thread isn't considered long enough to be a 'fight'? The fight for the lives of these babies continues on and will so long as they are threatened and anyone who lives cares enough about them to say something.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by saint4God]

I think one of President Obama's next course of action should be declaring war on the Vatican. we need to get them before they can get us!

in all seriousness, Vatican is in for a rude awakening. Finally we have somebody whose religion does not supersede his politcal beliefs... or at least that's the impression i get of the guy.

For all those who say they are anti-abortion - - - how many have been in a position to make that decision??

As far as YOUR belief - - you can believe whatever you want - - just stay out of my government.

As far as the Vatican goes - - they and all their properties should be raided and fully investigated.

Hi,

Abortion is a big topic, and has been discussed on many threads.

We will not solve the problem on this thread.

However, in keeping with the OP, the Vatican has the obligation to fight programs that violate the beliefs of it's constituents, just as your Representative in Congress would fight for your beliefs. That seems to go without saying, doesn't it?

As a Christian and a veteran, I find killing the innocent abhorrent. Maybe that is your cup o' tea, and you find it okay in your beliefs.

I believe in freedom of choice, absolutely. I believe the time of choice is when you are crawling into bed with someone, and you choose to use or not use contraceptives. Abortion is not supposed to be a contraceptive.

I object to federal funding of contraception aka abortion, but I am for programs that teach contraception or abstinence.

In any other arena, when you make a mistake you must be responsible for it. For example, in the banking fiasco, the bankers must be responsible for their oversight errors. If that were abortion, the bankers would be allowed to write off the losses without affecting their stock value or their bottom line.
Is that how you want to run this world?

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I believe in freedom of choice, absolutely. I believe the time of choice is when you are crawling into bed with someone, and you choose to use or not use contraceptives. Abortion is not supposed to be a contraceptive.

People are so easily judging again, ever thought of scenarios in which women are raped? In fact, who are you or me to judge whether someone should be allowed to have an abortion. I always thought that Americans so much valued their liberties, it seems that's only for some liberties.

Originally posted by Terapin
reply to post by West Coast

 

As I said earlier, I am not pro abortion, no one is,

No-one is? Well im definately pro-abortion, if a coupe of idiot teenagers get pregnant at 14 and have no means of bringing up a child why should we have to bare that burden? especially when its only a few weeks old it is no more alive than a boil on my ass. Think of the benifits to stem cell research that could benfit thousands of people!

Does the world really NEED more people? its not like stopping the birth is going to send our species into a spiral of extinction. I think the 'pro-lifers' have got it wrong why not focus your pro-life efforts into improving the quality of life for the millions that have sweet f-all? instead of crying about a parents right to decide if they want to bring another person into this world just for it to suffer in a broken house hold which tends to end up in crime anyway? If the mother wants to abort then do it! she is the one that has to live with it, wether it bothers her or not.

And dont even get me started on crackheads, they are just walking sociaty drainers they should have mandatory sterilization introduced (although reversible incase they do recover which is highly unlikely). So all you catholics and anti abortionists, they should send all babies from unfit parents into your care by LAW, you wouldnt have a choice but even if you had a happy family and you doin financially ok, the government will come along and drop a withdrawing crackbaby on you doorstep and YOU have to raise it, That sounds fair to me because why should i have to pay to look after these kids when they could of been terminated when they were but a seething mass of tissue inside a unfit woman? Buy the way i have had an abortion (not me my ex) and i have zero regrets infact i think it was one of the best decisions of my life, otherwise i would be stuck with a child now who would be living in seperated household i wouldnt have done my studies and i would have remained a lowerclass citizen unable to afford what i want for my kid, but now i have the chance to sort my life out, get into a stable relationship sort my finances out and eventually bring a wanted child into this earth who can be looked after financially and emotionly without having to rely on tax payers money to do it!

Anti abortionists, PULL YOUR HEAD OUT if you dont want a abortion DONT HAVE ONE. Dont force your idiotic 1st century god fearing (or not) views upon us

. . . and if I built a sand castle - and it had a mistake - I would just wash it away - fix it - or wait until a more suitable time.

Anyone can take a situation in life and twist it to fit their agenda.

If you are Catholic - fine - listen to the Vatican.

If you are president of a country built on Freedom of Choice - - then it is your job not to make decisions based on religion - period.

The Vatican has no business interfering with American politics.

Note: I realize there are also Atheist who are anti-abortion - - but predominantly - it is a religious based argument.

Originally posted by projectvxn


When the Vatican won't even hand out condoms in Africa because they see it as immoral(as aids destroys Africa),/quote]

Actually, it's a known fact that condoms do not prevent HIV transmission.

About 1 virus can leak through the condom.
About 1 percent of condoms break.

Logically, if any virus leaks through the condom, you contract HIV. The virus is in the bodily fluid, so if any bodily fluid passes around the condom from any other contact, the likelihood of contracting HIV increases.

Conservatively, every 100 acts using condoms transmit one HIV.
Approximately one in every 200 persons today has HIV. With hundreds of millions of sexual acts daily, it's easy to see why the HIV, unquarantined, continues to increase in spite of billions of dollars invested.

"It should be noted that condom use cannot provide absolute protection against HIV. The surest way to avoid transmission of HIV is to abstain from sexual intercourse or to be in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested and you know is uninfected." Center for Disease Control: www.cdc.gov...

www.righto.com...
sqzm14.ust.hk...

The Vatican warning against arrogance? For real?! That seriously made me laugh! Not that I agree with what Obama did, but who the hell cares what the vactican says.

Originally posted by Skinon

Well im definately pro-abortion, if a coupe of idiot teenagers get pregnant at 14 and have no means of bringing up a child why should we have to bare that burden? especially when its only a few weeks old it is no more alive than a boil on my ass. ........bring a wanted child into this earth who can be looked after financially and emotionly without having to rely on tax payers money to do it!

Reasonable people would put a child up for adoption before killing it, right? Is death your first choice?

Third, easy question. Did you pay for the abortion with your health insurance, or did I pay for it?

As far as rape and incest go, I say we let the child be born, let it grow up to say, 21, then ask it if he wants to be killed. Fair enough?

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by MaMaa
The Vatican warning against arrogance? For real?! That seriously made me laugh! Not that I agree with what Obama did, but who the hell cares what the vactican says.

Roman Catholics!

Glad to clear that up for you.


Those who are pro choice, where do you draw the line?

You think 24 weeks is ok?

You think its ok for some to use abortion as some kind
of contraception?

Is 5, 6, 7, 8 abortions fine by you?

Im not entirely against pro choice but 8 weeks gestation should be the max and if you haven't learned your lesson after one termination
then thats just tough.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by jimbo2167]

I cannot believe that some people just do not understand what an important issue this is. I myself am only 16 years old and yet I fully understand this -> "a life, is alife, is a life" it does not matter how old, how young, what race, where they are from or even how the child was concieved or why. The point is that a human being is simply that; a human being. NO ONE can dispute this.

Now; what is a life, when does it start? Do some research. It is not when distinguishable body parts are formed. It is not 2 weeks before the date the child (make no mistake, it is a child, a human being) is proposed to be "born". It is the moment of conception and is an irrefutable scientific fact. Look it up. Also check out some interviews with ex-abortionists if you still aren't convinced.

I find many peoples ignorance on this website truly heartbreaking . Which is why I am writing this in the first place. Words like "moron" and grouping people together (im looking at whoever said they dislike catholics) is rediculous. That is like saying I dislike asians, or blacks, or whites, or arabs. The word "prejudice" comes to mind.

And to those who said it doesn't affect you so dont wory about it and that people have the right to make their own choices about this; i have this to say to you: Do you believe that it is MY choice to murder my sister, brother, neighbour, if I deem them to be an inconvenience to me? And are you suggesting that I should ignore what travesty's go on around me? Are you suggesting that because it is not me who is aborting this child that I should just let it be and not speak out against it. If so I find great controversy in the fact that so many on this website say that they are against ignorance and that the "sheeple" need to "wake up" and see what the gov't is doin because it is these (presumably) same people who are telling us to ignore abortion... strange . - Mike