Vatican attacks US abortion move

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


No, humans have always eaten meat. We were clearly designed to, whether by evolution of by the creationist theory. Therefore eating meat is fine.

A flower is different, it is never going to become sentient. The baby will. So I apologise, I guess my definition was wrong.

Sentience does matter, it just doesn't mater if you are sentient at the time or not, if you will one day become sentient...then it is wrong.


And no, you didn't say everyone SHOULD kill their child. But I don't think they should have that choice at all. It shouldn't be their choice to make.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by StevenDye]

reply to post by StevenDye


You can have that belief, I respect and accept that yours differs from mine. However, it is not right for YOUR beliefs to be legislated and forced on me. The Catholic church tries to go around a tell everyone how to live their lives when they truly have no right to do so. Who are they that there opinion matters over anything else?

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Before it is born it is not it's own sentient being,

How do you know?

it is a part of the mother's body

The child has his or her own heart beat.

The child plays with his fingers and toes in the womb.
The child sleeps and wakes.
The child yawns.
The child opens his or her eyes and looks around.

Stopping another human heart from beating is homicide.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
A woman should be the only person allowed to dictate what goes on in her uterus.

She exercised her choice when she had sexual relations that created another human being. Her freedom of choice has been exercised.

Homicide is not a freedom of choice. It's homicide.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
I'm sick of anti-abortionists using the word murder without realizing exactly what it means.

We know exactly what it means - both legally and morally.

You're not a "human being in the womb", you are an undeveloped life form growing in someones uterus.

Wrong. The child is a preborn human being who FEELS PAIN.

Originally posted by StevenDye
Sentience does matter, it just doesn't mater if you are sentient at the time or not, if you will one day become sentient...then it is wrong.
[edit on 25-1-2009 by StevenDye]

This is more or less my belief on the matter as well. Given that the fetus will develop into a fully sentient human if allowed to do so, then I agree, there's something wrong with destroying it. Its still a human life, even if it has not *yet* developed sentience. The circumstances, IMO, are not comparable to a plant or even an animal.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by vor78]

If abortion isn't wrong, then what is?" - St. Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

St. Mother Teresa said this to the American Supreme Court -

"Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government," she said. "They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or sovereign. The Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany recently ruled: 'The unborn child is entitled to its right to life independently of its acceptance by its mother; this is an elementary and inalienable right which emanates from the dignity of the human being.'

St. Mother Teresa said this to the Cairo Conference -

"I have said often, and I am sure of it, that the greatest destroyer of peace in the world today is abortion. If a mother can kill her own child, what is there to stop you and me from killing each other? The only one who has the right to take life is the One who has created it. Nobody else has that right: not conference, no government."

And also this at that same Conference -

"If there is a child that you don't want or can't feed or educate, give that child to me. I will not refuse any child. I will give a home, or find loving parents for him or for her. Weare fighting abortion by adoption and have given thousands of children to caring families. And it is so beautiful to see the love and unity that a child brings to a family."

and St. Mother Teresa's words at the National Prayer Breakfast -

"By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And, by abortion, that father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. The father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion."

reply to post by FlyersFan


It doesn't matter if the fetus plays with it's does or any of that in the womb. It is growing inside an organ that belongs to the mother. ESSENTIALLY it is a parasite:

parasite noun
1. an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host [ant: host]
2. a follower who hangs around a host (without benefit to the host) in hope of gain or advantage [syn: leech]

The mother will CONTINUALLY have the jurisdiction over her own uterus no matter WHAT else is inside it. It is still HER uterus and NO ONE elses. How do I know the fetus is not a sentient being? How do YOU know it is? You don't

A fetus is a growth and until birth it doesn't have ANY choice in any matter.

EDIT: I know you're going to post all that crap about Mother Teresa and that preacher that thinks abortion is genocide. They can think that all they like, they shouldn't be able to tell anyone else what to do with their organs.

[edit on 1/25/09 by TasteTheMagick]

More Information -

I started this thread four years ago -

Abortion is Black Genocide


Video - Obama, Martin Luther King Jr, and Planned Parenthood



Black pastor warns Obama

Black pastor warns Obama not to preside over genocide of blacks through abortion

reply to post by FlyersFan


Abortion is NOT black genocide.

There are plenty of white women that get abortions.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
It doesn't matter if the fetus plays with it's does or any of that in the womb.

You said that the child is not a sentient being. So yes it does indeed matter what the child is doing in the womb. This shows that the child FEELS PAIN, is exploring and playing in his or her world, is sleeping, is waking, is yawning .. these are things that a sentient being does.

ESSENTIALLY it is a parasite

ESSENTIALLY he or she is a human baby.

A fetus is a growth and until birth it doesn't have ANY choice in any matter.

The child does not have any voice to tell people that he or she doesn't want to be murdered. But neither does a person who is deaf or mute. That doesn't make them any less of a human being.

that crap about Mother Teresa and that preacher that thinks abortion is genocide.

Those are two very wise people. Their words express a deep truth.
Instead of spitting venom towards the truth, perhaps you should actually read what is said, let it touch your heart and mind, and learn from it.

they shouldn't be able to tell anyone else what to do with their organs.

The woman who murders her child in the womb is the one who is doing something to someone else's organs. She is destroying them. She is causing someone else's heart to stop beating. So by your standard, she is wrong to do so.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Abortion is NOT black genocide.

It's more like Abortion is black SUICIDE since they are doing it to themselves. The percentage of abortions that blacks have as opposed to whites in this country is MUCH HIGHER then the demographics call for.

Read the site. The information is valid.

There is definately racial disparity.
And Planned Parenthood is making a fortune off these people.
They make money from those going in for abortion.
They make money selling the body parts of the dead children to drug companies for experiments.

It's a money making conspiracy wrapped in the sugar coating of the words 'choice'.

Really? Those are things a sentient being does...ok. But a sentient being can ALSO maintain it's own life. If you took the fetus out of the womb in the fourth month of pregnancy, it wouldn't be able to live without being hooked up to some ridiculous machines. That is not a sentient being.

A woman who has an abortion is not doing any of the things you mention. Until that fetus is born, all of those organs are HERS. Not anyone elses.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It's a money making conspiracy wrapped in the sugar coating of the words 'choice'.

A conspiracy? Are you kidding? You act as though these women are being FORCED into having abortions. No one makes a woman decide to get an abortion. She is presented with information and makes her own choice.

I knew that this topic would degenerate into a Pro/Con fight on abortion rights. Please, move forward. It is fine to express your opinion, but it is wrong to Force others to abide by your choice.

This Topic is about the Vatican trying to exercise political power. Funny, as the Vatican is morally bankrupt and quite hypocritical. What about all the Nuns who get pregnant by priests and the Church tries to quietly abort the baby? It happens more often than you might guess. Fine for them to Abort, just don't you do it.

And what about how the Vatican tries to cover up rampant homosexual pedofilia? The Pope called home the Boston Bishop who was involved in covering up child rape by priests, and even enabling its occurrence, yet the Bishop received no punishment for it. No compassion for the victims, and a cushy job for the enabler. Yeah, that sounds like what Jesus wanted.

The Vatican is so backwards that it wasn't until recently that they finally admitted they were wrong to lock up Galileo, excommunicate him, and brand him as a heretic, for simply stating that the Earth went around the Sun.

Anyone who listens to the Vatican for moral guidance should have their head examined.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
Those are things a sentient being does...ok. But a sentient being can ALSO maintain it's own life.

WRONG. At many points in our lives our lives are upheld by artifical means. Drugs keep millions of people alive around the world. So does Kidney dialiysis. Those people are not maintaining their own lives and yet they are still sentient beings. Even jump started back to life. Being a sentient being does not mean that at all times you maintain your own life.

A woman who has an abortion is not doing any of the things you mention.

Of course she does.
She stops someone else's heart from beating.
She commits homicide.

Until that fetus is born, all of those organs are HERS. Not anyone elses.

WRONG
It's not her heart that stops beating.
It's not her eyes that open and shut in the womb.
It's not her ears that hear sounds through the wall of the womb.
It's not her fingers and toes being played with.
It's not her nervous system that is feeling PAIN.

Originally posted by Terapin
It is fine to express your opinion,

If you really believe that then you should be just fine with the Vatican expressing it's opinion and doing it's job - it's job is that it is to be the spiritual leaders of the church.

This Topic is about the Vatican trying to exercise political power.

The topic is about the vatican doing it's job.
The topic is about the vatican exercising freedom of speech.
The topic is about the vatican exercising freedom of religion.

What about all the Nuns who get pregnant by priests and the Church tries to quietly abort the baby?

ALL? Got some statistics to back that up? And I don't mean jack chick tracts.

the Vatican tries to cover up rampant homosexual pedofilia?

Rampant? As was previously stated .. statistics show that less than 1/10 of 1% of priests were part of the sex abuse scandel. RAMPENT is the sex abuse going on in public schools. Not Catholic churches.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
A conspiracy? Are you kidding?

I'm not kidding. People are blissfully unaware of the BUSINESS of abortion in this country. It's being sold to them - candy coated as choice - when in fact it's a money making machine. The corporations and business' make money off women - a high percentage of poor/minority women - as they go in for abortions. Then those business' make money off of selling the body parts of dead children to drug companies for research.

It's a money making machine.

But all that's sold to America is the pretty word - 'choice'.

Being a bloke, I'm not sure how much of a right I have to weigh in on this.

BUT, my belief is that it's a womans choice - they are the ones who have to live with the psychological consequences.

On the subject of the RCC weighing in on this, it's to be expected - it's their belief and they have the right to express it, much as I dislike their meddling in politics.

Anyone 'sane' who cares about what the Vatican thinks?
Sorry to offend anybody, but a few old men decide what women should do? Please...were not in the dark ages anymore.

The only reason why they are against abortion, is they'll have less souls to indoctrinate. And not because they think life is so precious. If they did, they wouldn't wage wars against non-believers in the past centuries.

Originally posted by mortje
not because they think life is so precious. If they did, they wouldn't wage wars against non-believers in the past centuries.

Past centuries .. like 700 years ago?
BTW - the protestants, the jews, and the muslims all did the same.

Originally posted by budski
the RCC weighing in on this, it's to be expected - it's their belief and they have the right to express it,

A sane voice in the wilderness.