Chinese Fleet 2008, page 6

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reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 11:49 AM by thefreepatriot

China is a growing superpower.. We may have the power now... but for how long? 10- 20 years from now... people will probably be laughing at our navy... who knows if it will even exist at the rate things are going..

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 11:52 AM by Solomons

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 11:53 AM by Orwells Ghost

Some guy posts a few pictures of some boats on the internet and gets hated on. That's all that I see here. There were no political or ideological statements in the OP, only in the replies. That alone speaks to the character of certain individuals on this board. Hate will not make you happy, only lonelier and more afraid. So how 'bout we talk about some boats instead?

So which of these surface ships carries the Aegis system? I'd heard China had "acquired" there own version of this system. How widely is it deployed throughout the PLAN? Also, which one of these subs is of the type that unexpectedly popped up in the midst of a US carrier group last summer? Am I correct in assuming it had to be one of the diesel variants?

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 11:55 AM by thefreepatriot

Originally posted by TheOracle
Well the nazis had the best technologies by miles and yet lost to the soviets and their "cheap stuff". People should stop being childish over who has the biggest toys.

The Nazis lost because of a crucial mistake... they tried to invade Russia during winter... same mistake Napolean made..(history does repeat itself) Russia is huge.. and to cross that and to try to get to moscow during the winter is a death sentence during those times..Technology was not the reason.. it was a strategic mistake... had Hitler not made that mistake.. I am sure we would be speaking German right now..

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 11:58 AM by thefreepatriot

reply to post by Orwells Ghost

the reason the op is being attacked is because those people fear the truth .... the truth that China is a rising superpower and the U.S is losing it.... China is up there in the military power club...Also don't forget china has an enormous population.. with a much larger military capable males then us.. China is not Cuba... So couple fear with patriotism.. it is a natural response..

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 12:03 PM by imdeceived

reply to post by Orwells Ghost

As far as I know, the type 052C destroyer (NATO code name Luyang II class, often referred to as Lanzhou class after the lead ship name) is the only chinese vessel to feature an APAR-style active phased array radar system.

The first ship was commisioned around 2002 and stunned the Us Navy because of the reversed engineered AEGIS system featured on the ship.

Im guessing it's the only chinese surface vessel that is on par technologicly with its western counter-parts.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by imdeceived]

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 12:06 PM by thefreepatriot

reply to post by C0bzz

People think that subs look like the movies... Military ships are not designed to be pretty.. They are designed to kill.. China is a very foremadable adversary.. and so is the Big Bear... Just pull up population stats on both.. and put together military power... I doubt the U.S would want to play with them.... We pick on smaller countries that are incapable of fighting back.. Like Iraq..

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 12:34 PM by Koka

Originally posted by blowfishdl
reply to post by mel1962

Thanks mel..

ChinaWhite -

This discussion cannot continue because you cannot win an argument with ignorance.

It's very big of you to admit as much blowfishdl...I applaud you.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by Koka]

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 12:42 PM by SLAYER69

Originally posted by imdeceived

The first ship was commisioned around 2002 and stunned the Us Navy because of the reversed engineered AEGIS system featured on the ship.

Im guessing it's the only chinese surface vessel that is on par technologicly with its western counter-parts.

These are some nice looking vesels no doubt China is doing its homework.

However they do have a long way to go before people can say the US navy "Has lost it" There is much improvement needed and they seem to me to be on the right track.

Now having said that, and as impressive as they seem they have not been battle tested nor do the chinese have much of a history in modern naval warfare and to everyone who says the US is going broke well stop and think our Navy even if we go broke wont just disapear.

we have some newer stuff that is in the works and is already paid for, that plus what we have in active service and in mothball makes for one hell of a navy.

Good post thanks from one American who keeps his eyes open

[edit on 30-11-2008 by SLAYER69]

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 12:55 PM by hadjimagnet

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
reply to post by C0bzz

People think that subs look like the movies... Military ships are not designed to be pretty.. They are designed to kill.. China is a very foremadable adversary.. and so is the Big Bear... Just pull up population stats on both.. and put together military power... I doubt the U.S would want to play with them.... We pick on smaller countries that are incapable of fighting back.. Like Iraq..

Iraq incapable of fighting back, lol? They had one of the largest militaries in the world during the first gulf war. They still had a military during the second. It was just western forces were vastly superior compared to them. No country will fight another they don’t have a clear advantage over.

Your logic is flawed. A war between Russia, China and the US would probably go nuclear, biological, and chemical.

China is not battle tested. To have a good military one must fight wars. Now China will rise to match the US (so will India / Europe.) Doesn’t mean the US will not be powerful, just a multi polar world. Feel lucky you live on this side of the pond.

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:04 PM by blowfishdl

Originally posted by hadjimagnet
Feel lucky you live on this side of the pond.

My point from the beginning. Not a fan of China to put it politely. Not a fan of communism either.

With China being militarily dormant it's hard to say how big of a "power" they are, but if we want to make bets today I'm sticking with the USA whether or not we are in a recession.

In fact, we are in a recession because of the amount of money that has been fueled into military weapons and war. What's China's war resume look like?

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:06 PM by imdeceived

I totally agree with everything you said above! The chinese navy is still a long way to matching the Brits and US Navy. Also, the brits and US are way ahead with modern naval tactics and training wich is normal considering their history in that field.
And the global military forces of china haven't been in any modern conflict so no one knows how they'd fare. So far, they're only a '''paper military'', if you guys know what I mean by that.

However, like you said they seem to be on the right track.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by imdeceived]

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:07 PM by hadjimagnet

I believe the US could currently defeat any major competent power. Do you mean in terms of purely attacking from the sea? We have bases everywhere. The US is the most combat EXP force, and that is very important. Though, we have been focusing too much on COIN operations. You also list some countries which militaries are in shambles.

Frankly I don't care much for air craft carries. They are huge expensive floating targets. China has an obsession with sinking them and missile tech always out paces defensive.

The good thing about Iraq and Afghanistan (there are few) is that we have an enlisted and officers corps with really good people now. People wondered what was going to happen when the Vietnam era officers retired and we got our answer.

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:20 PM by elevatedone

*** On Topic and Civil Posts Only ***

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:23 PM by Mr Gunter

70% of all Chinese exports are for overseas brands.

Name one, just one, great Chinese brand.

China's greatest asset is it's cheap labour. In 15 years time that'll move to Africa.

So will the Western brands and their factories.

International IP laws will be strengthened by then, so copy-cat Chinese brands will fail to capture the global market.

Then the term 'Made in China' really will be associated with poor quality goods.

About that time an entire generation will be wondering where their FMCG goods, their promised increase in quality of life - as promised by the government/junta/party/thugs - and also made aware of by friends whom were studying English in overseas countries, hasn't appeared.

To a large degree, China is a growing version of the USA. An unsustainable country with unsustainable aspirations.

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:28 PM by blowfishdl

No, I am not knowledgeable on 2009 military systems; this is obvious.

I do call it how I see it. These military vehicles look nothing more than American rip-offs from old and stolen technology. It's like buying knock-offs from China that aren't the real American Made thing. The knock-offs look very similar but are always made with less pure materials and always fall apart.

Do the Chinese even have aircraft carriers?

What are their flight capabilities? Stealth aircraft like the B-2A?

GPS and Laser targeted missile systems?

It seems everything China has militarily it has stolen the technology from the USA and attempted poorly to re-create them.

How China Steals U.S. Military Technology - Popular Mechanics

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:47 PM by imdeceived

Originally posted by blowfishdl
No, I am not knowledgeable on 2009 military systems; this is obvious.

I do call it how I see it. These military vehicles look nothing more than American rip-offs from old and stolen technology. It's like buying knock-offs from China that aren't the real American Made thing. The knock-offs look very similar but are always made with less pure materials and always fall apart.

Do the Chinese even have aircraft carriers?

What are their flight capabilities? Stealth aircraft like the B-2A?

GPS and Laser targeted missile systems?

It seems everything China has militarily it has stolen the technology from the USA and attempted poorly to re-create them.

How China Steals U.S. Military Technology - Popular Mechanics

OMG!

1-We already told you, this thread is not a pissing contest.

2-We already acknowledged the US armed forces and technology is superior is most areas (if not all) to the Chinese. But then again, its not the point of this thread.

3-No, chinese don't have aircraft carriers. They don't have stealth either. So? (refer to point 1 and 2 above)

4-Chinese do have GPS and laserguided missiles. They have something similar to the JDAM which is kind of old itself. So they are using 2 decade old technology. (FT-3 bomb)

5-We already know the Chinese have an extended networks of spies. And yes they reversed engineered (or are trying to) most US technology. So far, the only succes we can SEE is their AGEIS versions. The truth is, most countries are trying to steal each others secret.

6- What can you contribute to this discussion?

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:55 PM by blowfishdl

reply to post by imdeceived

I can obviously still contribute my opinion and continue asking questions to benefit my own knowledge and test my own opinion against your knowledge. This is, after all the place to discuss our opinions on the Chinese Fleet 2008 is it not?

Thank you for responding, but no thank you towards the sarcastic responses. You might as well be civil because I'm not going anywhere.

Your answers did indeed help me out however. It can now be concluded that the Chinese military technological capability does not match the U.S. military technological capability. This is all that I intended to bring to the table from the beginning of the discussion but my opinion is "taken with a grain of salt" from now on so thank you for providing the conclusive evidence for me.

Why Chinese Military Technology Does Not Match Up:
1. No aircraft carriers.
2. No stealth technology.
3. Most technology is given to them by Russian aide or stolen from USA

China does however have one thing going for them...

YouTube Link

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 02:04 PM by Orwells Ghost

Originally posted by blowfishdl

It seems everything China has militarily it has stolen the technology from the USA and attempted poorly to re-create them.

How China Steals U.S. Military Technology - Popular Mechanics

Are you aware that the Chinese invented gunpowder? Gunpowder that was used in every war the USA has ever fought. Shame on the USA for stealing China's intellectual property. To bad for the Chinese they didn't think to patent the stuff, eh?

In case you can't tell I'm being facetious.Now on to the topic at hand.

Given their lack of carriers and apparent carrier development, long range power projection does not seem to be on China's list of priorities. So those in the Americas can rest easy for the time being; I don't think China will be storming the beaches in Cali or BC any time soon. I'd be more worried about their cheap goods and not so cheap SLBM's.

China seems to be adopting a two pronged approach to their naval development. The first is deterrence, hence the new missile subs. Boomers can dish out MAD to anyone who decides that China's right to exist is in question. The second is local force projection. Taiwan, Japan, the Korea's and the Philippines are all in China's sphere of influence. There is no need for carriers if your targets are all right next door. China's Navy is tasked with enforcing their will in the region, not straddling the globe with their naval might.

Now I'm not picking sides or making moral judgments, this is just the situation as I see it. China has no intent of fighting the USA, not toe to toe anyways. For the moment, economic and cyber warfare seem to be quite effective. As American influence in the South and Western Pacific wanes, I expect that China and her Navy will have no trouble filling the power vacuum. That's the Navy we are seeing here, clearly no match for the Royal Navy or the US Navy, but it doesn't have to be. A more telling comparison of Chinese naval power would be against the Russian and Indian Navies.

Thoughts? Am I way off base here?

reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 02:15 PM by FredT

AHEM

Please stay on topic.

The OP was kind enough to post pictures of the PLAN here for discussion. Please stick to it.

Thanks