the pla is its own worst enemy. ever try feeding an army of 200+ million? they might be bad ass in china but the logistics outside the country is a nightmare. not to mention their economy is based on manufacturing cheap goods that we consume. but when we stop consuming they stop producing. on hand feeds the other.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by middleclasssoldier]

China White shows us the advances that the Chinese Navy has made and continues to make. Many of their vessels are new and they are learning to do thiings that will make them a formidable force in the future.
During Mao's reign, they tried out backyard steel mills, read the little Red Book, pretended to have continuing revolution, and castigated their intellectuals by forcing them into re-education camps. Mao wasted many lives for his own ego and fantasies. Now rid of that selfish Dictator, China has evolved. They have become a leading producer of high technology. Their military first lived with older Soviet weapons, then improved them, and now design many of their own. Their Navy was mainly patrol boats, now it is becoming a blue water navy.
Do not dismiss their Navy and other military forces so lightly. If you look at the US Intel document linked to in this thread you will see a photo of an UNREP refueling at sea. Note that the ships are steaming. During the cold war and into the 70's, at least, the Soviets had to go dead in the water to refuel; not a good position to be in with submarines nearby.
China is now a world industrial power and wants to become a world military power. I have no doubt that they will succeed, the only question is when.

How come youse guys keep posting these pictures over and over?



They're boring, we get it! Jeez.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by TylerKing]

Those that continue to insist the Chinese navy is a piece of garbage and that all chinese are communists - have you ever even been to China?

Let me tell you this - they are very capitalistic, even more so that for example the people's republic of Kalifornia (you don't have to build up 200 pages of paperwork to fire someone).

Furthermore, have you ever driven a Chinese build Audi? Drives better than most Chryslers I've driven and is more reliable (yes I used to have a Daimler Chrysler E55 AMG that broke down ALL the time).

Have you ever shot a Norinco Mak 90 (AK47 variant)? Mine shoots WAY better than my Ruger mini 30...

You really think the Chinese are that far behind with build quality and economic growth? Think again...

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by Ferengi
That's how you know it's crap.

Beggers can't be choosers. If you can only afford to buy cheap products its your prerogative, you get what you pay for. China makes cheap products for the finacially challenged like yourself and they also make the majority of the worlds high tech equipment

First I would like to say China is a great place. I have been, and I had a lot of fun. Second, America still by far has the largest economy in the world. We import a ton of your products and you guys give us money so we can keep your economy going. Although it is becoming obvious as of late that China is becoming more in more concerned as they just stated recently that their future in exports are of great concern. If China had so much money they wouldn't have to steal many of the worlds patents and illegally produce fake mock products...IE the Iphone. Another thing being I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove with this post, but America has some of the best "unknown" technology in the world. It's going to be awhile if and that's a big if china ever catches up. China has to large of a population and if they want to keep growing and join the top ranks in their world their economy will have to keep growing. And even though China had been expected to grow for a while in past reports by economist that has been in question as of late. If your economy slows to a growth of less than 5% which is half of what it was a year ago it's been said that the Chinese government will panic. Just too many people. Sure you have a ton of troops, but you guys can't mobilize enough to make a difference anyways. All in all it doesn't matter. If it ever came down to desperation in war between any two country's with nukes numbers, or training or, anything like that I highly doubt will matter. Unless the U.S. has any secret superior technology that would blow anything out of the water...

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
The Nazis lost because of a crucial mistake...

If one can trace the Nazi's mistake ( hitler's really as he made the decisions) to one it would be declaring war on the US. It's well know that Roosevelt were desperately trying to involve the US in the war but were meeting with extremely stiff opposition at home which wouldn't give him his war despite American destroyers getting sunk and or damage/Americans killed in the Atlantic. As it is it took a oil embargo against Japan, massive provocations in the Atlantic and the sacrifice of the battleships at Pearl to start a war with Japan ( which he hoped to escalate to a war with Germany) with the declaration of war by Hitler making things a great deal easier.

Without Hitler's declaration lend lease to the USSR would have been much harder to arrange at a time when the Japanese had the run of the Eastern Pacific and this alone would/could have had a telling influence towards the end of 1942.

they tried to invade Russia during winter... same mistake Napolean made..(history does repeat itself) Russia is huge..

Neither Napoleon or Hitler invaded Russia during winter but both arguable ( more so for Napoleon) started their invasions too close to the winter seasons. One should however understand or remember that both reached Moscow and in Napoleon's case occupied it. If Hitler did not dilute the central drive for Moscow by diverting critical mechanized and armor formations i am confident that the Germans could have encircled or captured Moscow before Winter set in thus creating a massive strategic and logistical crisis for the Russians which in my knowledge would have been sufficient to prevent a sufficiently large scale Russian winter offensive around Moscow. Either way I think Hitler made the 'right' decision ( having started the war and committed so many atrocities already) to take on the most formidable threat to Germany in the summer and fall of 1940.

and to cross that and to try to get to moscow during the winter is a death sentence during those times..

Again this is simply not true. Russian live in these areas and so can anyone with proper supplies and clothing. One can argue that logistics can't cope but to suggest that it's a 'death sentence' just isn't true.

Technology was not the reason.. it was a strategic mistake... had Hitler not made that mistake.. I am sure we would be speaking German right now..

Yes. As i have outlined i can agree with the basic analysis that Germany's defeat came down to strategic blundering after the overwhelmingly superior Wehrmacht provided Germany with almost every opportunity to create a European fortress that would have proved impossible to invade for the remnants of the Anglo American alliance. Hitler had the chance to reduce the USSR to a rump state fighting a series of admittedly large scale rear guard actions in 1942 but instead he threw away strategic gains by simply lacking the boldness that he so frequently spoke about. As some authors have pointed out in the final analysis the battle of wills ( as much as one can reduce world wars to the willpower of dictators) were won by Stalin, not Hitler.

In summary i suppose the distinction might not seem so obvious so i will just restate that this wasn't a question of attacking too late but diverting forces to 'secure' a victory ( from army group center) that had not yet been achieved by isolating the strategic hub that was Moscow. This is more obvious in retrospect but the lack of defenses in front of army group center in late August and early September 1941 were not unknown to von Bock and others.

Stellar

It only takes ONE to take out Washington, D.C.

Originally posted by chinawhite

How is that supporting the Chinese military?. I posted a list which I always do to inform people about the Chinese Navy. You took it as an attempt to "brag" about their military which was not the point of this thread.

Not to jump into the flame fest but what WAS the point of this thread if not to boast about the Chinese Navy? I was curious to that as well as checking out the Navy (any Navy is cool to me)


Just as an observation, the way you regard "Americans", the American capability (or lack thereof) in your subsequent postings goes along way to others thinking you ARE "boasting".

Plus add to that, you tried to show you weren't being censored by posting a screenshot of a NON Chinese google gateway, meaning you werent actually in China so you could not prove a lack of censorship, but you tried anyway.. that shows a need to propegandize it and to me shows disinformation.

That

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I am glad the Chinese are spending money on things that matter rather than helping the hundreds of millions of people who are impoverished.

If i didn't know your posting record i could agree but since i do i can but point out the health and wealth ( or lack of both) that western neo-'liberal' imperialism have brought to the third world including China. Were it not for the devastation as caused by foreign invaders and foreign threats the Chinese government might very well have spent this money trying to pacify it's people with better living standards instead of directing it towards a defense necessitated by the US and others.

Or teach Chinese people not to spit and pick their noses in public.

Clearly this is a huge concern while US armed and financial instruments devastate countries and continents.

Then again, the Chinese government learned from the best (U.S. government)...not.

Their defensive thinking were surely inspired by external threats as exemplified and frequently exercised by the US national security apparatus.

Stellar

I wont start quaking in my boots just yet. They can have as many Destroyers and Subs as they want.

True 'Gun Boat' diplomacy and Military projection is done with Aircraft Carriers, and great big enormous ones at that. The Chinese has a rusty old Soviet one.

Even if they build a fleet to rival the US, it has taken nearly 70 years of development and training to be the Force it is today so we are ok for a while peeps.


Plus the 'Red Dragon' is over estimated. Its biggest resourse is its people who apart from a lucky few (granted million) live hand to mouth, its economy and power are overhyped.



[edit on 1-12-2008 by patton]

Just some comments..

Many members here simply label the Chinese a "Threat".. what is this a "Minority Report" ? People shouldn't prejudge others. During the 13th century, when the Chinese sailed a great fleet around the world - how many colonies did they conquer, how many people have they civilized and enslaved ? Why do you people think that the Chinese will act like a US Bully ? Because the "Free and Balanced" propaganda news tell you that ?

Let's see...

A "Regional Threat" even as they label them as a "Brown Water Navy" with less than satifactory ships. A Threat to Japan, when Japan has the world second most modern and largest navy and a defense budget many times that of China for Decades. In fact, it was the Japanese who was terrorising China for centuries, from Barany Pirating to WWII. CHINA has never invaded Japan thru out ancient history.

A "World threat" when they are rich enough to have a better navy to protect their shippings and Foriegn Interest. Even as a foriegn Navy, thousands of mile away home sailing off her coast, and have EP3 12 miles off her coast. This Foriegn country even supports Chinese seperatists, dissidents and even terrorist such as "East Turkestan".

An untested "Paper Military" because they did not "regime change" or Invade/occupy any third world countries. All 20th century war which China fought was simply at their own borders.

Come on, China does not even have a military base off their border. You Treat them as an enemy - they will be your enemy. Maybe the Chinese should go around the world installing "Freedom and Capitalism" as an excuse... and what does it matter, when everything China does is perceptively negative.

Originally posted by gormly
Not to jump into the flame fest but what WAS the point of this thread if not to boast about the Chinese Navy?

The same quite possibly unhealthy obsession with weapons most if not all persons who read or post here shares? Isn't any other motive largely benign compared to that root problem?

I was curious to that as well as checking out the Navy (any Navy is cool to me)

'Cool', indeed.

Just as an observation, the way you regard "Americans", the American capability (or lack thereof) in your subsequent postings goes along way to others thinking you ARE "boasting".

It's only boasting if it doesn't involve diatribes about just how superior everything US related is. Is it not funny how the bias one group presumes as foundation for all thinking ( US uber alles) is despised in others?

Plus add to that, you tried to show you weren't being censored by posting a screenshot of a NON Chinese google gateway, meaning you werent actually in China so you could not prove a lack of censorship, but you tried anyway..

At least your not paranoid or anything.

that shows a need to propegandize it and to me shows disinformation.

That

And i am not surprised that you seem to believe that anyone who says anything positive about the Chinese navy MUST be in the disinformation business. I mean what else would someone with a Chinese heritage do on ATS but spread disinformation? I suppose with a sufficiently twisted misinformed mind that question comes up pretty darn quickly.

Its been my experience that the mind of the self styled pseudo skeptic is far more interesting than the mind of the average ignorant/misinformed posted so you should try to excuse my fascination&involvement, despite my better judgement, leading to this response to you.

Have a nice day and take care to avoid all those suspicious looking Chinese folk!

Stellar

[edit on 1-12-2008 by StellarX]