India Under Terror Attack! At least ten people killed in Mumbai shootings: TV (now 125 +)

reply to post by detachedindividual


well said..
Hope it happens that way... nobody wants war.. but nobody trusts Pakistan to really come on board with real commitments because they just don't have consensus internally..
Its a very sticky situation...

Originally posted by Daedalus3
reply to post by hitmen

 

because as of today, they would lose a conventional armed conflict with India in a matter of days.. They don't have the money or capability to run a war with India now..

Even so the terrorist strike has only heightened India defence, unless they managed to take over the capital or something

... Pakistan wouldnt use people to conduct a terrorist attack like this, and allow themselves to be captured, questioned and to give up the ISI.

There is no sense in Pakistan deliberatley conducting attacks against India, such brazen attacks. Why would you want to go to war 'again' with a nuclear neighbour? which is surely what a pakistani moulded terrorist attack would mean?...


Im telling ya, these people did this knowing full well as soon as they mentioned ISI, the indian government and media would eat it up, and spew it out.

This is the Talibans attempt at telling Pakistan,

'' either back off us, and stop the US From hitting us, or we will force your hand against India ''

They went in to make it appear as if it was Pakistan, either to stop Pakistans resistance, or to make them look else where.

Im telling ya, these people did this knowing full well as soon as they mentioned ISI, the indian government and media would eat it up, and spew it out. This is the Talibans attempt at telling Pakistan, '' either back off us, and stop the US From hitting us, or we will force your hand against India '' They went in to make it appear as if it was Pakistan, either to stop Pakistans resistance, or to make them look else where.

Very good point.
The way things are looking the media is helping spread people's anger.
This may well lead to an even messier situation if we are not careful.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by raptorinvictus]

Originally posted by hitmen

With regard to your post above I dont understand:
1) what is the difference between a formal or informal war engagement
2) Even if Indian keep winning wars, how is it relevant to this incident?
3) Either way, a pre-emptive strike still put people on the defensive and they can trace it to you anyway

4) Is token the name of a person?
I will appreciate it if you can make put some links. thanks.

1. "Formal war" is an overt state of warfare between two states. Recent examples include Georgia vs Russia, and India vs Pakistan in 1999 (Kargil War). This is a more honourable method of warfare, as opposed to terrorist attacks on civilians. In formal warfare, only state combatants are supposed to be targeted and killed. Civilians and innocents are never, ever supposed to be targeted- the violation of that "rule" is what makes terrorists despicable and disgusting. If the LeT targeted military installations, they would be more respected.

2. Because it explains why the ISI engages in terrorism- their state cannot defeat India in a no holds barred, full contact war. So instead they radicalise young, disaffected muslims from Kashmir and send them in to kill unarmed civilians in order to achieve their goals (which I mentioned in my last post).

3. Possibly. It depends on the nature of the retaliation. If India uses RAW for targeted assassinations of the rogue ISI elements which committed this, then its possible that the issue could be resolved without major warfare.
If you meant a "pre-emptive strike" by Pakistan then I dont think that terminology is appropriate since a pre-emptive strike should only be on military targets. Attacking civilians is not acceptable.

4.Token is a Pakistani guy on ATS who supports the actions of the terrorists due to his hatred of Hindus and the West. Don't worry, he will soon be here to make some intelligent statement or the other (!)

No specific links... read the wiki articles on the Indo-Pak conflict series, especially the 1971 and Kargil Wars.

Taj Hotel was left pretty bad




It's really a shame
It was such a beautiful landmark

[edit on 29-11-2008 by ModernAcademia]

reply to post by Agit8dChop


That certainly seems like a logical analysis at first glance.

However the nuances of the Indo-Pak conflict are numerous.

The ISI in Pakistan is controlled by elements who thrive on a state of perpetual tension between India and Pakistan. The ISI is supposedly widely supported in Pakistan and is the most powerful organisation in the entire state.

You also have to compound that with the fact that the attacks will not have a logical objective. The terrorists and the ISI have no objective in attacking civilians but to spread fear and essentially kill Indians. It has been that way for decades now... cross border terrorism in Kashmir is routine.

I think we have to remember that the terrorist are inherently illogical since they are fanatics. They won't be thinking in terms of strategic objectives, but in terms of how many people they can kill and how "glorious" they can appear before being killed.

Its difficult for a third party observer to understand this, but you may begin to get a flavour if you read token's posts in this thread. The hatred towards India is ingrained into Pakistanis to the point of illogicality. They will attack and bait India regardless of the consequences, and regardless of the fact that their armed forces would simply capitulate in full scale warfare.

Thus I think it would be wrong to try and analyse the actions of the terrorists and the ISI from a logical viewpoint. Fire has to be fought with fire in this case. If the trail leads to the ISI command, the ISI has to answer for their actions. If the trail leads to rogue elements in the ISI, they must be handed over to India to be put on trial.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

Originally posted by hitmen

With regard to your post above I dont understand:
1) what is the difference between a formal or informal war engagement
2) Even if Indian keep winning wars, how is it relevant to this incident?
3) Either way, a pre-emptive strike still put people on the defensive and they can trace it to you anyway

4) Is token the name of a person?
I will appreciate it if you can make put some links. thanks.

1. "Formal war" is an overt state of warfare between two states. Recent examples include Georgia vs Russia, and India vs Pakistan in 1999 (Kargil War). This is a more honourable method of warfare, as opposed to terrorist attacks on civilians. In formal warfare, only state combatants are supposed to be targeted and killed. Civilians and innocents are never, ever supposed to be targeted- the violation of that "rule" is what makes terrorists despicable and disgusting. If the LeT targeted military installations, they would be more respected.

2. Because it explains why the ISI engages in terrorism- their state cannot defeat India in a no holds barred, full contact war. So instead they radicalise young, disaffected muslims from Kashmir and send them in to kill unarmed civilians in order to achieve their goals (which I mentioned in my last post).

3. Possibly. It depends on the nature of the retaliation. If India uses RAW for targeted assassinations of the rogue ISI elements which committed this, then its possible that the issue could be resolved without major warfare.
If you meant a "pre-emptive strike" by Pakistan then I dont think that terminology is appropriate since a pre-emptive strike should only be on military targets. Attacking civilians is not acceptable.

4.Token is a Pakistani guy on ATS who supports the actions of the terrorists due to his hatred of Hindus and the West. Don't worry, he will soon be here to make some intelligent statement or the other (!)

No specific links... read the wiki articles on the Indo-Pak conflict series, especially the 1971 and Kargil Wars.

Here is what I dont understand

1) In my personal opinion ISI will not benefit if Pakistan is attacked as they will be channeling $ into the war and not into the ISI.

2) What is RAW?

3)The point I am making is that the "pre-emptive strike" BY Pakistan on India is not successful. Ultimately, it only pushes them to the brink of war. so how can Pakistan benefit? I dont get it.

I only took note of token's post and not his name. so sorry abt that. too busy analyzing contents.

Originally posted by mikesingh

Originally posted by infinite

Yes! Enough is enough and India needs to respond! Those terrorist have killed more than 300 people including Americans, British, Israeli etc. And they need to respond NOW in self defense. This is a brazen attack by Pakistan on the sovereignty of India which is unacceptable. This is an act of WAR. Period!

-The most india will do is pile its artillary at the borders and fire of coupla shells for a few weeks.

OR

-Threat Pakistan with nukes.

India's so called 'war' is merely limited to its words.Pakistan will not hesitate to use its nukes if it feels that india and its 'allies' are gona blast it back to stone age.Just 1 or 2 nukes will be enough to cripple india and its 60 years of hard work while there are plenty of muslims around the world that can counter balance pakistan's population annihilation.

Token is a Pakistani guy on ATS who supports the actions of the terrorists due to his hatred of Hindus and the West. Don't worry, he will soon be here to make some intelligent statement or the other (!)

...or an ISI agent.

*whistles*

I'm not implying anything, just thinking out loud.

ya Token india's threats are limited to it's words
despite winning the war in the past LOL

this is not about who has a superior military
this is about who is right and wrong

but since you know Pakistan is wrong
you will focus on military defense since you have no other defense

[edit on 29-11-2008 by ModernAcademia]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

Originally posted by hitmen

4.Token is a Pakistani guy on ATS who supports the actions of the terrorists due to his hatred of Hindus and the West. Don't worry, he will soon be here to make some intelligent statement or the other (!)

Well you can't expect me to support india's attempt to ethenically cleanse muslims in kashmir,gujrat,hydrebad,deccan? Do you?

I am a pakistani who stands with Pakistan as indians would stand with hindustan.

Originally posted by t0ken
Well you can't expect me to support india's attempt to ethenically cleanse muslims in kashmir,gujrat,hydrebad,deccan? Do you?

I am a pakistani who stands with Pakistan as indians would stand with hindustan.

You need to inform yourself better
there are muslim terroists in the world
does that mean that all muslims are terroists?

if not then SOME hindus attackign muslims in Gujrat shouldn't make u hate all hindus

India is a secular country that welcomes muslims
Pakistan would never do the same for hindus

Plus hindus aren't trying to do any ethnic cleansing in Kashmir
It's their land and they want to keep it

Kashmiris don't even like Pakistanis

do ur homework

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
ya Token india's threats are limited to it's words
despite winning the war in the past LOL

Yeh kargil would have been in Pakistani hands now if US didn't get invovled.

but since you know Pakistan is wrong
you will focus on military defense since you have no other defense

You're right,india is totally innocent its all Pakistans fault for killing muslims in kashmir,gujrat,hydrebad,deccan etc..

Pakistan's state backed terrorism has been occurring for years in India. To suggest the ISI or the Pakistan governments were not sympathetic to the ISI means you are purposely promoting an agenda.

I knew it would be only a matter of time before Hizb Ut Tahrir arrived at ATS

Jeez guys, you've been speculating back and forth just about EVERY possibility, eh? Look, it's really not that complicated in my eyes....

1. I haven't really seen anything that truly points to these guys being trained by anybody other than probably rag tag training camps in the tribal regions of Pakistan. AK's are NOT hard rifles to operate, at all. In fact they are the easiest by far, IMO. I learned to field strip and clean mine in about 15 minutes. And what about those railway pictures shows that kid being highly trained?? He was walking through the place holding his AK with one hand like the Terminator, not like a tactical professional.

2. The news coverage has been ALL over the place based on what the Indian authorities were releasing, and I believe that was very intentional. They even said they believed the attackers could have been trying to gain intel and such off news reports.

3. As I've said before, I can't see this being initiated by the Pak government at all. They have NO control over the area that these guys were probably trained in. The tribal regions need to be brought into control. The ONE thing that Pakistan is doing wrong, and has been for a long time, is not bringing law to that lawless region or allowing countries that have been attacked FROM that region to go in and clean house.

Token, do Pakistanis feel the need to protect the religious extremists that seem hell bent on bringing war to your country?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by t0ken

does that mean that all muslims are terroists?

Exactly! If someone farts in india,does that automatically mean that its ISI and Pakistan's fault?

if not then SOME hindus attackign muslims in Gujrat shouldn't make u hate all hindus

These extremist hindus were supported by hindu politicians and hindu police.

Pakistan would never do the same for hindus

There are also hindus and sikhs in pakistan,might not be in great numbers but that's a different matter.Ever heard about hindus,sikhs,christians being ethnically cleansed in pakistan with the support of police and politicians?

Kashmiris don't even like Pakistanis

Why doesn't india let Kashmir go to form its own independant state if kashmiris dislike both india and pakistan?The hindu pandits feel that they own kashmir when its a muslim majority.


[edit on 29-11-2008 by t0ken]

Alright guys, I'm sorry for being so combative with you all last night over this. I apologize.
I just can't believe the implications of this attack! It seems to me that even the rogue elements within Pakistan would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS to allow this to take place! And to have them trained by the Paki NAVY!

Holy cow, the stuff is going to hit the fan. Pakistan will be locked down from two different sides. The Americans will move in as will the Indians. This could be the beginning of something even bigger than that. And god help everyone in that region if that is the case.

IMO, this goes well beyond any "terror" attack I've ever heard of. As said earlier, this is an act of WAR.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by Jay-in-AR]

Originally posted by t0ken
Ever heard about hindus,sikhs,christians being ethnically cleansed in pakistan with the support of police and politicians?

LOL, oh i've heard much worse than just that

Originally posted by t0ken
Why doesn't india let Kashmir go to form its own independant state if kashmiris dislike both india and pakistan?The hindu pandits feel that they own kashmir when its a muslim majority.

Hindu Pandits????????
Kashmir is a beautiful place and contributes to india's economy

Its sad for kashmiris I agree on that and something needs to be done
but Pakistan should have nothing to do with that resolution
so get out of the way

once again kashmiris don't like Pakistan
and muslim indians don't like Pakistan because of the partition

so why do act as if they are on your side?

Originally posted by infinite
Pakistan's state backed terrorism has been occurring for years in India. To suggest the ISI or the Pakistan governments were not sympathetic to the ISI means you are purposely promoting an agenda.

Like i said before whatever ISI does benefits Pakistan.It's an intelligence agency working to defend its own country.Please don't make it sound like Al CiAda headquarters.

I knew it would be only a matter of time before Hizb Ut Tahrir arrived at ATS

If you compare my views to theirs,you would say i am a very 'moderate muslim'.I am actually surprised that UK has not banned these kind of organisations, these guys do demos in London,work with youth and even work in colleges and universities in UK.I am against them due to some islamic beliefs they have and their ideoligy is too extreme.