Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
So basically you are saying they didn't get their ideas from the Christian Churches they probably attend, but from their own imaginations, because they are not Catholic?

Briefly, yes. Some of the principles were taken from Christianity, their interpretations of these principles, seperated from the Church and the Spirit as guarantor, from their "imagination." The abundance of "Christian" denominations is a contradiction of Christ's appeal that we should be one and within many of those denominations there is a laxity of belief which leaves it up to the "me".
---

Originally posted by badmedia
So you support gay rights? Again I'll ask, what commandment are they breaking.

No, I don't even accept there are such "rights", wants and desires yes, but not "rights." They, if actively pursuing their desires, are breaking the commandments explained by St Paul in Roman's chapter 1 and by Christ in Matthew 15. Off course, as this thread is prefaced on the disposabilty of Paul and the human machinations in editing, compiling and interpreting the Bible I don't expect those to be acceptable to those gnostics who know.

Which commandments am I breaking? Please let me know. What commandments am I dismissing?

See above. Indeed its more an ignoring than a dismissal.

It's called looking at the sin rather than the sinner. It is not my place to judge others. More importantly here, why is judging others allowed in your personal faith when you claim. There is a difference in having an opinion and judging someone.

It can be your opinion that being gay is wrong. Nothing wrong about that. It's your choice.

You judge them when you put you them down, do not love them and treat them in manner you wouldn't want to be treated in. That is wrong, you are now putting yourself above another to make the choice for them.

Indeed, something I have expressed at some length elsewhere, this is not about judging individuals but actions. It is not my "opinion" it is the revealed law of God manifest in the Natural Law, Scripture, Tradiotion and Magesterium. It is indeed my choice, it is everyone's choice, I choose to submit in humility to a wisdom greater than my own imaginings.
You are presumptious in saying I do not love them, it is in love and compassion and the unity of human broken nature that I speak out on such matters where required. I am mnot putting myself above anyone, I am putting the teaching and law of God above us all.

---

Originally posted by dalan.
I don't think you understand what badmedia is trying to say at all. He never once stated that "we can do whatever we want", or "we can choose to follow whichever commandment suites our fancy".

Comprehension problems much?

Above see.

reply to post by GRANDWORLDDRAMA


God 'nuked' Sodom and Gomorrah, according to the Bible, because the townspeople were generally wicked (never minding of course the children, infants, and newborns in the cities). They had turned away from God, and cared nothing for anyone but themselves.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by GRANDWORLDDRAMA

 

God 'nuked' Sodom and Gomorrah, according to the Bible, because the townspeople were generally wicked (never minding of course the children, infants, and newborns in the cities). They had turned away from God, and cared nothing for anyone but themselves.

Just in case you missed it, Jude disagreed with you.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:4).

Fornication and going after strange flesh are the examples. Not that they are just 'wicked'. Please, don't downplay exactly WHY they were destroyed. Scripture is clear and I'll be blunt. Jude who was Jesus's Half brother > your opinion. Fornication and the going after strange flesh is God's last straw before he judges.

However, wickedness as depicted in Ezekiel is certainly a byproduct of this type of behavior condoned by society. We see it today in the USA.

I ask the question simply. If you go against God's law, and natural law, what evil can you possibly NOT do?

I can't think of any, can you?

I just like Jesus, whereas, Paul is too sexist for me and reflects the political views of the Church.

Edit to Add: there a many people who still believe in Jesus, though they no longer believe in any mainstream denomination or much of the Bible.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by mystiq]

Aparently most Christians are exoteric (87%).They argue all the time about scripture (milk). The New Testiment clearly states that the letter kills and the sprit is life. As long as you argue about the milk you can not recieve the meat. Jesus was the man, Christ is the consusness, It is a parodox. If you do not know what a pardox is you will argue all your life and never see the sprit within. You have to not look at what was wrote but to what was happening at the time. The Christ consusness was what ever person is to achieve. From the book of genesis to revelation it is about looking within not at the exteror world. Thats what was given to us a the begining the devine seed within. The human EGO guards the gateway.
The door is not locked.

Originally posted by saint4God
The authority over some things, not authority above God nor equal to Christ.

Depends on if you are reading the published bible, or the Apocrypha in addition.

Originally posted by badmedia
God is internal.

This isn't what Christ said.


He said as much in the Gospel of Thomas.

Paul teaches that God is sovereign and that we should not be spending our time trying to bring the powers that be to our sense of justice.

Paul teaches that God is seperate from man, that he is external and that man cannot be authority of himself or else he is damning himself by ignoring god's will and command.

Paul teaches subservience and slavery.

True power does come from God. Satan believes his power is independant of God's control, which of course is not true. Reading the whole book gives good clarification to these points.

The WHOLE book? The bible is NOT the "WHOLE" book. There's enough to fill seven or eight additional bibles that used to be part of the religion.

The book as published and pushed upon people for the last 1500 years is NOT the word of God. It is the word of the Church who claim to be authority for God.

It is the words of they who chose the message they would impart to the people, a message of seperation from the divine, a message of original sin and the inferiority of mankind in their need for God to pardon them.

Incorrect statement about Paul, he had a lot of very liberating things to say including:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

Free will existed in Genesis, whether that's Jesus' doing or not I suppose would be a separate debate.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

The Thousand Fold Path is truer in God's spirit than Paul's teachings... Paul teaches a universal sameness "We are all one" while pleading for others to "Come to agreement, as we are all one".

He is preaching solidarity in thought, and exclusion of the different. He is preaching sameness and homogenous belief, rather than that every soul is divine and has a path to succession.

He is preaching that we are to reach salvation through Christ, but not through Christ's example!

The Cross, as an aside, is an abomination of religion. It celebrates a Man's death and resurrection by worshiping an Idol representing intolerance and faithlessness over the wise and spiritual teachings of an entire life of holy deeds.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by TheColdDragon]

Truthfully? There is no diffrence. Paulianism and Christianism is FOREVER one in the same. Too many FALSELY assume "Christianism" to be the religion of the "Christ", but it is not. It is nearer to IDOL worshup then it is a relationship with God our Father.

Paul isn't to "blame". He thought Christianity would be more well accepted and longer projected by associating it with common mythologies of the day and the age. And perhaps it was this one movement that did so well to bring the story of jesus accross the years.

However, it's come close to the time if not past it that the understanding needs grow.

Without going into tons of research, there is quite a difference. Early Christians were not fixed in which scripts they followed. There were many blends of gnostic beliefs and other books. It was in a certain year, for a certain political reason that the Church proper restricted what would be followed officially, and they chose their spokesperson, Paul, as a model for Christianity, purging the believers through persecution and death (a complete opposite of anything Jesus had taught or represented). In fact, many believe that Paul was a double agent of sorts to begin with. Since its ancient stuff really, and pretty hard to prove, the main thing a person should ask themselves is, if they accept the war mongling and unjust things in the Bible. I, myself argued with many a priest and minister, and in the end, consider it flawed. But Jesus still represents service and love versus selfishness and greed.

reply to post by mystiq


although we say basicly the same thing, You're ending point needs a little refinement.

Paul was a good man. Paul was just the spindoctor of the time. It might be because of Paul's spin that christianity is a world wide religion today. Not saying this is the case, but it could be seen as such. I believe Paul looked at many posabilities and then chose the longest lasting spin.

You have to put quite the spin on a stone to skip it accross a pond of thousands of years.



The only evil left is the illusion of evil.

Some of what Paul taught is the same as Jesus.But there are other teachings,major teaching,that are contradicted.

For example:Baptism.

According to Jesus;

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16.

According to Paul;

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1 Corinthians 7:13-14.

Which is it?
Do we have to be baptized and believe to be saved,or can we be saved through our spouse's baptism and belief?




[edit on 27-11-2008 by jakyll]

Originally posted by Incarnated
although we say basicly the same thing, You're ending point needs a little refinement.

Paul was a good man. Paul was just the spindoctor of the time. It might be because of Paul's spin that christianity is a world wide religion today. Not saying this is the case, but it could be seen as such. I believe Paul looked at many posabilities and then chose the longest lasting spin.

You have to put quite the spin on a stone to skip it accross a pond of thousands of years.

The only evil left is the illusion of evil.

The Pharisees have always been considered to be moral people, that is not of issue.

Paul perverted the words and life of Jesus, and the pharisees took the seat of Jesus, just as they had done with Moses.

What we have are conflicting philosophies.

Paul, and even the powers of today believe that power and authority are signs of god. They believe they are put their by god, and as such what they do is godly. That people should always submit to authority wherever it may be. Survival of the fittest.

Jesus taught the individual people were the authority. Jesus taught that those who lived by gods law where signs of god. He actually taught anarchy, and that is why the powers of the time killed him. He threatened their power.

Now there are higher levels to this.

On a higher level the authorities are in a way put their by god. That does not however mean that those authorities are right or good. Doesn't mean you are being a good christian if you submit to the authorities and so on. You will get the leaders you deserve. If the people give in to authorities, in exchange for security and to not have to worry about their own personal responsibilities then there is no better punishment for them than to give them what they want. If you submit to authority then you had better do what that authority tells you to. You have sold your free will - that you got ripped off is the norm.

If however, you actually follow Jesus and do as he says, then the people will not be subject to these authorities. You will not support the leaders, you will understand what it takes to be free, you will not need such authorities on people.

And these things can be seen and understood without the bible in our own society. Look at the US. We have given away our responsibilities, so that we can just sit back and be happy. We have given away our freedoms - for control over others, when the price of freedom is giving it to others as well(love thy neighbor as thyself). And look at the leaders we get as a result.

People talk about if the US was founded on christian principles - YES. But it was not founded on the church. Because they knew that the church takes away religious freedom. It was however founded on freedom and the principles of Jesus. The Jefferson bible is nothing but the words of Jesus.

The country was founded in Philadelphia. Look for it in revelations. I am pretty sure this is about the US. I am also pretty sure that the key of david is the constitution. Which has been the only protection for the US from the church and others, and has kept the freedom principles of Jesus there for most people. But now more and more people are giving up on these principles. And as a result it is being shredded away. And now the US is at risk of falling. Not as a country to another country, but as a country that has lost what it stood for.

Paul is a pharisee. What people think Christianity is today is a reflection of the pharisees, and not a reflection of Jesus. And now because they are not a reflection of Jesus, people are turning against it.

And people can and do follow these philosophies with or without the bible. These are their fruits, not their image. What kills me are the people who are just blatant hypocrites. Like the people who are all upset because Christians force people into stuff. And then in response, they just want to make it all illegal, and force people into their views. Hello??? How are you different from them? All I see are the same thing. It amazes me how often people do these things. And it's all because they never look beyond their own perspective.

On a higher level, you may realize the earth is just a school. And these things happen to show you good from evil. As such, Paul and the church have a purpose. But the point is to be able to overcome it, not submit to it out of fear, where submission means blind ignorance.

So like, which level are we talking about here? Same thing in the end, yes. Same thing on the level we are talking about where people follow 1 or the other - no.

And btw, according to Jesus and according to what I've learned. Where you say Paul made Christianity what it is, Jesus says is not even needed, nor will anyone ever get real understanding from it.

Jesus says he is the only teacher(God), and that he will appear to those who are deserving in a vision or dream. He says that on a certain day - in which your life is transformed you will realize that god and Jesus are inside you.

Jesus told his followers to go out and speak the truth to people. Not to make themselves the authority/leaders. But Paul does exactly that.

As Christianity got it's rise from breaking the commandments, how is it an authority of God? It did not get their from the leaders following gods will, by who's will did it get there?

Originally posted by badmedia
Paul, and even the powers of today believe that power and authority are signs of god. They believe they are put their by god, and as such what they do is godly. That people should always submit to authority wherever it may be. Survival of the fittest.

Jesus taught the individual people were the authority. Jesus taught that those who lived by gods law where signs of god. He actually taught anarchy, and that is why the powers of the time killed him. He threatened their power.

You jaded biased video is wrong. Jesus never taught anything of the sort. Jesus very clearly defined "This world" as over here and "That world" as over there.

Render to cezar that which is cezars and unto God that which is Gods.

You want to believe the "church" is some evil controling force, but you're wrong. They ain't nothing but a bunch of men that get older and older daily and whom will meet their maker just like you. Consern yourself with what will be your lot on that day and do not busy-body yourself with the day of judgement upon another. You will all have your day of Judgement.

The Teachings of Jesus are still contained within the bible if someone is willing to look.

Originally posted by Incarnated
You jaded biased video is wrong. Jesus never taught anything of the sort. Jesus very clearly defined "This world" as over here and "That world" as over there.

Render to cezar that which is cezars and unto God that which is Gods.

You want to believe the "church" is some evil controling force, but you're wrong. They ain't nothing but a bunch of men that get older and older daily and whom will meet their maker just like you. Consern yourself with what will be your lot on that day and do not busy-body yourself with the day of judgement upon another. You will all have your day of Judgement.

The Teachings of Jesus are still contained within the bible if someone is willing to look.

The riches of a man in gods eye is knowledge and understanding. Knowledge and understanding are the other worldly gifts Jesus and God give you.

The church is among the evil in the world. Let us not forget what Jesus called those who only had a strict meaning of the scriptures. They have no understanding, and thus they broke the commandments.

The bible does contain the teachings of Jesus, but the literal word is meaningless without understanding. And you can only get that understanding from Jesus/God. Jesus says he is the only teacher, this is not a choice, this is a fact.

Jesus talks about those who will do great works in his name. He talks about how they do so in sin. In sin because they do not know Jesus, and as such they have no understanding. I shall know them by their fruits, and the fruits of the church as history has shown has been rotten.

Tell me, how can a good tree in Jesus bring forth corrupted fruit in the church? And I am not talking about the church breaking mans laws, I am talking about the church breaking god's law. The answer is simple, the church is not the fruit of Jesus.

Make excuses for it all you want. Point out the good works done in his name, while ignoring the sin do all you like. But all these works have been done in sin. The murder and persecution of those who were not christians, just as the Jews murdered and persecuted christians before then.

These authorities and such came to power through sin - thou shall NOT kill. It didn't list exceptions. Jesus didn't mention exceptions. It is a law that even GOD followed while on earth.

Ok... monkey wrench time!

Jesus was born of the Jewish Belief. That belief mandated that there was an ALL POWERFUL God, known mainly by His name Yahweh, or Jehovah in the English language.

Jehovah is the father of Jesus, and Jesus and Jehovah are one - as in SPIRIT.

Those who proclaim Jesus as their savior give thier will over to Jesus, who in turn is empowered as such by Jehovah. Those who proclaim Jesus therefore are subjecting themselves ultimately to Jehovah.

ALL SCRIPTURES ARE INSPIRED - AND ARE BENEFICIAL FOR TEACHING...

That being said, as Jesus pretty much relayed to us, it is a person's heart condition that governs their relationship with God. Teachings that emanate from a man pertaining to these things, will at very best be imperfect to the nature of Jesus' purpose. However, the true heart will discern those things that are said through that man and glean from them the message of Holy Spirit... as these things are meant to be a PERSONAL message...

A message for me, and a message for you...

That is the concept of free will, and therefore the principle of Christ's teachings. We are all of us God's Children, and possess the very essence of God's will within us.

LOVE NEVER FAILS...

Remember that... all of you!

The premise is flawed as those who wrote the bible were Jews who followed Levitican Laws. Whether Paul Epistles were included or not, is immaterial as they followed the teachings either way.

You are looking at Biblical History 2000+ years later. During Christ time, there was no OT. Meaning there was no separation of books as it was the law that people lived by. No separation took place until much later in recorded history. Even then, OT teachings are routinely used as a basis or foundation for NT teachings.

reply to post by DarkspARCS


Not really a monkey wrench but one thing to add - you are right about ALL Scripture plus truth does not fight against itself...the word does not fight against itself and the fact that believers use the word to fight and criticize each other, and put yet another "spin" on the matter comes from a private interpretation of scripture...which does not come from the Spirit but from the "spirit of the prophet which is subject to the prophet..." the fact that the word is used this way is a simple shame..... and not in the Spirit of Yeshuah, nor the letter if you want to get technical....

Originally posted by realshanti
reply to post by DarkspARCS

 

Not really a monkey wrench

but one thing to add - you are right about ALL Scripture plus truth does not fight against itself...the word does not fight against itself and the fact that believers use the word to fight and criticize each other, and put yet another "spin" on the matter comes from a private interpretation of scripture...which does not come from the Spirit but from the "spirit of the prophet which is subject to the prophet..." the fact that the word is used this way is a simple shame..... and not in the Spirit of Yeshuah, nor the letter if you want to get technical....

I don't disagree, but what you talk about the prophet being guilty of - all people are guilty of. It is a result of being in a limited - but unique perspective.

Anything that comes from a person is going to be from that persons perspective. As such, you can not blame the person, only realize this as fact. At which point, you can then try to understand that persons perspective, which can provide insight into what the person is trying to convey.

I understand what you are saying and I agree. It's when people worship the idol, but then don't understand what is being taught. But I do not think you can dismiss it just because of something that is unavoidable. Just point it out so that people may focus on what is being said, and not who is saying it.

Originally posted by DarkspARCS
Jesus was born of the Jewish Belief. That belief mandated that there was an ALL POWERFUL God, known mainly by His name Yahweh, or Jehovah in the English language.

Both, I believe, are renderings of the Tetragrammaton; YHWH

[edit on 27-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]