Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

Originally posted by Supercertari
There aren't even many denominations about today, there are just millions of chattering ignorati who get their inspiration and faith from their own imagination and the pride riddled deceit that "I'm right and the sensus fidelium is wrong, now which bit will I accept today."

According to the World Christian Encyclopedia (year 2000 version), global Christianity had 33,820 denominations.

So basically you are saying they didn't get their ideas from the Christian Churches they probably attend, but from their own imaginations, because they are not Catholic?

I'm Human.

And I believe in things I can see and touch.

I believe in hamburgers, clean underwear, socks
that don't fall down, morning $#x, green tea,
go-karts, painting, playing the guitar, cats that stare,
soft toilet paper, my Grams and Gramps and all family,
cheese, sunglasses and Scrabble.

I am thankful to my family, who taught me to believe in
myself and to not be afraid to question my surroundings.

I am also thankful to those who came before me who helped
develop those things I enjoy in life.

Originally posted by Supercertari
It may have escaped your attention that people do do whatever the heck they want, as a Christian it is my duty to try my best not to do whatever the heck I want (by the grace of God) and share the revealed law of God with others to willfully ignore or follow as they choose.

So you support gay rights? Again I'll ask, what commandment are they breaking.

Your selective reading of scripture is a manifestation of that a la carte Christianity I spoke of. Love thy neighbour? Why on earth would you mention or try to abide by that commandment if you feel free to dismiss the other commandments as it suits you?

Which commandments am I breaking? Please let me know. What commandments am I dismissing?

Judging? Why is that not allowed in your personal faith? I hope you're not basing it on scripture because you've already demonstrated that's something you like to pick and choose from. Wat is your criterion for making the decision as to which commandments you should abide by and speak of? Is it what feels right for you? Is it what feels right for others? Is it what makes people happy?

Excuse me if I choose to submit to the collective wisdom of the sensus fidelium and the Church, inspired by and lead by the Holy Spirirt as promised by our Lord rather than submit to the ramblings of the fractured self-confirmed "inspirations" of the "Christian but not religious."

It's called looking at the sin rather than the sinner. It is not my place to judge others. More importantly here, why is judging others allowed in your personal faith when you claim. There is a difference in having an opinion and judging someone.

It can be your opinion that being gay is wrong. Nothing wrong about that. It's your choice.

You judge them when you put you them down, do not love them and treat them in manner you wouldn't want to be treated in. That is wrong, you are now putting yourself above another to make the choice for them.

reply to post by badmedia


There are many on this site who have had spiritual divine revelations.

A few are in this thread.

Paul too had a revelation, but he then went on to be tutored by Christ Jesus himself. Yes, this too is possible, even today.

I think it is important to learn from one another.

Sometimes I go on about how unfortunate it is that Christianity doesn't know what Judaism teaches... that which Jesus knew. Christians at one time were considered to be a sect within Judaism. As such, Christians had all the rights and protections afforded the Jews by Rome. Then, the schism occurred and Christians began to be persecuted... killed and burned at the stake, etc.

These schisms are never productive, but even the lack of understanding of Judaism's teachings does not prevent God from revealing himself to who he will.

The bible is easy enough to be criticized as it is, but for the faithful to start throwing out some books of the bible and then disputing over them is truly distasteful. Not only that, but it can show that additional understanding is needed as well as providing comic relief to those who may indulge in such things.

While I do understand your stance on Paul having held them myself for a time, I can no longer endorse them. Paul has a great many things to teach, if we are willing to learn and do not think that we already know everything.

Rather than address each part of your posting to me, I'll only pull out one sentence. Otherwise this would get too long and time consuming for me.

But Paul teaches people it is only important to accept Jesus.

And it is. Accepting Jesus and believing in Him is for them their only connection to heaven.

Do you wish to deny them this? This connection that will eventually yield the understanding that is oh so important?

Suffer not the little children (those without understanding) to come.

And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:5-6

The children cannot know anything without having seen Jesus or the Father, but they can accept Jesus on His word and believe.

Through this mere act of believing all of heaven works to bring to these individuals what is needed for their awakening... even if that includes their walking away from the "nonsense" first... and even if their belief is idolatrous.

Whatever the situation, God uses it to fulfill his plan that none perish... this I have total faith in.

In closing, I'd like to say that the bible is more for those who have had a revelation than for those without them. It is at our own disadvantage if we disregard any part of it.

If parts are disagreed with, ask for understanding from the source of all knowledge. There is no shame in not knowing.

reply to post by saint4God

Quoted for truth and agree. Nothing more needs to be said really.

LOL. Thank you.

It would be thought so, wouldn't it?

Peter himself said that Paul was hard to understand.

If Paul isn't understood, then understanding needs to be sought for. Either that or just say... I don't understand Paul.

Even King David wouldn't go against God's anointed.

reply to post by Simplynoone

I agree ...if we say we shouldnt listen to Paul (or that whatever he wrote was antichristian) ..then we should disregard the entire NT except the words in red ..And even those words by Jesus were not written by him either .....As far as I am concerned Paul,John,Peter,James ...all of them are certainly credible enough witnesses for me since they were killed ,tormented and imprisoned for Jesus ....TPTB would not done that unless what they preached was the truth ...Remember it is THE TRUTH that hurts ...

Exactly.

They are all credible.

reply to post by Deaf Alien


Favorite...flagged. I am a Christian. I live by the red words, not the black words. The Paulian principles have done more to desecrate Christ's words than anything else I can think of.

Good thread, good topic.

reply to post by Supercertari


I don't think you understand what badmedia is trying to say at all. He never once stated that "we can do whatever we want", or "we can choose to follow whichever commandment suites our fancy".

Comprehension problems much?

Originally posted by L.I.B.
reply to post by badmedia

 

The bible is easy enough to be criticized as it is, but for the faithful to start throwing out some books of the bible and then disputing over them is truly distasteful. Not only that, but it can show that additional understanding is needed as well as providing comic relief to those who may indulge in such things.

Its distasteful to argue over scripture? Its distasteful to throw out some books of the Bible and keep others???

What about the Roman Empire? What about Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea? Isn't that exactly what they did? Didn't they all sit around and decide which book goes on which one stays out? And for what purpose? to "Unify" Christendom? Or to give the Roman Catholic Church all the power they would ever need? Because that is exactly what has happened.

So you can sit here all day long and accuse badmedia of being "distasteful" but you are FAILING TO REALIZE that the very actions that make him "distasteful" are the same actions that brought you the Book of Paul.

Period.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

By implying that Paul did not convey the teaching of Jesus you are not conveying the truth. Paul's teachings are entirely consistent with those of Jesus and believe it or not the teaching of Jesus is actually entirely consistent with the old testament. It is sad that you have decided to pick and choose what you wish to accept or reject from the Bible. In doing so you have created your own version of God and have committed a form of idolatry. Creating your own private version of Jesus, God or the bible is just as much a form of idolatry and false worship as making an idol of Gold or any other material thing. The seductive nature of doing this is often very pleasing to oneself. On one extreme there are people who are so self righteous and judging without clear discernment that they no longer do the work of God but rather their own ego and on the other extreme there are people so desirous of be accepting without truth that they are apostate and also serve their own ego. Both extremes are self pleasing to those who engage in these types of extremes but both serve their own ego and pride and neither serves God. By who's authority? By that of the complete Word of God as God chose to reveal himself to humanity thru the bible and possibly those other books or references made in such writings.

reply to post by dalan.

Its distasteful to argue over scripture? Its distasteful to throw out some books of the Bible and keep others???

What about the Roman Empire? What about Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea? Isn't that exactly what they did? Didn't they all sit around and decide which book goes on which one stays out? And for what purpose? to "Unify" Christendom? Or to give the Roman Catholic Church all the power they would ever need? Because that is exactly what has happened.

So you can sit here all day long and accuse badmedia of being "distasteful" but you are FAILING TO REALIZE that the very actions that make him "distasteful" are the same actions that brought you the Book of Paul.

Period.

Anyone who desires to can read the books that were not accepted into cannon, which I have done, btw. So, if Paul's writings had not been included, I would have read them anyway.

I am also aware of the history of the church and how the "bloody" Roman Empire conducted itself.

However, what I find distasteful in this particular subject of Paul versus Jesus is the lack of unity which comes about from only accepting "some scripture" because it is ALL for the purpose of teaching spiritual principles for the result of elevating the soul.

If you wish for me to agree that Paul's writings have been used inappropriately... been there done that. In this thread as a matter of fact.



Edited to hopefully fix html


[edit on 26-11-2008 by L.I.B.]

[edit on 26-11-2008 by L.I.B.]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
The world today might have been a better place had Christians truly followed Jesus instead of Paul.

Less war. Less suffering. Less homophobia. More unity. More tolerance.

I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. Most argue that Paul was much too lax in his adherence to old Testament law and wasn't strict enough in his teachings.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

www.blueletterbible.org...

By the way it was Simon Peter with the agreement of all the apostles that this letter be sent out with Paul and Barnabas. This was the message that Paul taught. Did he not say "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient"? Even though Paul preached against immorality his message was one of forgiveness and acceptance. His only suggestion was that once you were brought under the forgiveness of Jesus you should do your best to abstain from the former practices that were against the law. His overwhelming message was that Jesus' sacrifice removed all guilt from the law.

Funny you should stress homophobia. Fine. Throw out Paul's teaching and just look at the words of Jesus. While he never mentioned homosexuality, he definitely preached that marriage was between a man and a woman.

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

www.blueletterbible.org...

In summary, Paul taught forgiveness just as Jesus did. Paul said to "follow me as I follow Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). We are instructed to only follow Paul's teachings as long as they line up with what Jesus taught. As saint4God pointed out earlier, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? ". (1 Corinthians 1:10-17) How much more clear can it be than that?

[edit on 26-11-2008 by dbates]

I find this all...amusing.

After having several extreme spiritual moments in my life...the quoted words of Jesus actually make a lot of sense.

How they have been twisted/interpreted/mis-used ... now alarms me.

Jesus never wanted wars to be fought over his name. Jesus never wanted people to revere and put his physical picture on a wall to kneel before. Jesus saw the true divine nature of himself -- tapped into it, and tried by means at-the-time (people were not ready for such a message) to "enlighten" the people.

I am Jesus. You are Jesus. We can all "be" what we read and understand as the persona of "Jesus".

I find all the "worship" and directed "mental attitudes" to someone outside of the ALL THAT IS ALL...degrading and very "low-brow" and unintelligent. Ignorant I would almost say.

Jesus knew what was up, he had to break it down in "kindergarden terms" for the people who must have, at the time seemed to think like apes in terms of theology!

It's so much safer and easier to resign one's fate to an external power.



Jesus took the hard path, realizing that the kingdom of GOD was within him -- and also inside of all of us. He suffered the ultimate price for his knowledge and wisdom.

Great minds never last -- human instinct is to crush any alien or revolutionary mind that might uplift or change our set-pattern of living.

God? I talk to him each time I look at a tree and simply clear my mind and observe the intricate and perfect creation that has been manifest for me to witness.

God is not some "old man" in some throne in the clouds. He lives inside of all that is/was/will/be.

Slam me, damn me to hell for my thoughts...it's my truth and not yours...your truth is your own. I simply wished to express my own truth.

reply to post by MystikMushroom

Jesus took the hard path, realizing that the kingdom of GOD was within him -- and also inside of all of us. He suffered the ultimate price for his knowledge and wisdom.

At-one-ment.

It's what atonement is for.

Someday maybe a thread could be done for how those who have had this got there.

There's no judgment and punishment from God, only love and compassion.

Whoever makes this statement in a thesis, has NOT read the Old Testament.

The truth is that only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will get you into the Father's Kingdom. Once saved, the Holy Spirit will convict the Believer of their sin. It is up to the Believer to repent and do their best to be obediant.

Those who chose to reject Jesus are under God's wrath now, and will face His judgment and eternal damnation.

40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:
As surely as I live forever,

41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me.
Deuteronomy 32:40-41

Originally posted by L.I.B.

Rather than address each part of your posting to me, I'll only pull out one sentence. Otherwise this would get too long and time consuming for me.

But Paul teaches people it is only important to accept Jesus.

And it is. Accepting Jesus and believing in Him is for them their only connection to heaven.

Jesus says otherwise. Jesus says those who believe will follow his example. Jesus gives specific information to where the people will go, and who will see god. Everyone says - just accept christ into your heart. Only by accepting Jesus into your heart will you see the truth. Only by accepting Jesus as your savior will you be saved.

What does it mean to accept christ in your heart though? That part is rarely if ever told. The church and the teachings of Paul leave it up to following and doing what the church tells you to, which again goes against the teachings of christ.

8 times I was saved as a kid. By 8 different churches. I've been to so many different kinds of churches, methodist, church of christ, church of god, baptist and so on. Every year I would go more than 1 bible summer camp for a week(was fun). I grew up in the bible belt where I knew better than to say I wasn't christian in another persons home.

And all 8 times I tried to accept Jesus into my heart. But since nobody ever really told me how, what it meant or anything else - nothing happened. I was not transformed. The one bible verse I knew all my life by heart was John 3:16. But yet I still after having all these savings joined the military. My uncle - the most devout christian I have ever meet in my life, and never once heard cus(and was known in the Marines for it too) has spent 20 years in the Marines. Lucky for me there was no combat and I didn't break the commandment for killing, but it sure had nothing to do with me accepting Jesus into my heart.

It wasn't until the age of 30 when I had a vision of my own, and what is talked about in John 14 that I gained understanding. It wasn't until that point I was saved. And I was saved by the father, and shown not to worship Jesus, but why all the things Jesus said was right. I was shown that the image is never important, the message is. That the idol/image changes from culture to culture and is merely a messenger. The church only focuses on the idol, and ignores and does not follow the message/example given to them. Instead, the church tells people they will NEVER amount to Jesus, and could NEVER possibly live without sin. The very things Jesus said you must do by following his example.

By following Paul, people take the so called easy way, and that is not the way of Jesus. I was accused of wanting to forget commandments here and there, and I tell you now it is the followers of Paul who do such things. As they believe they can do whatever they want and it will be forgiven. They don't have to worry about the example Jesus set out, because they have "accepted Jesus into their heart". And yet all the while they do not do the very things Jesus said the people who have truly done so will do. The people are misled by focusing on the image, and that causes the little ones to stumble. Just as I stumbled.

To accept Jesus into your heart actually means to accept that his life was the example to live by and then walk that path with him. Those are the words of Jesus. Jesus told them to NOT make leaders of themselves, there is only 1 leader and that I know is true. Because that is where I got my understandings. Not from the bible, and not from the church. Specifically he said this. Paul does just that. The only way to ask for forgiveness is to understand why you sinned, why it was bad and then to quit doing it. At which point, you are forgiven because you have learned the lesson, and the sin is forgotten.

I'm sorry, but when there is a contradiction between the 2, my faith goes to Jesus as being right. Not only because he is the one to follow, but because I know he is right. Are you to suggest that I can go wrong by following Jesus instead of Paul? Or are you to suggest that I can go right by following Paul instead of Jesus?

When the day comes that everyone on earth has an open relationship with god, you can bet there will be no church. As there will be no need for a middle man, and no way for another man to prop himself up over another as a leader. There is no need for it now for anyone who truly does have the personal relationship with Jesus/God they claim. As I mentioned before, it is just for those without understanding who are looking for answers externally. And in that context it is just as what people claim it is, and just what history has shown it to be - control.

I shall know them by their fruits.

Where as Jesus/God brought me understandings so that I choose to follow of my own free will, where I choose to give my will to god(who btw, has never taken me up on directly, has only given me more and more understanding), the church has offered me nothing but a place to give up my responsibilities for walking the path which is deception, and tried my entire life to get me to do so out of fear of hell.

Where as Jesus says to seek and you will find, which I did and did find - and not in the bible, the bible and the church are never things anyone must seek for. They are hand feed to anyone who will eat it.

Where as Jesus say the truth will set me free, Paul and the church tell me finding the truth means submission to authority. In a world where everyone is happy for me to submit too, and very few will stick up for freedom. A world in which the truth is not yet understood by most, including the millions of church going Christians around the world.

Where as Jesus tells us to never fear any power that stops beyond death, the church and Paul teach to fear authority and power on earth.

If you understand the true nature of the universe and reality, there is a very good reason why the path of Jesus was important, and not worshipping the idol. There is a reason why at the base of all religions, they are basically the same with different idols that teach this same path.

When the rich man came to Jesus, what was the answer Jesus gave him? Was it enough for the rich man to just say he accepted Jesus as his savior? NO. Jesus told the rich man to go give his riches to the poor. Jesus told him to go walk the path.

And as I said before, to stumble the little ones is to knock them off that path. Which paul and the church does.




[edit on 26-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
The world today might have been a better place had Christians truly followed Jesus instead of Paul.

Less war. Less suffering. Less homophobia. More unity. More tolerance.

I don't know how you arrived at this conclusion. Most argue that Paul was much too lax in his adherence to old Testament law and wasn't strict enough in his teachings.

Paul being more 'lax' with his adherence to Old Law, and not as strict as he 'should have been'...

somehow counterargues Deaf Alien's assertion, how

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,*So did the Devil make hermaphrodites?

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

...So... God created the sexes, and for this reason, a son will leave his family, and procreate.

Yep. Jesus is clearly anti-homosexual. Clear as the cloudless skies of Heaven

We are instructed to only follow Paul's teachings as long as they line up with what Jesus taught.

So then, are they all inline?

Or was that just meant as rhetoric?

[edit on 26-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Deaf Alien
What is the difference between a Johnian or a Christian? The New Testament boasts of itself as a literary work that is both God-breathed and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Does that not give continuity to the works of Paul, John and whatever other writer(s) of Scripture? No where does Paul instruct people to become celibate and/or Catholic. That was something the Vatican thought should 'be added' to soli scripturum.

And I was saved by the father, and shown not to worship Jesus,

Friend, Jesus IS God. I don't know your heart, but I hope that you are certain that you know exactly who Jesus is, because only a personal relationship with Him will wash away your sin.

Follow the The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13 22-28

Originally posted by AdmiralObamaGFOL

And I was saved by the father, and shown not to worship Jesus,

Friend, Jesus IS God. I don't know your heart, but I hope that you are certain that you know exactly who Jesus is, because only a personal relationship with Him will wash away your sin.

Follow the The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13 22-28

Yes of course I know he is god.

I am referring to John 14.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


Jesus says - on that day you will realize that god and jesus are inside all of us. If you do not hear the words of Jesus, and follow the words of jesus, then you will hear the words of the father(pretty much blows that whole gotta save everyone, ours is the only right religion in the world crap the church spews). Once you hear the fathers words, then the holy ghost will teach you all things. Jesus does not give us as the world gives us(material), Jesus gives us knowledge and understanding - what makes a rich man in the eyes of god.

I did not hear the words of Jesus. I heard the words of the father. I learned the path of Jesus outside the bible, and I learned it was the only path to follow from the father/holy spirit. It was not until after learned these things, as the 14:25 says - they were not yet present in me, that I started to see the words of Jesus and why they were true. I do not believe in Jesus because the bible tells me so. I believe in Jesus because I know and understand what he did, and why it was so special.

It's 1 thing to know Jesus is god. It's another to understand why/how and how it relates to you.