Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Incarnated
However if you choose to believe a higher and more spiritualized meaning

You assume because she doesn't agree with you that Paul was divinely inspired, that it would mean she also doesn't believe in a 'higher spiritual meaning'?

You assume too much.

Millions believe in God or a 'higher spiritual meaning', but do not believe Paul was divinely inspired. Including myself, and I have always believed in God.

No, my brother you're mistaken, and I will show you how. In the HIGHEST sense, Our Father knows all. In the Highest spiritual meaning all things work out for GOOD. In the higher spiritual understanding all events in the past work out for the best of mankind. No one knows what was in Paul's mind. You'd be a fool to assume you can assign meaning to his actions. So in the highest spiritual sense Paul's actions were the cause of the effect of these days. You can not say outside Paul's actions "Christianty" would even be a religion today. Maybe without Paul's actions the spread of Christianty wouldn't have ever happened. Maybe without Paul's actions all the world would be islamic today.

The higher spiritual meaning is outside the illsuion of the light vs darkness. In the higher spiritual meaning all things are light, you just have to be willing to see it.

Originally posted by mystiq
I was once researching things about early Christianity, due to a personal experience, and stumbled upon a certain early prominent figure who shared my belief in everyone being saved. There was actually a name for it, but I've tried googling many different key words and never found that information again. In his case, the Church ended up ex-communicating him for his beliefs, and then re-instated him.

Hmm... now you got my curiosity up hehe.

Early Christianity? Perhaps a figurehead in gnosticism?

I would venture a guess and say it was Valentinus... he was ex-communicated as a heretic, but I don't believe he was made a saint by the Church.

Originally posted by Incarnated
No, my brother you're mistaken, and I will show you how. In the HIGHEST sense, Our Father knows all. In the Highest spiritual meaning all things work out for GOOD. In the higher spiritual understanding all events in the past work out for the best of mankind. No one knows what was in Paul's mind. You'd be a fool to assume you can assign meaning to his actions. So in the highest spiritual sense Paul's actions were the cause of the effect of these days. You can not say outside Paul's actions "Christianty" would even be a religion today. Maybe without Paul's actions the spread of Christianty wouldn't have ever happened. Maybe without Paul's actions all the world would be islamic today.

The higher spiritual meaning is outside the illsuion of the light vs darkness. In the higher spiritual meaning all things are light, you just have to be willing to see it.

I understand this level of thinking. But this is in the same sense that in the end, evil will point out the good. Of question at this topic was if people follow Jesus or Paul. People keep trying to claim Paul was of Jesus, and that is not true. You can learn from Paul, just as evil points out the good.

As I said earlier, if you follow Paul, then you do not understand Paul. To follow Paul is to be decieved, and the church in all it's works has done this.

As Paul was not of Jesus, he does not spread Christianity, he spreads satanism. And that is what the majority of Christianity is - Satanism. Where the people are made to be kept ignorant and only serve what the leaders tell them to do.

Who did Jesus say the Pharisee's were? The children of Satan. Even though the carried the law of God around, and told people they were supposed to follow it - they did not do that themselves. They did not give people understanding of them. Which is why Jesus had to come here and fulfill the law - to bring understanding to people, so they could actually do so. And he was murdered for it. He knew he would be killed, but he showed and did it anyway.

What do Christians celebrate? The life of Jesus? No, they celebrate his death, as a sacrifice. They wear symbols of the tool used to kill him. When the important thing was his life and message, they do not focus on these. They view Christ is nothing more than a sacrifice for themselves.

The bottom line is that Paul is not the one to be followed, Jesus is. And this is important because people who follow Paul keep bringing the teachings of Paul as evidence against the teachings of Jesus.

The dogmatic beliefs of the church is what leads people away from Jesus. Time after time people who do not believe in God use these dogmatic things as proof of how stupid christians are. Time after time I am classified as ignorant right off the bat for even thinking about the bible - not based on the teachings of Jesus, but on the bullcrap the church has pulled over the years, and the crap these followers of Paul push out. Even when you try to explain that those things aren't what Jesus taught, people will just say - you aren't christian. Atheists will even try to pin me in that ridiculous box and quote scripture at me.

And what better way of discrediting something and making it seem silly than what the church has done. People who aren't brainwashed into it can see the evil it is. Even those who are brainwashed into it can see it when it's another religion doing it. Of course, the first rule of mind control is the victim has no idea he is being mind controlled.

I can not and I will not ignore the evils done by the church and the followers of Paul. I can not ignore that rather than enlighten people, it has preyed on those who could not see the truth for themselves, and got them to break the commandments. Instead of getting people to follow Jesus, it has lead them away.

The only justification for it is on the level you mention. Which is the same level where evil in the end serves the good. But that doesn't mean you are doing good by serving evil when you are the student and not one of the teachers.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Hmm... now you got my curiosity up hehe.

Early Christianity? Perhaps a figurehead in gnosticism?

I would venture a guess and say it was Valentinus... he was ex-communicated as a heretic, but I don't believe he was made a saint by the Church.

In the hindu religion(I think), at the end of each age the the devil and angels hug. But this has to do with a much higher level than what we've been discussing, where evil actually ends up serving the purposes of evil because without evil you have no understanding of good.

In this level of understanding you realize we are in a school, prision or however you want to see it, kept away from the rest of the universe while we learn these lessons.

So I do not find anything wrong with the idea that in the end everyone will be saved.

But that is another topic in itself really.

Originally posted by badmedia


I understand this level of thinking. But this is in the same sense that in the end, evil will point out the good. Of question at this topic was if people follow Jesus or Paul. People keep trying to claim Paul was of Jesus, and that is not true. You can learn from Paul, just as evil points out the good.

So you're claiming to be Jesus Christ Returned? Because I know Paul is long dead. And I know that the only two people that have any right to talk about the relationship between Jesus and Paul are them.

Originally posted by Incarnated
So you're claiming to be Jesus Christ Returned? Because I know Paul is long dead. And I know that the only two people that have any right to talk about the relationship between Jesus and Paul are them.

The funny thing about Christians. They all talk about a personal relationship with god, but hell will come before they actually allow it.

You make too many assumptions. I know Jesus from his fruits, and I know Paul from his fruits, and I know these are not the same fruits.

I know Paul does not do what Jesus says to do because I can see what Jesus told them to not to do, and I can see that those things are exactly what Paul did. I also know the things I am not to do are the things that Paul does. I've pointed them out numerous times, so I don't think I need to post them yet again.

That Paul may have a purpose is not justification for the actions of Paul, or a reason to follow Paul. Anymore than the fact that Satan has a purpose is not justification for the actions of his, or a reason to follow.

There is only 1 to follow and that is God. Which again comes with the personal relationship they talk about, but do not allow unless presented under their approval. Just as I am told I am wrong from what I've learned from my own personal relationship with god.

Originally posted by Incarnated
No, my brother you're mistaken, and I will show you how. In the HIGHEST sense, Our Father knows all. In the Highest spiritual meaning all things work out for GOOD. In the higher spiritual understanding all events in the past work out for the best of mankind.

I believe this. What have I mistaken?

No one knows what was in Paul's mind. You'd be a fool to assume you can assign meaning to his actions.

I don't assume to know. Do you?

We know historically Paul never met Jesus. We know Paul persecuted Christians prior to his conversion. Paul claimed he saw the resurrected Christ, thus calling himself an 'Apostle' in addition to the twelve. But that does not change the fact that prior to the conversion, he was extremely against Christianity.

Perhaps he became a sleeper agent?

I don't assume to know his mind. But I have one of my own, and I use it. I look at those facts and I study his words, and my mind and spirit gives me reason to doubt his communion to God. I am not infallible though!

So in the highest spiritual sense Paul's actions were the cause of the effect of these days.

You said, we do not know what was in Paul's mind. You said, all things done are known by God, and will eventually lead to a Good finality.

This does not then exclude the possibility of us, Mankind, discovering the untruths of Paul, as being another inevitable event for that same Greater Good. You assume what was done, is not supposed to be undone. Why? If all events lead to the same Good finality; This undoing would as well. And it would be expected by God.

You can not say outside Paul's actions "Christianty" would even be a religion today.

Do you know the opposite to be true? If there was no Paul, there wouldn't be a Christian Religion today? Do you know that without the works of Paul, the Catholic Church wouldn't have formed regardless? There was plenty of material for the Council of Nicaea to choose from after all

One could argue that without the help of Paul, Christianity would not have become widespread enough for Rome to have noticed it, and subsequently elected the Council of Nicaea, and subsequently become the biggest religion in the World. Perhaps.

I can say that Christianity was before Paul converted to Christianity though

Maybe without Paul's actions the spread of Christianity wouldn't have ever happened.

Indeed. Perhaps so.

Or maybe it would have spread regardless. Perhaps Catholicism would have never formed without his actions, and Christianity would have just evolved differently. Or maybe Catholicism would have formed, just without the works of Paul.

Maybe without Paul's actions all the world would be islamic today.

Maybe if Christianity had not been a big religion, Islam would have never came into being to begin with.

All these 'what ifs' and 'maybes' get us nowhere. Or do they get us everywhere?? You said all events are known by God, and all events together contribute to the Greater Good. This would not exclude our questioning of Paul

The higher spiritual meaning is outside the illsuion of the light vs darkness. In the higher spiritual meaning all things are light, you just have to be willing to see it.

You assume to know my mind.

reply to post by badmedia


Those ideas are actually familiar to Gnosticism as well. I can't recall the 'angel and devil hugging' aspect you speak of, but I am read on some Hinduism. I read Hinduism (especially the Gita) every now and then. Gnosticism shares some common grounds to Hinduism and other Eastern esoteric and mysticism in general. I'd share more thoughts but it's off topic, maybe another thread!

[edit on 29-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

John 3:16....
John 3:17

It appears that the punishment is the indirect aftermath of not being saved by your belief in God.. so it's not a punishment per se, but the lack of the reward.

either way you look at it, jesus didnt just preach compassion and love. there are things required of us and standards to meet.

hellfire isnt what he preached, but then again, neither did paul. the problem certain people have with paulians is that they feel there are things they dont agree with. instead of disagreeing, they simply cut paul out of the bible.

but i think its rash to do that since ive seen nothing that paul has said conflictss with jesus.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Again, judging the World, is just a consequence of saving the World?

if jesus judges the world, then noone would be saved. simply as that. we are imperfect, we make mistakes. which is why i think jesus says a few times that he is not here to judge the world. from a jew´s mind, they would be screwed.

however there are still standards. in this respect jesus IS judging the world. the book of james touches on this nicely. it talks about being ¨doers¨of the word, not just hearers. but the book of james also gets into god saving those he loves. i think its isaiah that god says he hates the wicked one.

its this weird tangled topic but there are points you can draw from it. salvation comes by calling on god´s name. this involves more than simply calling his name. if you know someone who has tickets to the world cup, who might be able to call him to get one, but if his close personal friend calls him also, who is getting the ticket? in order to be able to call on the name of god, one must first know that name and then second, must know the person behind the name. jesus showed this by his most important commandment. love god with all your heart soul and mind.

paul doesnt disagree. the book of hebrews touches on this.

jesus talks about those who despise god and treat his servants badly. he says ¨outside is where the weeping and the knashing of their teeth will be.¨

paul again doesnt disagree. he talks about shunning those who forsake the faith but rather teach their own beliefs.

i dont understand how paul is this apostate usurper.

John 8:11 "And Jesus said unto her(the adulterer), Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

while i understand the spirit of this passage, there is a problem. i believe it was added later, in fact i havent heard of any early transcript that actually has this passage in it.

that being said. jesus DID dine with prostitutes and tax collectors. does this mean that he condoned them?

well its interesting to note that he did condemn certain people (especially pharisees) so no, jesus wasnt preaching forgiveness to anyone. it is likely that the sinners he was dining with were interested in what jesus had to say. possibly their heart condition was right so as to accept correction. this doesnt imply that if they continue sinning that they would be forgiven anyway.

reply to post by badmedia


Our disagreement is simply over whether Paul is specifically to blame or not. You blame Paul and I blame the teachers of the scriptures.

You say without Paul things would be different? I look at history and see people will use anything to their own temporal benefit. Even before Paul the scriptures were used that way.

My problem is not so much with paul, ...

You say this, but I don't see it in your words.

...he obviously made mistakes but we all do and it's not my place to judge him.

From what I have seen you have judged him in this very thread with statements such as:

Paul is decieving people into believing anything that is power is gods will, not what Jesus defines and shows is gods will.

That is a pretty harsh judgment and accusation.

Nevertheless, about your complaint, didn't Jesus say: Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11

Jesus is saying the exact same thing that Paul is being harshly judged and accused of.

I have seen you write that you have no care of what you say, but if you find truth in Jesus' words, perhaps you might also take notice of what he said in Matthew 12:35-37.

My problem with Paul is that people follow Pauls understandings instead of following Jesus with their own personal understandings.

Did you see my post to you on page one of this thread? I'll repost it here:

I personally don't think Paul was trying to divide the house, but that those who use his words to condemn others do. For instance, Paul said:

on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:16

According to "my" gospel he says...

How people use his words definitely make it apparent the differences between the wheat and the tares. Not that God has any real need of that for God knows the heart. All we have to go on is the fruit. Pretty expedient for us. Thank you Paul! LOL

People will use the bible according to their nature...

Their nature becomes amplified it seems, whether it be carnal or spiritual.

My problem is that people will judge people as myself wrong based not on what Jesus said and taught, but what Paul said and taught.

Welcome to the club.

However, the problem, as I see it, is not what Paul said, but how his words are interpreted. And then, that misinterpretation is compounded by the individuals who actually want those interpretations to be true regardless of evidence to the contrary. There is also the the further complication that comes about by those who do not actually read the book/s for themselves.

Paul compromised way to much for my tastes, but these compromises are considered truth rather than compromises for the time period. It's no so much that Paul is the problem, as it is people who follow Paul over Jesus. I see Paul as the leader of those without understanding. To keep them in line until the day when they do get understanding.

It is good to see a more generous attitude that you expressed here.

Ignoring the corruption on the fruit doesn't make the fruit uncorrupted.

Agreed.

If Paul was a fruit of Jesus, then I would not see corruption.

This statement implies that you have perfect vision. Do you?

It also appears to be another judgment, btw.

All you are asking me to do is to seek justification in the works of paul, when there is no justification for breaking commandments, only forgiveness when you no longer break them.

LOL, no. I am not asking you to justify Paul. I have only hoped that you would be more justified with the side effect that you would thereby possibly be more effective with those under the spell of the misinterpretations whom you call Paulians. It would eliminate the accusations against you of cherry picking and twisting scripture to mean what you want it to.

I only wish the best for you.



edited to add a couple words for clarity

[edit on 29-11-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by mystiq

Originally posted by mystiq
I believe perfect knowledge is all the punishment we all receive, and then we get healed. I believe in the absolute evolution and advancement of everyone including demons/fallen angels, lower dimensionals, whatever they are. For the collective knowledge base, both good guy roles and bad guy roles instruct the soul, though advancement occurs through choosing good.

I do believe, reluctantly, in a lower dimension and again, reluctantly, in the enemy or rather fallen angels, demons whatever they are called or wish to call themselves. Though the biblical, or perhaps not, since that's not even truly clear and Christians misuse things that were never meant in the way they were adapted by the Church, but I never accepted the Christian explanation for angels that wanted to fight with the Whole of Creation, who is to me, the most intelligent, loving and wonderful Existence there is. I used to think it was all merely some kind of human negative creation, some psi poltergiest energy that was tormenting us, but have changed my mind due to some strange dreams and a experience with what I call the enemy, and a rescue by St. Michael. So I had a kind of classic experience that surprised the heck out of me and sent me on a long search for some answers about the fallen ones. They're going to be saved too. They're going to chose personal happiness and growth and sanity and joy too!

We're all one, and I'm not limping home with one of my arms missing. And I have never given my yes to anything that is psychotic which is what I consider most people's religions to depict. Just love everyone and ask for their evolution and happiness. One thing I do think is right in the Bible is where it says, God will grant every prayer that is good. Asking for everyone's salvation is good. Already been done. Phwew, now that that nightmares over.

It's beyond me why this post of yours hasn't been starred and flagged all over the place.

2nd line.

reply to post by badmedia


badmedia:

You are right in one regard.......Jesus will show us the way. He is after all the one true light. There again what does that exactly mean? How do we really KNOW that you have the anointing of the Holy Spirit?

Of course ALL these questions don't matter if the reader is not a believer or follower of Christ. Remember, even the demons believe in Christ. It should not matter to one who does not have a spiritual relationship with God.

I believe that Paul teaches us much. Now, I stress this is my own personal belief upon what my spirit teaches me as I read the Scriptures and have my own personal time with my God. Paul was chosen by Christ to preach to the Gentiles and who are we to question who Christ chooses to spread his word to the people who were not Jews. As L.I.B. already pointed out, Paul's letters were personal letters being sent to churches he helped get started and he was checking up on them. They were babies and needed to be careful not to be left to long unattended or they could fall and get hurt, spiritually hurt.
I believe that Paul taught about the love of Christ and the forgiveness.

I believe there is no difference or should be no difference as to weather a person is considered a Christian or a follower of Paul. The answer is of course a Christian.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Seems pretty clear to me. I don't believe that the OP has a point to be made here.

Peace to all,
Grandma

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Its difficult when good information disappears, and no changing the keywording brings it up. It was when I was exploring how or why there actually could be fallen angel types in a classic sense after an experience, and I was deep into pages of ancient Jewish, or ancient people traditions about angels, and whatnot.
I've read the term universalism, and how Augustine was the opposite in his belief of a permanent hell, but that isn't the term. For some reason, Augustine rings a bell though, because someone like him was instrumental in actually opposing this "theologian" and getting him kicked out of the church, and then after a bit, he was re-instated. He didn't recant what he believed however, and he believed all beings, including any devils that may exist, would be saved. That it was an all or nothing thing, which is the only thing I could ever give my yes to.

reply to post by mystiq


If it is an all or nothing sort of thing, why then did Jesus come to be born and then teach us wonderful spiritual knowledge and train his disciples (as he knew he was about to die) to be able to spread the gospel as far as they could travel.
Jesus was born to be crucified on the cross so by his sacrifice we can reach the Father and be forgiven for our sins.

So either we can be forgiven,
Or it doesn't matter is we sin because we won't be punished by it.

I don't see how anyone can miss the point of the crucifixion and the resurrection.

I Peter 4:18
If it IS hard for the righteous to be saved, what WILL become of the ungodly and the sinner?

As the saying goes we will be living eternity in one of two neighborhoods, it is up to us to decide which neighborhood we end up in.

I know there are other texts that do not talk about a day of judgment and that would be great. It's just that there would have been no point to Jesus' death and resurrection if we did not need to be SAVED and he needed to defeat DEATH so that we might be able to also.

I would like to see it the way you do, believe me, that would be wonderful but my heart and my spirit tell me something different.

Peace to you,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


You have to weigh this....

What were the actions of mankind?
What were the actions of spirit (God)?

Try to not look at what the man did to Christ for understanding of Christs purpose and look and see the actions of Christ instead for understanding a purpose.....

peace, even in ones own defense, through faith in a eternal life of being ONE (I and the Father are ONE)...there was no righteous action for Christ to fight his way against what man wanted to do.

God will not force anything on any soul. Christ will not force his teachings on any soul. IT IS NOT ABOUT BLOOD!!! That is the sly trick of the evil doer in the OT coming back to haunt this age...that it was a required blood atonement. Its really not even about a covering of sins. We cover our biggest sin (the killing of Christ) with the Old traditions of blood sacrifices (requirements from God). Only if you believe that God ever required blood letting from any man in order for God to dwell with man, then only will you see Christs life as a blood atonement. God is mightier and more perfect then making us in a life like this of sorrow and temptations to just make us believe our whole life that the only way to God is through blood.

Christ showed us a rightous action, it was to walk the walk of PEACE, even in ones own defense. Man can not get this because we view this life so precious for its all we know. But wisdom takes one on the exploration of a eternal self, a higher eternal self that is a PART OF THE ONE (the father and I are one)....so the purpose of ones life becomes a purpose for this ONE, which only shines through love and peace....the only way.

Too many religions before Christianity were sacrificing blood to Gods. I think the conflict here is that our evolving consciousness is growing with wisdom and knowledge to see beyond the works of man that day Christ died, and look beyond at the works of the righteous man who God shined through that day, which was our Christ.

Following Christ can be taken as understanding why his actions were what they were....its because God will not fight, Thee will not force, Thee will not join in war. Actions, oh the volumes of words they now speak.

Peace,
LV

reply to post by badmedia



[What do Christians celebrate? The life of Jesus? No, they celebrate his death, as a sacrifice]


Sorry Badmedia but please dont generalize Christians like that ...I personally love the fact that Jesus is RISEN and is ALIVE .....I celebrate eachday for the LIFE that Christ has given to me ........
More so than I concentrait on his death...some may believe they are serving a dead Christ ..but I DO NOT >........

reply to post by Simplynoone


And according to your Christian belief, he gave you that life, through his sacrifice, no?

I dont think anyone thinks they are serving a dead Christ...Followers of Christ most likely believe in the eternal life of Christ.

I think was badmedia was saying is that the teaching is not found in the reason of Christs death. The purpose can be found in the actions of Christs knowing man was going to try to kill him. His actions proved he believed what he taught, that peace was the only way to eternal life. Christ did not fight because God does not fight. Out of offering and ones one will may one come to Thee.

Jesus showed us Gods nature.
Jesus also showed us the nature of mankind.

Just some thoughts,
LV

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by mystiq

 

I don't see how anyone can miss the point of the crucifixion and the resurrection.

The point of the crucifixion was to teach about the genesis of the world.
The "lamb of God" was "slain before the foundation of the world".
The "lamb of God" is THE TRUTH.
Truth is the first casualty of war.
The world is a "war" against the truth.
Therefore, when the truth is spoken in the world, it is resisted.
The crucifixion of Jesus shows that truth is resisted.
Truth is resisted because it "threatens" the very foundation of the world.
The world is built on a foundation of "sand".
The "sand" is the idea of individual differences, separation, guilt, and special status.
Without these concepts, the world would vanish.
Therefore, the world must defend itself against the truth.
Therefore, the world sometimes kills the messengers of truth, and almost always mangles the truth beyond recognition.
Paul mangles the truth beyond recognition.
In this way, Paul's gospel "saves" the world.
But salvation is not for the world.
Salvation is for the mind of Christ.
The world is evidence that the mind of Christ is split between true and false.
Salvation "heals" a split mind, making it whole again.
Each "man" is evidence of a split mind, made in the "image" of man's maker.
Paul had a split mind.
Paul spoke out of both sides of his mouth.
Paul blessed and cursed, showing he had a split mind.
Paul's "salvation" was a glorified body...individuated, different, unique.
Therefore, Paul's salvation is the salvation of the world, for the world is built upon these concepts.
Paul sells guilt as truth.
Therefore, Paul saves the world for the world.
Therefore, Paul "sells" the foundation of the world as "truth".
Therefore, Paul merely continues the same kind of confusion that begets the world.

Neither Paul, nor the world, can stop salvation.
Nothing can separate itself from salvation.
Because salvation is for the mind of the Son of God.
And Jesus is the "first fruits" of a mind that has been saved.
A saved mind understands itself to be Christ.
An unsaved mind understands itself to be "Christian".
However, it is now time to redefine "Christianity":
Christi anti.
But Christianity is not "the anti Christ" alone.
Christianity is an aspect...one manifestation of many manifestations of anti Christ.
What is anti Christ is for the many.
What is for the many is against the One, which is Christ.
Paul was for the many...for the many glorified bodies he promised to those who believed in the gOd of this world.
But the gOd of this world is an idol.
The gOd of this world is the "father" of all in the world.
For this reason, Jesus called the Pharisees "sons of the devil"...
...because they worshipped the gOd who makes this world.
For this reason, Jesus said, "call no man father".
Because to be "the son of man" is to be the son of s.a.t.a.n.
Satan is a machine in the mind of the Son of God.
Satan is a *separation analogue* .
Satan accomplishes a purpose.
Satan answers a question for the Son.
"What if everything was different?".
Satans world is the answer to that question.
Satan can be forgiven.
Paul can be forgiven.
Satan does not exist but for the belief of the Son.
Paul does not exist.
Only the Son of God exists.
All else is a mask [veil] over the face of Christ.
Jesus pulls the mask off, and tears the veil that Christ may be seen.
But confusion still persists in hiding the face of Christ.
Nevertheless..."all things work together for GoD [good].
The oneness of the Son of God will prevail against the many gates of hell.

Christ!

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I say love it is a flower and you it's only seed

I Corinthians 15

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead cames also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. And if Christ has not raised your faith is futile; you are still in your
sins.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:18

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Matthew 20:
"Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many"

Mark 14 At Gethsemane
He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch."
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed if possible the hour might pass from him. Abba, Father," he said, everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
It wasn't a sacrifice his life was a offering.

When Jesus cried out in a loud voice Eloi, Eloi, lamasabachthani - which
means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." At that moment I believe that God had forsaken Christ as then all our sins fell upon him and he became the sin-bearer. We are the temple of God but we were brought with a price.

Love ya,
Mom