Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

Would Christians be different today if Paul's epistles hadn't been included in the Bible? Would there be a lot less homophobia among Christians?

Most Christians today are actually Paulians, followers of Apostle Paul. They form most doctrines around Paul, not Jesus.

It is undeniable that without the Apostle Paul, Christianity is unlikely to have achieved its expansion into the classical world, its move away from strict Jewish law, and even its modern make-up. The Pauline epistles have also been used as the basis for much doctrine. For many, Paul’s words, not Christ’s, are the origin for the non-ordination of women, the celibacy of priests and even homophobia.

Link

In one of Matthew Fox's proposition in his thesis, it states:
Christians must distinguish between Jesus and Paul.
95 Theses or Articles of Faith for a Christianity for the Third Millennium

In these thesis, Christianity is formulated around Jesus and his philosophy, as spirituality should be.

There's no judgment and punishment from God, only love and compassion.

I think there is a conspiracy to divert people from true spirituality and from Jesus' messages, which is all about love, compassion, and equality.

Paul's Letters were the first, written at least 20 years after Jesus's execution. St. Paul's theology, and the interpretation it cast on events recalled about Jesus's career, played a significant role in shaping the doctrines of the Paulian-Christian Church. Yet, this man was not Jesus, nor was he G0D. For that reason, those denominations of Christianity which believe in the inspiration and authority of Paul are called "Pauline", or "Paulian". Often more than half of what they hold as doctrinal truth comes from Paul rather than Jesus. Though most favors of Christianity are Paulian, The Christo-Paulian church has squelched most of The Gospel of Thomas because too many elements in them didn't fit in with doctrines and precepts which the early Church had crafted up to that time. In other words -- Politics.

Here's the interesting part, similiar to the discussion of similiarity of Horus and Jesus:

During the celebration of Christmas people worship the birth of the many pagan sun gods: Mithra, Baal, Horus, Ra, Zeaus etc., because during this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had in the winter solstice "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. But little recognized on this list is the one called Sol. He was said to die on Dec. 21 and to be reborn on Dec. 25. Sol, as in solar, could have been where the term Saul came from as Pol (Apollo & Apollonius) seems to become the name Paul.
During the time of Christ, Apollonius came to be the best known healer, prophet and religious authority in the known world. born: AD 2, died: AD 98 or 99 which is similar to time of Paul. The Greek Apollonius (named after the Greek sun god Apollo) was devoted to discovering and understanding all of the secret doctrines of all of the world's religions which would explain if he was Paul, why Paul compiled all cultures into one tree of knowledge of good and evil

www.fortunecity.com...

The moment that Christianity was adopted by the political power structure of the Roman Empire it stopped being a pacifist Gnostic cult, and became a methodology for control. The racism that was inherent within an empire that thought nothing of enslaving foreign peoples has continued within the Roman Catholic Church right up to the present day.

... using the teachings of Saul/St.Paul the Holy Roman Catholic Church developed a manipulative dogma of the heroism of victimhood that gave the failing Roman Empire a new strength.

www.geocities.com...

Paulian Christianity teaches that we are separated from one other and from God and Jesus. That was how the Roman Catholic Church got it's power. People can only access God through priests.

If the seed ideas of Christ were allowed to merge with Pagan Nature religions, then the original dreams of unity, brotherhood, charity, equality, mutual compassion, and ultimately union with God of early Gnostic Christianity might create a Global Village, instead of a New World Order.

The world today might have been a better place had Christians truly followed Jesus instead of Paul.

Less war. Less suffering. Less homophobia. More unity. More tolerance.

Sighs. If only it would happen.

I'm a Christian, and I think you bring up very good points. I just spent pages and over a week now arguing with a paulian.

I would quote Jesus, and in return(and his way of telling me I was wrong) he would constantly quote paul. In many times, completely the opposite of what Jesus talked.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It starts towards the end of this thread and finishes up. I even start talking about Jesus vs Paul.

The people who follow Paul are the pharisees of today. They keep the very literal and strict interpertation just as they pharisees did. If you question or disagree with them, they will deliver you up into their churches(the written word) and use the literal word to say you are wrong. Even what Paul teaches is very literal.

However, as L.I.B. pointed out to me - even though they are wrong in understanding, which is what causes them to be hypocrites, the actual words they speak and tell people to follow(the commandments) are true, and are to be observed. Just not their way of doing things.

Matthew 23

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Here's an example.

The commandment says - thou shall not kill. The pharisees/paulians will tell you word for word - thou shall not kill. But they do not actually practice it. The church has "just war theory", in which they believe there is an appropriate time to kill someone.

We know this just war theory is false because as Jesus lead the perfect life, he showed people how to live without breaking commandments. When possed with either taking the life of others, or dieing himself he choose death. He held up the commandment of thou shall not kill.

So in this case, they are exactly right when they tell you very literally - thou shall not kill. But do not follow their example because they do not follow what they say.

Another example - love thy neighbor as thyself. They will certainly repeat this. Of course, for them that stops if they are gay, want an abortion or the person has sinned, does not accept Jesus and so on. Once again they are right when they tell you to love thy neighbor, but do not follow their example because they do not actually follow the law themselves.

Thus why Jesus called them hypocrites.

Paul answers your question two thousand years in advance:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." - 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

reply to post by Deaf Alien


Good thread.

Here's a few links that show some of the differences in Jesus' and Paul's teachings.

www.wordwiz72.com...
www.voiceofjesus.org...
www.jesusfamilies.org...


You may also find these sites interesting.

YAHSHUA OR PAUL?
www.essene.org...

Jesus and Judaism verses Paul and Christianity.
www.judaismvschristianity.com...

Originally posted by saint4God
Paul answers your question two thousand years in advance:

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." - 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

Jesus said there is but 1 true teacher, Christ. Who will appear to you in a vision or dream and the holy ghost will give you knowledge. As happened to me and countless others.

Jesus came to fulfill the law. By showing the proper way to follow it. If Paul is teaching things which go against the teachings of Jesus then he is in fact trying to divide the house.

Originally posted by badmedia
If Paul is teaching things which go against the teachings of Jesus then he is in fact trying to divide the house.

It is fun to play with 'if's but isn't the case as demonstrated by the verse I'd quoted among others.


[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by badmedia
If Paul is teaching things which go against the teachings of Jesus then he is in fact trying to divide the house.

Yes, and it is fun to play with 'if's but isn't the case as demonstrated by the verse I'd quoted among others.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

Well, actually it's not even an "if", it's a fact as pointed out by the original poster that Pauls teachings do in fact go against the teachings of Jesus.

So apparently, by your own agreement to the "if", as the "if" is true, you are agreeing.

Originally posted by badmedia
Well, actually it's not even an "if", it's a fact as pointed out by the original poster that Pauls teachings do in fact go against the teachings of Jesus.

So apparently, by your own agreement to the "if", as the "if" is true, you are agreeing.

Negative, but nice try (edited so that it could not be possibly misconstrued as you have done here). The original poster has not established that Paul goes against the teachings of Jesus. There are many inaccuracies, too numerous for the 10,000 letter maximum to clarify.


[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Negative, but nice try (edited so that it could not be possibly misconstrued as you have done here). The original poster has not established that Paul goes against the teachings of Jesus. There are many inaccuracies, too numerous for the 10,000 letter maximum to clarify.

Then I shall divide your house. I shall follow Jesus and not Paul. If your house was built on truth and understanding, then I would not be able to divide your house. Only the house that is built on lies and deception falls.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Romans 13

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

And how about the huge contridiction in what follows for Paul.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

If there is no power but that of god, where do these people get the power to resist?

Jesus taught people they were the authority. God is internal. Paul teaches people the powers are the authority. God is external and any powers that exist are those of god(I'm sure Satan with all his power would love for you to believe this). Jesus brings free will, Paul brings slavery and submission.

What happens after the bible is created in the current form? We enter the dark ages at the hands of those most freshly deciding what is to be followed.

reply to post by badmedia


Glad you mentioned:

Jesus came to fulfill the law. By showing the proper way to follow it. If Paul is teaching things which go against the teachings of Jesus then he is in fact trying to divide the house.

I was going to post earlier before there were any replies, but was delayed and what you said really helps me out. (Also, thanks to Saint4God for bringing those verses forward too.)

I personally don't think Paul was trying to divide the house, but that those who use his words to condemn others do. For instance, Paul said:

on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:16

According to "my" gospel he says...

How people use his words definitely make it apparent the differences between the wheat and the tares. Not that God has any real need of that for God knows the heart. All we have to go on is the fruit. Pretty expedient for us. Thank you Paul! LOL

People will use the bible according to their nature...

Their nature becomes amplified it seems, whether it be carnal or spiritual.

Originally posted by badmedia
Then I shall divide your house.

Very kind of you...not.

Originally posted by badmedia
I shall follow Jesus and not Paul. If your house was built on truth and understanding, then I would not be able to divide your house. Only the house that is built on lies and deception falls.

Hey, something we can agree on. You do realize your argument is 2,000 years old? Wow, we had to wait for so many years for you to 'show us the light' How smart you must be!

Originally posted by badmedia
Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Romans 13

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

So...where's the contradiction?

Originally posted by badmedia
And how about the huge contridiction in what follows for Paul.

2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

If there is no power but that of god, where do these people get the power to resist?

You need power to resist? If you do, is not that power from God? Do you know what power he is speaking of? Context really helps in understanding as well if you read the whole paragraph.

Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus taught people they were the authority.

The authority over some things, not authority above God nor equal to Christ.

Originally posted by badmedia
God is internal.

This isn't what Christ said.

Originally posted by badmedia
Paul teaches people the powers are the authority.

Paul teaches that God is sovereign and that we should not be spending our time trying to bring the powers that be to our sense of justice.

Originally posted by badmedia
God is external and any powers that exist are those of god(I'm sure Satan with all his power would love for you to believe this).

True power does come from God. Satan believes his power is independant of God's control, which of course is not true. Reading the whole book gives good clarification to these points.

Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus brings free will, Paul brings slavery and submission.

Incorrect statement about Paul, he had a lot of very liberating things to say including:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

Free will existed in Genesis, whether that's Jesus' doing or not I suppose would be a separate debate.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

If people who follow Paul are called Paulians, then why are Christians not known as Jesusians?

I think if people knew what they where talking about then the title should be something like, should Paul be known as the Christ, seeing how the word Christ is the actual title for the Messiah, and not included in the real name of Jesus, what was the surname of Jesus anyhow? did he even have one?

I'm not trying to derail your thread OP, I just think that for there ever to be any agreement in the church of Christ whatever variation people follow, then people need to be clear, are they Worshipping Christ, or Jesus, I always thought it was Jesus the Christ.

Not being a Christian and therefore not an expert in any sense of the word, I do feel however I seem to have heard a different account of how this all came about.

reply to post by saint4God


Think not that I come in peace, I come with the sword of truth just as Jesus did.

Tell me, in just what I quoted - if Paul is not teaching against the words of Jesus, then explain this.

Jesus tells us not to fear those who only have power over us to kill us. But instead to fear the power beyond that of god.

Paul tells us that any power anywhere is the power of god, and that we should obey and fear.

So tell me, which do you follow? Are you a follower of Jesus, or are you a follower of Paul?

Originally posted by azzllin
If people who follow Paul are called Paulians, then why are Christians not known as Jesusians?

The word Christian wasn't invented by Christians. The reason why "Christ" took paramount over "Jesus" in the term was because it wasn't the man people had listened to, but the Christ who was made of both man and God.

"So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." - Acts 11:26

As a believer in The Way (called previously) I take no offense to the term Christian and think it represents the beliefs best - acknowledging Christ as God's one and only son. The Christ. The Messiah.

The naming conventions then went Bar (son of) and then the Father's name. For example, his father was Yusef (Joseph) Bar Heli. Jesus would then be Yeshua Bar Yusef. I may be a little off on my history, but that's how I understand it.

Originally posted by badmedia
Think not that I come in peace, I come with the sword of truth just as Jesus did.

Careful, your pride is showing.

Originally posted by badmedia
Tell me, in just what I quoted - if Paul is not teaching against the words of Jesus, then explain this.

Jesus tells us not to fear those who only have power over us to kill us. But instead to fear the power beyond that of god.

Paul tells us that any power anywhere is the power of god, and that we should obey and fear.

Paul explains that God's power is prevalent in rightous leadership, to recognize it, to see it, to obey it. God is the water, proper leadership is the pipes that run to your house. Remember that these are letters Paul had written to the churches to help them resolve issues with divisiveness in the body of the church.

Originally posted by badmedia
So tell me, which do you follow? Are you a follower of Jesus, or are you a follower of Paul?

Paul already stated who I follow (and other believers) 2,000 years ago, please read again Corinthians chapter 1.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
The authority over some things, not authority above God nor equal to Christ.

The authority over anything that isn't breaking a commandment. That is to follow gods will.

Originally posted by badmedia
God is internal.

This isn't what Christ said.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Multiple times Jesus also talks about he will come to people in visions and dreams. Which is located where? Internally.

True power does come from God. Satan believes his power is independant of God's control, which of course is not true. Reading the whole book gives good clarification to these points.

True power comes from God because he gave you free will. That is where the people who resist get their power. Even still there is a thing called following God's will. If any and all power(actions) were the power of god, then there would be no such thing as going against gods will.

Actually having a vision of your own as Jesus says you will, and learning from the holy spirit provides more clarification than reading a book will.

Paul is decieving people into believing anything that is power is gods will, not what Jesus defines and shows is gods will.

Originally posted by badmedia
Jesus brings free will, Paul brings slavery and submission.

Incorrect statement about Paul, he had a lot of very liberating things to say including:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

Free will existed in Genesis, whether that's Jesus' doing or not I suppose would be a separate debate.


Part of free will is the power to give it away. Jesus did not give people free will in what he taught, but instead showed them how not to give it away.

Paul tries to get people to submit their will to the church, and the men and "leaders" that have been set up. The church - who has the power to judge men and forgive them, instead of christ and does everything the anti-christ/Satan is said to want. When Jesus said do not make yourself leaders, because the only leader is Christ.

Originally posted by saint4God
Careful, your pride is showing.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light , not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented and fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?

You are a child of god. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you.

We were born to make and manifest the glory of god that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

Marianne Williamson

Paul explains that God's power is prevalent in rightous leadership, to recognize it, to see it, to obey it. God is the water, proper leadership is the pipes that run to your house. Remember that these are letters Paul had written to the churches to help them resolve issues with divisiveness in the body of the church.

False, the people will get the leaders they deserve. If they do not follow gods will, then they will get leaders who will do evil and take away their freedoms. As history has shown, nothing will make you understand the value of freedom until you have none. So while god may ultimately put them there, this is not the path of Jesus, and supporting these leaders as Paul says to do is not following Gods will.

Paul already stated who I follow (and other believers) 2,000 years ago, please read again Corinthians chapter 1.

I know people by their fruits, not by their words.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Originally posted by badmedia
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is not the only place God is.

"Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." - John 18:36

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

Notice also that this is a conditional, God does not live side by side with the sin in a person's heart or is present with evil.

Originally posted by badmedia
Actually having a vision of your own as Jesus says you will, and learning from the holy spirit provides more clarification than reading a book will.

You're assuming I'm not in communication with God. I would recommend not doing so for your own integrity's sake and the integrity of that which you claim to represent.

Originally posted by badmedia
Part of free will is the power to give it away. Jesus did not give people free will in what he taught, but instead showed them how not to give it away.

What? No, nevermind. Don't explain.

Originally posted by badmedia
Paul tries to get people to submit their will to the church, and the men and "leaders" that have been set up. The church - who has the power to judge men and forgive them, instead of christ and does everything the anti-christ/Satan is said to want. When Jesus said do not make yourself leaders, because the only leader is Christ.

We are to follow Christ's example when we lead:

"Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet." - John 13:14

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by badmedia
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is not the only place God is.

"Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." - John 18:36

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

Notice also that this is a conditional, God does not live side by side with the sin in a person's heart or is present with evil.

I didn't say it is the only place God is. If god is inside me, then he is also inside you. If I do not love thy neighbor, then I do not love god. If I kill my neighbor, then I have sinned against god. And so on.

The part where he is inside you is merely your connection to him. A connection required for a personal relationship with god, and a connection that paul keeps hidden - as you and many others prove, with his change in the understandings. That our connection with god is through power and following those who hold the power on earth.

Originally posted by badmedia
You're assuming I'm not in communication with God. I would recommend not doing so for your own integrity's sake and the integrity of that which you claim to represent.

I assume I understand your words correctly. If I do not understand your words correctly, please correct me. You said just above god was not internal, as such how can you be in communication with God if you do not realize this understanding? In truth, everyone is always in communication with god, it's opening your mind to see it that makes the difference. Footprints in the sand.

We are to follow Christ's example when we lead:

"Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet." - John 13:14

John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

But you are telling me to follow Paul's example.

Originally posted by badmedia
I didn't say it is the only place God is. If god is inside me, then he is also inside you. If I do not love thy neighbor, then I do not love god. If I kill my neighbor, then I have sinned against god. And so on.

The part where he is inside you is merely your connection to him.

Good deal, we're on the same page with this.

Originally posted by badmedia
A connection required for a personal relationship with god, and a connection that paul keeps hidden - as you and many others prove, with his change in the understandings. That our connection with god is through power and following those who hold the power on earth.

I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion. His commentary on viewing leadership doesn't conflict with anything previously mentioned.

Originally posted by badmedia
I assume I understand your words correctly. If I do not understand your words correctly, please correct me. You said just above god was not internal, as such how can you be in communication with God if you do not realize this understanding? In truth, everyone is always in communication with god, it's opening your mind to see it that makes the difference. Footprints in the sand.

Your phrase "God is internal" is misleading. That is saying he's in one spot, "inside every one of us" unless you meant "only within you". I think you've clarified well above and agree that He's not limited to there nor that we are God.

Originally posted by badmedia
John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

But you are telling me to follow Paul's example.

I am? Paul tells us to follow Christ's example. So I suppose that by following Pauls example of following Christ, the result is the same.