Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

I think that was part of the plan in a sense. Jesus comes, saves mankind. He then commissions humanity to spread the word to "all corners". Paul was the first and the greatest. One of the points of Christianity is the bring the good news. If Jesus had brought it everywhere and all people bowed before his charisma, then the world ought to have ended there. But that wasn't the plan. The plan entailed a missionary who hated Christians at first to miraculously convert and then eventually die for the faith.

my two cents - I am neither Christian nor Pauline but a "son of God" as Yeshuah taught us.....Paul was a great man and often spoke as a man from his own mind - and told us when he was doing this as well...but he also spoke from the spirit....so I study Paul for his unflinching and undeniable grasp of the scriptures, and his willingness to tell the the hard truth...that said it is Yeshuah's words and life that always have the last word in mine...

those who call Paul homophobic have not made a thorough enough study of Torah, or Bible - as whole - and this is where Paul as the Pharisee he once was, gets the best of his critics....

Be that as it may and whatever your take on such matters - Happy thanksgiving to all of you biblical wranglers out there

Paul continued the teachings of Jesus, so for you to state that he somehow altered the Lessons of Christ, from his Origin, is not accurate. The only aspect upon which he differed, is that he used Christ as the example for Christianity, whereas Christ used his own Wisdom. So in effect, the Apostles, as well as Paul, were the first to teach the Faith completely towards and through Christ; or in other words, they were the first to teach and pass along the Faith through the Third Person Perspective, as Missionaries and Converts.

As for "Homophobia", what is wrong with someone simply not agreeing or approving of a certain lifestyle which they deem immoral? Christianity does not generally put forth a Negative Teaching in the light of "Homosexuals are bad", but rather it simply teaches that "Couples" are "Men and Women", and that we are the way we are for a God Given Reason, which is to Procreate Life. That in turn is taught to be a Blessing, and one which should be cherished, and not abused. To simply engage in a certain lifestyle, which is deemed for "Pleasure" and not "Purpose" of Devotion, and Procreation, is what all Three Major Religions actually frown upon. Homosexuality simply falls into the category of Non-Procreation, and thus I assume you could label it "Immoral".

Anyways, that is my best explanation, as I know everyone has differing opinions and interpretations.

I Corinthians 3:4

"For when one person says, "I follow Paul," and another person says, "I follow to Apollos," you're following your own human nature, aren't you?"

OT thankful to JC on Thx-giving...gonna eat some good turkey!

For those who say walk the narrow path.

Which path is more narrow -walking the path of Jesus, or just having to accept Jesus as your savior?

Why does Jesus tell the rich man to go give his riches to the poor and walk the path?

Why does Jesus repeatedly make an effort of saying those who do as he says are those with wisdom, and those who hear and do them not are fools.

Why does Jesus say if you love him and believe, you will walk the path.

Who are the people Jesus says will do many great works in his name, but Jesus will say he does not know them? The people running around telling people to accept Jesus, or the people who actually walk the path?

reply to post by badmedia


I've told you that I respect your teachings. That has not changed. You have a great number of insights that I share... completely.

I'm sorry, but when there is a contradiction between the 2, my faith goes to Jesus as being right. Not only because he is the one to follow, but because I know he is right. Are you to suggest that I can go wrong by following Jesus instead of Paul? Or are you to suggest that I can go right by following Paul instead of Jesus?

No, to both questions. It is best to default to Jesus when another, such as Paul or anyone, raises a contradiction in your mind to what Jesus taught.

That does not mean, however, that Paul cannot teach you something. Something that could be very important for your own personal walk with God.

Maybe you have some problem with certain passages. Fine. Everyone does. Put them aside, or ask for understanding regarding them.

Take what is helpful and leave the rest.

Some can't take the higher inner mystical teachings and some can't take the literal beginning teachings. There are many different stages in the spiritual journey and each person must begin somewhere. And, too, I think we all enter this life at different stages on the path.

You have told me of your 8 unsuccessful attempts to take Jesus into your heart at 8 different churches. What about those who have had transformative events at the moment of their baptism, or those who have had those events happen at the moment of hearing of the possibility that they could be forgiven and reconciled to God?

I join with you against hypocrisy as well as the outcry against those who may think: I can do anything I want because I believe in Jesus and I am forgiven. I join with you in a great many ways.

I just cannot join you in being against Paul. This is coming from someone who also used to be against Paul, yet I have learned a great deal from his writings and none of what was brought to my rememberance has inspired me to go against what Jesus taught.

I can, however, join you in discussing how the apostle Paul's words have been twisted and misunderstood just as the apostle Peter said they were being done in his day.

May the peace and the glory of God be with you forever.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Paul continued the teachings of Jesus, so for you to state that he somehow altered the Lessons of Christ, from his Origin, is not accurate. The only aspect upon which he differed, is that he used Christ as the example for Christianity, whereas Christ used his own Wisdom. So in effect, the Apostles, as well as Paul, were the first to teach the Faith completely towards and through Christ; or in other words, they were the first to teach and pass along the Faith through the Third Person Perspective, as Missionaries and Converts.

As for "Homophobia", what is wrong with someone simply not agreeing or approving of a certain lifestyle which they deem immoral? Christianity does not generally put forth a Negative Teaching in the light of "Homosexuals are bad", but rather it simply teaches that "Couples" are "Men and Women", and that we are the way we are for a God Given Reason, which is to Procreate Life. That in turn is taught to be a Blessing, and one which should be cherished, and not abused. To simply engage in a certain lifestyle, which is deemed for "Pleasure" and not "Purpose" of Devotion, and Procreation, is what all Three Major Religions actually frown upon. Homosexuality simply falls into the category of Non-Procreation, and thus I assume you could label it "Immoral".

Anyways, that is my best explanation, as I know everyone has differing opinions and interpretations.

How can Paul continue the teachings of Jesus when Jesus says there is but 1 teacher. When Jesus tells them not to make leaders of themselves.

How can Pauls teachings be a continuation when they go against the words of Jesus?

Am I to believe that Jesus was unable to do and finish the job he came for?

Am I to believe that the understanding I get from Jesus is false, and that only through Paul can I see the actual truth being told?

I think not.

You are free to have your opinion. But when you try to force your opinion onto others, and put yourself as above them and of right to do so. Then you have broken the commandment of love thy neighbor as thyself. Because you certainly wouldn't want someone forcing a way of life on you. It is not your place, and the only way you can get such authority is by breaking a commandment.

reply to post by L.I.B.


I don't teach anything. It is impossible for me to teach anyone anything. There is only 1 real teacher(god in all his forms), that is not a choice to follow, that is a fact. Sort of like the whole - thou shall not tempt the lord, it is more appropriate to say - thou can not tempt the lord. At most I can merely propose questions that will get them to seek.

You seek by asking questions. If you do not ask questions, then you do not seek.

I think Jesus has a reason when he says - "At that day ye shall know" in John 14:20. That is the real basis for understanding the bible, until you know and under that, the rest is just reciting based on memory. When you understand that, then the commandments make sense. And go from someone telling you to do something, to something you will want to follow.

"Anyone who in discussion relies upon authority uses, not his understanding, but rather his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci

How, when or why this happens is not up to me, nor could I predict it. But it doesn't come from the bible, it comes only from Jesus/God in a vision.

It is certainly not my place to decide who has had what experience, who is being honest about their experiences, and how is just appealing and wanting to fit in. Other than to say those things happen.

But I have no doubt that Jesus did what he did so that people could see the example and follow the path. Jesus made that point very clear and there is nothing valid Paul can say that changes it.

reply to post by azzllin

If people who follow Paul are called Paulians, then why are Christians not known as Jesusians?

They're not called Paulians. They are known as Paulinists, as in the title of this Web page. Those who find the OP topic meaningful will find plenty to interest them on that page, by the way.

I am relieved to say that I am no longer a Christian, or indeed much of anything else worth discussing here. But I do have an opinion on this subject, and it is a widely held one: Christianity and the Church are the invention of Saul of Tarsus, known to Christians as Saint Paul the Apostle. Jesus was just a hippie who didn't know when to keep his mouth shut and paid for it with his life.

i'm a christian not a paulian but i do have one thing to say in his defense (and this is really the only thing i can say in his defense because i didn't know the man!):

i believe he's the equivalent of the christian moses. he did the best he could with the information he had available to him but he was afterall, just a human being, and humans bring their life experiences into their teaching. so where i think the problem is, is our tendency to elevate the words of men to the status of God-like authority, which i don't believe is correct. jesus even points out that the people of his time were guilty of doing the same thing to moses and his teachings. the laws were not all laws of God. some of them were moses' best attempts at keeping the peace.

the message being, the biblical text are there for instruction, or edification, for enlightenment but they are not God-breathed. The Holy Spirit is the new teacher, your body is the new temple, and the word is Jesus.. not a book put together by the roman catholic scholars and jewish rabbis.

This argument is utter nonsense. Paul was certainly one of the more prolific writers, and to the new Church he was apparently given to instruction as even in his own time, some of the Churches were not following Christ, which is what Paul taught. He even had to educate some of the other Apostles, when their pride got in their way.

The fact that he was called speaks to his truth, and he was confirmed by the other apostles.

Give it a rest. This is a bogus argument for anyone who has gotten into the New Testament and actually studied, not cherry picked a few scriptures our of context.

My my.

reply to post by dooper


it's worse than that, unfortunately. i think he was inspired but he was also a man, and he brought his prejudice and his lack of full revelation with him during his letters. he was not jesus. period. we don't worship paul. we worship jesus. i don't know how much more clear it can be.

i would have to say i follow Jesus teachings (more often than not fail), as opposed to the paulian, i dont follow much of what the church says or does in fact i dont follow the church at all i always felt the church is too judgemental and only god can judge me

Badmedia you know it is not as simple as just accepting Jesus into your heart .
You first have to believe that he is >?How do you find that out ?Reading the word ...right ?I know none of us just decided to believe because someone told us we needed to ...at least I didnt ....... .....then you have to see that you need GOD in your life by ADMITTING that you sin and are caught up in them (the fleshly rules you) ...How would you know this ? by reading the word right ? The word delves right into why we are sinful and how our flesh rules our spirit etc ..........Then what about repenting ....you would not repent if you did not think you were committing sins (You may think everything is ok to do or say etc) like so many do ........How would you know what sin was unless you ?READ THE WORD ....
I did not read the word much either ..until I actually did for sure surrender my life over to the Lord ....(It did not happen at church ) after that night that it happened to me ....I wanted to read the word more than ever before .
It was the word that really helped me in understanding all of it ..
Sure Jesus comes to me in my dreams (ALOT) but nothing he ever says to me is contrary to scripture ..in fact I have had angels come to me in the middle of the night and explain scripture to me once when I was stuck on trying to understand something I had read in the scriptures .............
But still the word has it all in there and then it is the HOLY SPIRIT that teaches us to understand it (THY WORD HAVE I HID IN MY HEART SO THAT I MAY NOT SIN AGAINST THEE) >>..I read the word and then ask the Lord to help me understand it ...it really works for me to understand ....


About Paul ..just the fact that he used to be so bad (He killed Christians)..shows me just how merciful God is to us .....He forgave him ..not only that but he worked for the Lord from then on out ...even giving his own life up and following Jesus .....Pauls testimony was one of the reasons why I believed that the Lord could also forgive me of things I have done (even though I didnt do anything that serious) I still see that there is HOPE for anyone .......even some of those here at ATS who murder Christ all over again in their hearts ....................he still loves them and would forgive them in a heartbeat if they would just ask him to ..Paul is an awesome example of who Jesus is willing to save ...dont you think ?
I do not follow anyone but the Lord Jesus ...but I sure do not toss out those who are my FELLOW BRETHREN in the Lord who walked with him and were eyewitnesses to what he did and said ....(The Apostles) ...............
They all inspire me ....just like some Christians do .....I would not toss out anything they could teach me ..because I am not unteachable ...and I know for a fact I do not know it all ..and we do learn from eachother if we are willing .....some are gifted knowing some things (Prophecy) all have different gifts and I personally enjoy other believers and do learn alot from them ..(not all of them but the real ones sure can touch you and inspire you and teach you some things ...) .at least they have me ..



[edit on 27-11-2008 by Simplynoone]

I struggled greatly regarding Paul's writings and teachings. The greatest struggle coming from the fact that he declared himself, and as most do today, to be an apostle which would make him the 13th. This clearly goes against Rev 21:14 and the fact the remaining eleven apostles prayed and drew lots to choose the 12th Apostle Matthias to replace Judas. (Acts 1:24-25). Another point is that Paul gives 3 different accounts of his actions and those with him during the vision of Christ which led to his conversion on the way to Damascus. (Acts 9:4-8, 22:6-9, 26:12-14) Furthermore Christ reestablished the foundation of true worship with Peter, not Paul. Anyhow, I will sum it up by saying that I believe this entire Paulianity observance is one of many warnings that Christ was pointing to when he gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares. (Matt 13:24-30, 37-43). I no longer teach from the pauline epistles, I stick to the scriptures, the gospel and the non-pauline epistle books of the NT. Just my two cents worth.

Hi,
Pauls preaching had been challenged during his period, specially by Barnabas. There is a Gospel allegdly wriiten by Barnabas which may give some light on this. Google: Gospel of Barnabas.

reply to post by Simplynoone


No, I didn't get it by reading the bible. Jesus doesn't tell you it will come by reading the bible either. He says he will appear in dreams and visions. He says the holy spirit will teach you. And he says you will know that god and Jesus is inside you. I had my vision and I had no idea he even said that about visions and dreams until recently.

He says if you do not hear and follow his words, the words you hear are those of the father.

Once I learned the truth, then I realized the truth in Jesus and that he was an example of someone doing what I learned I needed to do(follow the commandments).

reply to post by badmedia


We've discussed what it means to ask for forgiveness before. You have to understand why it was wrong and then no longer do it. At which point it is forgiven and forgotten as it is something you will no longer do and is no longer an issue.

If Paul is a follower, then he is on the same level of authority as you are. As such, why should he be hailed up as authority on the example of Jesus? Jesus told them not to make themselves leaders or put themselves above others, that Jesus was the only teacher. And yet, that is exactly what is done when people quote him as truth, rather than the words of Jesus.

When I see people who call themselves Christians spewing hate and spreading destruction, when questioned how many times do you think I see a quote from Jesus? How many times do you think I will see a quote from paul? It's always quote after quote of paul, not Jesus.

Perhaps Paul did not mean for people to follow him, but there is no doubt that many people consider the words he spoke as truth on the same level as Jesus. To the point where he is used as the authority to tell people they are wrong and do not understand Jesus when someone points out the words of Jesus to them.

Paul was known as Saul and a persecutor of Christians. He killed and helped kill many of them. He never met Jesus and didn't even live at the time of Jesus.

Now if you were against Christianity, and wanted to persecute them further, what better way to do like Paul and claim to have a direct link with their god, and then corrupt their teachings with his own teachings?

GOD dont like homosexuality
(long before Paul)
he nuked Sodom and Gomorrah for it