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US Military.... why?

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posted on Jan, 28 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


Actually it has a lot more to do with a lack of decent training. I was in during the eighties and my brother was career. The Army watered down training to the point that you could longer do more than 25 push-ups at a time!!! Don't be too hard on the boys...someone will call a congressman. The schools like JOTC, Ranger School, Airborne, Air Assualt got to be pretty easy by the time I left the military. You couldn't even cuss singing cadence during PT runs, they shortened maximum run distances. etc... Then they let woman in...The training is at girly level in the US Army. My brother was a drill Sargent and he said it was pathetic how prissy it had become since 1978 he went through basic training...
Anyone that claims that 90% of the enlisted ranks isn't there for the money, or for the institutionalization is DELUSIONAL. VERY few men are true soldiers...Warriors, well that's another thing. A soldier is a ROBOT, not a warrior.




posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by odd1out
 

I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

The same principle applies with most jobs. You are not allowed to say certain things, you are told to say certain things, whether true or not.

You don't do what the boss says, you don't sat what the boss says, and in general, it's urass.

I also know some guys who served then, and were quite frankly, glorified arms smugglers.

The world is a crappy place, and blunt honesty is not always desired, nor practical. And other things are just better off left unsaid.

I recall after a particularly violent action, I had papers sent on occasion from home. I read the newspaper reports on the action, and the only thing they had correct was the date.

And this was the reporting, not the military. So even if you'd told the absolute truth, there's a good chance it wouldn't have made good copy, and reporters are notorious to sitting in a bar drunk, just making up the news.

Look at the utter BS we hear from Gaza. Iraq. Afghanistan. Pakistan.

I don't even want to get started.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 03:41 AM
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reply to post by theendisnear69
 


But this isn't about the military complaining, is it? This is about a kid (you) trying vainly to match your extremely limited life and military knowledge against people on this thread who are far more qualified to speak to such things.

When you people ("soft America") fix the economy that you screwed up - then you will see people like me and others who stayed in for a secure job start leaving the Army to pursue our actual goals.

You tout your squatter friends and your lack of a job as an achievement when in reality - it's not. What good do you think you are? LOL! Do you provide anything to your community? Do you understand what that means? Do you have a career lined out? Could you provide comfortably for a family? Have you left your mom's house yet and gone out on your own? No. You don't. You try to use that as fuel - but in reality it makes you look worse than you already do. It's funny. It's sad. Sure - I'm not a recruiter, and I'd actually prefer people like you stay out of the Army, so you're not hurting me by not joining. At all.

You and your ilk make me sick.

I don't care about your convoluted sense of what you "think to be right" while you're "smoking your pot" with your "friends." That doesn't concern me. What does concern me is that you are so blatantly ignorant to a swath of subjects ranging from the economy, to the war in Iraq, to how the military actually works that I'm surprised and a bit disgusted you actually posted in the thread. But go ahead - stay in and fight if you want to. That's your choice. Just do some research before you start making weak half-attacks at people like me and the others who serve/ed in the military.

You're a kid, kid. You don't know how things work yet. Do some growing up and we'll talk again.

Until then. I'm not responding to any further posts by you.

While I'm on a rant - for the French guy who was posting - can't even remember his name - - - - Did your ENTIRE culture forget who the Nazis were? Yeah - we're not the US Army from 1944 - but your country wouldn't be where it is today if it hadn't been for a little Allied (not solely US, but ALLIED) operation called Overlord. I'm sure you can google/wiki that really easily.

On to the next topic:

Dooper - I know what you mean man - we were in Iraq during OIF 1 for like 6-8 months eating K Rats until they started to get some halfway decent chow set up - and even then, it was MREs for nearly 5 months or so.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by mf_luder]

[edit on 29-1-2009 by mf_luder]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by theendisnear69
 



I screwed up the economy? I'm sorry but it was your generation who so valiantly screwed it up for me. I haven't had enough time to screw it up yet.

Do I provide anything for my community? Yes actually. My first job was working for a contractor to help build houses for people in need. As for my career, I am currently in school to become an EMT. I figured saving peoples lives is a better job than killing them. I haven't left my parents house yet??? What are you spying on me? Yes in fact I have moved out. I work and pay my own way. I'm not a drain on our staggering economy.

I'm sorry that not wanting to kill people for no damn good reason is ignorant. Yup i'm just a kid. I don't know anything about life. But going to Iraq would enlighten my whole world wouldn't it? It would give me the life skills I need!

Please tell me how I am ignorant I would like to hear.


[edit on 29-1-2009 by theendisnear69]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by theendisnear69
Ok I was wrong, big deal.

I've gone a day on one MRE while I was an eagle scout.

Can't complain I wasn't forced to join.

Just like the military


Holy Smokes, one MRE a day while in the Eagle Scouts! You know, I wasn't an Eagle Scout, but I'm pretty sure that military training is a bit more difficult that anything you faced in the Eagle Scouts.

Hey, what's the difference between the Eagle Scouts and the Military? Eagle Scouts have adult supervision.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by theendisnear69
I screwed up the economy? I'm sorry but it was your generation who so valiantly screwed it up for me. I haven't had enough time to screw it up yet.


Don't worry. You'll get your chance.


Originally posted by theendisnear69
As for my career, I am currently in school to become an EMT. I figured saving peoples lives is a better job than killing them.


Depends on who you're killing.


Originally posted by theendisnear69
I'm sorry that not wanting to kill people for no damn good reason is ignorant. Yup i'm just a kid. I don't know anything about life. But going to Iraq would enlighten my whole world wouldn't it? It would give me the life skills I need!


You don't have to be in the Combat Arms in the military. You can always use that EMT training and be a medic, or work Civil Affairs where you help out the locals with medical care.

Well, let's just say that going to Iraq, A-stan, etc, will really open your eyes to a lot of things, good and bad.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 




You are correct that I called Lt. Watada a coward, and of course it should be no surprise to you that I did so. Lt. Watada is a coward. There are other terms that mean the same thing and are certainly more colorful, but they've really cracked down on profanity here on ATS, so I will not be able to adequately accommodate you in that aspect.

Those combat rules are not as you called, "machissimo" BS. But then again, I would bet good money that you've never actually participated yourself. By participated, I mean splattered with gore, bleeding yourself, numb from adrenaline shock, standing over the bodies of those you just killed, daring any other enemies to show themselves. Taunting, you're so mad.

Now, maybe you would like to go back to your UN soldier buddies who fed you this line of crap and query them as to their precise proximity to the fighting.


I think your soldier friends are FOS. All the way to the top.

Me Lai occurred many years ago, and murder of civillians is not a uniquely American capablility. It should be noted that upon the invasion of Europe in 1944, once American and British Commonwealth troops were nearby, a lot of suddenly bold "good citizens" of every liberated nation rounded up former "collaborators" and such, and executed them on the spot without any semblance of a trial. The reaon?

Same reason as the troops at Me Lai. Long-term frustration.

And your term suggeting the US Army is a "facist" army? My, my. I have good money I would wager that if the US Army had stayed home in WWII, you'd be speaking German right now.

Doing for others what they can't do for themselves is not a completely selfish endeavor.

A good thing to remember.


Oooook, so let me get this straight Me Lai, as you say, happened a long time ago and is therefor not relevant?

Couple of line further down you tell me I would be speaking German if it wasn't for U.S army, and this is more relevant?
Just want to remind you of the timeline wich is generally aknowledged by many historians, even U.S historians, My Lai: 1968, WW2 U.S involvement: 1941
I'm not trying to belittle what the allied forces did during WW2 but to say that the nazi's would have won if it wasn't for the U.S army is just plain stupid and show a limited understanding of history.
Now I don't know if you heard of a small country to the east called Russia, but they seem, after what i read, to have had a rather big impact on the results aswell.
And F.Y.I I come from a long line of professional soldiers, including my Grandfather who fought in operation market garden with british troops(sniper,he agrees with me). And my sister who has been a UNIFIL soldier for many years after she served her regular service (also agrees).

And just as a bonus for your brainwashed and uneducated head I'll be such a nice guy and get your facts straight.
It is a popular misconception among Americans that the US voluntarily entered WW2, at least against the Germans. In fact, the US didn't. The US entered the general war as a result of the attack on Pearl Harbor. But the US entered against Japan and did not, repeat not, declare war on Germany. However, a few days after Pearl Harbor, Hitler declared war on the US, thereby putting an end to the US dilemma. After a meeting between Churchill and Poosevelt, it was agreed that the British and Americans would have a "Germany first" policy. Whether the Americans would have declared war on Germany had not Hitler made the decision for them is one of the great unanswered questions of history.

As for L.T Watada, I see you as more of a coward blindly following instead of beeing brave enough to stand up for yourself, but I understand that it is a subjective meaning.

PS: I removed the war romanticing from your quote as I did not see how it had anything to do with my post



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


Finally - to futher w/ the "Our president doesn't support us" ignorance - how the hell do you know we all want to be over there in the first place? But - oh - wait - not wanting to go to Iraq wouldn't fit in w/ your brain washed theory would it?



[edit on 28-1-2009 by mf_luder]


Not wanting to go to Iraq........ Weeeeell, then why go?



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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Maybe because leaving a nation with such resources as the US has would be like a person without skin? But what do I know, I support the Iraq invasion.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by mf_luder
reply to post by theendisnear69
 


I just reenlisted again until 2014 "for the money." Until you people who are so gallantly staying at home instead of joining the military can fix the economy, I'll have my 3 squares and a cot* regardless of how bad the job market/economy gets.

I got mine.

*Expression. ACTUALLY - I get housing for me and my wife, full dental and medical coverage for free - free education up to a master's degree at any college I want - free electricity - free water - money for food AND a paycheck. So - 3 squares and a cot is a little understatement. I don't have a problem staying in for the "money." Thank you.



You just admitted to beeing a hired killer without any care for any cause....
One more time; you kill other humans for money!!!
WTF!!!
I don't like getting personal in any discussion, but you sir is a sick puppy and one of the reasons that we live in a world of war. It may come as a suprise to you, but most people in the world have something called moral, look it up if you have to.
And how is the economy going to get better if you keep spending insane amounts of cash on the war, you see a connection here? Guess not.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
It may come as a suprise to you, but most people in the world have something called moral, look it up if you have to.


Where have you lived? Definitely sound like someone who's spent a lot of time in the West and nowhere else.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by SuperViking
Maybe because leaving a nation with such resources as the US has would be like a person without skin? But what do I know, I support the Iraq invasion.


Kind of off topic, but what the deuce:

With such resources....

You thinking about the 2.400.000.000.000$ foreign debt?

You know consuming stuff isn't a resource, producing is.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by odd1out
 

Odd1out, yes. I know. The Army recently changed to a softer approach to Basic Training, stating that the yelling and near impossible demands traditionally made on new recruits have no value. Now, the troops will have to wait until actual combat to experience the yelling, chaos, confusion, noise, and near impossible demands that combat on occasion requires. That should only cost a few thousand lives.

The truth is, some idealistic, uniform-wearing pantywaist asked the SOLDIERS what the more irritating elements of basic training were, and somehow determined the already know fact that no one likes being yelled at and being required to perform under pressure.

Hell's bells!

What idiot thinks actual combat is an exercise in civility? You train like you fight. You WILL fight like you train!

If you wait until actual combat, you'll find a lot of unpleasant requirements such as confusion, noise, turmoil, multiple immediate requirements, and an absolute requirement to perform under stressful conditions.

Oh yes. There's going to be lots of yelling. Mixed in with shooting and even screaming here and there. But to keep enlistment numbers up, the US Army wants a kinder, gentler training with no yelling. Regular hours. Reassurances. Comforts.

It truth, it would be more realistic and beneficial for two or three drill instructors to gang up on a single recruit, simultaneously screaming and yelling, with on yelling "help!", one yelling "target, two o'clock!" and one yelling "RPG! RPG!," while he's on the rifle range trying to qualify, with another shooting just alongside, just for effect.

Now we take a softer approach to basic training, which actually should be the first culling stage. No yelling. That is so sweet. Do the drill instructors also provide their platoons with cookies and milk at bed time, rub their tummies, and tell them bedtime stories?

Yes, the easing of standards will fill body bags and do nothing to increase the effectiveness of the combat arms. Thucydides wrote millennia ago:

"We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best who is trained in the severest school."

Herodotus, who was describing the predicament of Xerxes at the Hot Gates as his best troops were being slaughtered wholesale by the Thespians and Spartan Peers wrote:

"It became clear to all, and especially to the king, (Xerxes) that though he had plenty of men, he had but few warriors."

Boy.

Some things just never change, do they?



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by odd1out
reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


Actually it has a lot more to do with a lack of decent training. I was in during the eighties and my brother was career. The Army watered down training to the point that you could longer do more than 25 push-ups at a time!!! Don't be too hard on the boys...someone will call a congressman. The schools like JOTC, Ranger School, Airborne, Air Assualt got to be pretty easy by the time I left the military. You couldn't even cuss singing cadence during PT runs, they shortened maximum run distances. etc... Then they let woman in...The training is at girly level in the US Army. My brother was a drill Sargent and he said it was pathetic how prissy it had become since 1978 he went through basic training...
Anyone that claims that 90% of the enlisted ranks isn't there for the money, or for the institutionalization is DELUSIONAL. VERY few men are true soldiers...Warriors, well that's another thing. A soldier is a ROBOT, not a warrior.


Hehe, I don't worry to much about congress men

This mindlessness is just so exhausting that I sometime get a bit worked up.
But I will keep your words in mind.

Dooper has been seeing too many action movies I guess, I used to love them to when I was a kid, but lo and behold, I grew up and developed a consciousness. Any soldier I've ever talked to never used that kind of language about battle situations, it's like it's taken straight from some cheesey ww2 book.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by SuperViking

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
It may come as a suprise to you, but most people in the world have something called moral, look it up if you have to.


Where have you lived? Definitely sound like someone who's spent a lot of time in the West and nowhere else.


None of your beeswax, but I'll tell you anyway:

-europe (Holland, Denmark, Norway, France)
-s.e asia (Thailand, Phillipines)
-n-america (Canada, USA)
-middle east (Saudi-Arabia)
-africa (Ghana)

But your right, most of my life in the west....
And you? ASL?



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
You just admitted to beeing a hired killer without any care for any cause....
One more time; you kill other humans for money!!!


So, you think guys that join the military should do it for free???



Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
I don't like getting personal in any discussion, but you sir is a sick puppy and one of the reasons that we live in a world of war.


Sick puppy? Because he's decided to make a career of the military? And what's wrong with that? As I said before, there are a fair amount of career fields that don't even come close to fighting.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Dooper has been seeing too many action movies I guess, I used to love them to when I was a kid, but lo and behold, I grew up and developed a consciousness. Any soldier I've ever talked to never used that kind of language about battle situations, it's like it's taken straight from some cheesey ww2 book.


Really? He's talking like 99% of the troops I know.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
You just admitted to beeing a hired killer without any care for any cause....
One more time; you kill other humans for money!!!


So, you think guys that join the military should do it for free???



Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
I don't like getting personal in any discussion, but you sir is a sick puppy and one of the reasons that we live in a world of war.


Sick puppy? Because he's decided to make a career of the military? And what's wrong with that? As I said before, there are a fair amount of career fields that don't even come close to fighting.

#1 I never said to do it for free, but to do it just for money is insane.
#2 Se #1



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen

Originally posted by SuperViking
Maybe because leaving a nation with such resources as the US has would be like a person without skin? But what do I know, I support the Iraq invasion.


Kind of off topic, but what the deuce:

With such resources....

You thinking about the 2.400.000.000.000$ foreign debt?

You know consuming stuff isn't a resource, producing is.


Can you name two nations with more natural resources than the United States?

Also, you spent time in Saudi Arabia and you're talking about it being immoral to kill your enemies?
That's rich.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


You put Me Lai in any sack you wish, friend. Knock yourself out. Your overall grasp of history is somewhat skewered anyway.

As for whether you'd likely be speaking German (at least as a second language) except for the US and the US military, let's have a look at your claims since you dismiss the possibility so outright.

You're correct. The US didn't want any part of the war. We had just gotten home a few decades earlier pulling France and Britain's bacon out of the fire in the First World War, and it just seemed like you guys couldn't figure this whole war thing out.

After all, if you wanted another fight among yourselves, who were we to deny you that pleasure? But for Japan making a fatal error, we would have been satisfied to watch. You had Australian troops, New Zealanders, Indians, Burmese, Canadians on and on, but you had material and transport problems.

It was the desperation Churchill described that compelled us to make the European theater our principle fight. As for Russia, the US also supplied them with massive supplies via Murmansk convoys.

Except for the sheer weight and volume of men and materials supplied by Americans, including coal and food, the invasion of Europe ala' Operation Overlord would have never occurred. Even your victory in Northern Africa was enabled by masses of American weapons, supplies, tanks, and thousands of artillery pieces, along with ammunition.

The Germans would have only had one front except for the Americans. Period. And I dare say, had all those German divisions been freed up, the Russian front may have been a bit different.

Whatever bug you have up your butt over America, get over it.

So you're expertise is that you have a grandfather that fought at Market Garden? You seem to place a great deal in your pedigree.

I can't say the same. We were mutts. James Crawford (mother's side) fought the British alongside Morgan at Cowpens against Bastard Tarleton, and Francis Marion, and raised his nephew Andrew Jackson, who whipped the British again at New Orleans.

In the Civil War, we are a bit ashamed that one rode with Bloody Bill Anderson and Joshua Riggs (father's side) rode with Moseby.

My grandfather fought in the First World War IN EUROPE.

My father and uncles served as well, one was killed at Pearl Harbor, two landed by parachute at Normandy IN EUROPE with the 101st Airborne, one killed the first day. The other also jumped at Market Garden, and ended up getting a buzz at the Eagle's Nest, and has a few personal effects of Das Furher locked away in a safe deposit box. My dad's two younger brothers fought in Korea.

But you know what? That all means diddly squat.

A man has to pull his own trigger. Fight his own fights.

As for my brainwashed and uneducated mind, I have three degrees, one from the top ten programs in the nation. I'm a published writer with my book all over the internet, available in all nations.

I volunteered three times for combat, and voluntarily extended my combat tours twice.

Lt. Watada was and is, a coward by any definition any sane, rational, prudent person would wish to use.

And son, I'll tell you a secret.

Those war pictures you refer to?

Not even close to the real thing. No expended ordinance vapors to breath in, no moaning of the victims, no stinking greasy blood all over you from head to toe, no tissue splattered all over you, no quiet emptiness when the shooting stops, and no pick up after the action.

They leave all that stuff out.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by dooper]



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