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US Military.... why?

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posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by an3as
Been reading through this, and I am amazed that ignorance on such levels even exists. For any man to fight other peoples wars is just a sign that he do not understand the reason of the battle. Some of the american soldiers might think they are on a misson to bring freedom and democracy to the world, but how can they bring democracy when their own country is as far away from a democracy as it is?
And another thing;
Can anybody explain to me the difference between a soldier and a hired killer? Do soldiers ever get to decide who`s the enemy?
And to those who claim to know better because they have been to war, I just feel sorry that you can not see that you are beeing used as a tool for reasons held from you... A real man does not fight on command, he fights for himself.
The only way to bring peace to the world is to understand that we are all the same. The mothers of iraqi and afghan soldiers are as afraid for their sons health as your mothers are for you.
The whole war is a lie, and you know it. If you dont feel that there is anything wrong with the way america thunder ahead I suggest you take some time off, and come back when you are ready to think clear.
I refuse to fight in a war started by men who refused to go to war..

please exuse my language, as english is not my first language..


And I've always loved people that don't want to fight, don't want to go into the military, that call Soldiers "tools".

I think that the US has a lot more freedom and democracy that most countries out there. Try protesting in North Korea and see what happens. Or try protesting in Iraq prior to Saddam getting the rope.

"A real man doesn't fight on command, he fights for himself". Just what do you mean by that? If your country is invaded and your government calls you up, you don't have to go? That's "fighting on command".

Peace is great, but you need to know that some people out there don't care about peace, unless it's under their rules. I'm not really inclined to want to be governed by Sharia Law any time in the near future, no matter how many people out there think it's no big deal if they start implementing it into Western society.

Saddam was a two bit dictator, not even in the same league as Hitler and Stalin. I'm glad he's dead, and I think the Iraqi people are the better for it.




posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Answer: You just choose to forget your foreig debt?


When nations invade other nations, they usually don't pick up their debt. You bringing up debt never had anything to do with what I was talking about anyway.



Answer: Here i re-state that I have a problem with people killing other people for money. And what make the people of Iraq and Afghanistan your enemy?


The people of Iraq and Afghanistan aren't my enemy. You realize who killed most of them, right? It wasn't Americans.



Answer: I have never been to Iraq or Afghanistan, you are right, but I do have first hand repports not biased by the media and as I have earlier stated, I think it gives me a great advantage over the people who is in the situation.


I wasn't just taking about Iraq or Afghanistan. There's many places where life is much harder than your average Western country, where people dying is commonplace. I've been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once so...



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Oh, sorry about that. You're the idiot, not luder.... Or wait a minute, you both are.

You or luder, you're both wrong. And you are both ignoring the ugly facts about yourself.


You know, your mom will kick her out of her basement when she finds out you get off calling people idiots.




Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Hehe, I couldn't care less if you think I'm a covard or whatever, I think both you and you know what I stand for. In my eyes Jihadist warriors have more honour than you could ever fathom (no no no, I did not say I support Jihadist warriors) , they know what they are fighting for at least, you're beeing fed a lie wich you wholeheartedly swallow as it is wrapped in words like; patriotism, bigger cause, war on terror, protecting our interests, stay the course, land of the free, democracy, national security, nations of the willing (best joke ever by Bush by the way), and the rest of that package.


Oh, and you don't think that the jihadists aren't being fed a line of crap from their leaders?

Sorry, Junge, but I know what I fight for. I really don't give a rats ass if you understand that or not. I will not be losing any sleep.

Now, run along and be a good example. Move out and draw fire.



Oh, didn't mean to hurt your itsy bitsy feelings by calling anyone an idiot, I'm so sorry oh greatest of warriors


The Jihadists are beeing fed a line of crap, but not as big a lie as you guys.

If you know what you are fighting for, can you please explain to me as you seem to be under the impression I do not?

Now, run along and be a good example. Move out and be expendable idiots in your corrupt regimes little game to make the rich richer and the poor poorer



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 04:53 PM
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reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 

First, I'd like to thank you for your avatar. Such a reasonable, expressive young man you are.

I can only speak for myself, but I never fought over politics, didn't fight for my flag, my nation, for freedom, and never did I fight for democracy.

I fought for those beside me.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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When nations invade other nations, they usually don't pick up their debt. You bringing up debt never had anything to do with what I was talking about anyway.


Ok, I'll give you that one. (not even I'm perfect event though it's easy to get that impression
) But having the ability to realise your own mistakes is a virtue I do not see with you army tossers, oh sorry, U.S army doesn't do mistakes... Cause it's the right way, the wrong way and the army way:p



The people of Iraq and Afghanistan aren't my enemy. You realize who killed most of them, right? It wasn't Americans.


Can you please inform me who or what killed over 90.000 civillians in Iraq?
And a small side step: Why is opium production in Afghanistan up by like 900% since the invasion, I'm not saying you know, but it's interresting. Maybe, just maybe you are supporting the CIA in exporting heroin to europe and america, they sure did it before with cocain in south-america. Maybe yor not just fighting for oil, but heroin too, huzzah!




I wasn't just taking about Iraq or Afghanistan. There's many places where life is much harder than your average Western country, where people dying is commonplace. I've been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once so...


I have travelled extensively in SE-Asia and Africa, and you been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once so....



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 

First, I'd like to thank you for your avatar. Such a reasonable, expressive young man you are.

I can only speak for myself, but I never fought over politics, didn't fight for my flag, my nation, for freedom, and never did I fight for democracy.

I fought for those beside me.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.


Ah, don't mention it honey, it's just for you
and thanks.

This is the reason I respect Jihadists more than you, or even IDF soldiers, they have a cause, even if it's wrong they will allways have more honour than you will ever be able to imagine.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Oh, didn't mean to hurt your itsy bitsy feelings by calling anyone an idiot, I'm so sorry oh greatest of warriors


Oh, my, personal attacks. Typical. Another Internet tough guy.



Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
The Jihadists are beeing fed a line of crap, but not as big a lie as you guys.


My troops and I aren't being talked into being suicide bombers. The jihadist seem to do that quite often, and on top of that, do they attack US military targets? Nope, they'd rather blow up a market crowded with women and kids.


Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
If you know what you are fighting for, can you please explain to me as you seem to be under the impression I do not?


Sorry, Poindexter. The question is in your court.


Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Now, run along and be a good example. Move out and be expendable idiots in your corrupt regimes little game to make the rich richer and the poor poorer


Wow, another "idiot" remark. That's two in one post. I think your mommy will be spanking you now.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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[edit on 30-1-2009 by an3as]



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 




The fact that other countries have more or less freedom or democracy than the US, does not silence the fact that your leaders obviously are corrupt.
That is why i talk about US soldiers as a tool.

When have your country been invaded? Not since the native-americans were slaughtered has your land been invaded.
If the US was invaded it would have been another story, but you were never invaded, you are the invaders and have been for quite some time.

When you talk about the sharia law, I agree with you, I dont want it. But I dont want a world run by extremist christians either..
If you are interested in history, you can do some research on the big world religions, and how they all are based on the same foundation.
And if you are afraid of the muslims, why are you constantly pissing them off and giving them a reason for building more hate against the US?

I agree that Saddam was bad, but it does not justify your actions in their country. Maybe you think you are helping things, but I am pretty sure that the iraqi people are not to happy about their country beeing flooded with american soldiers who kill for freedom either...



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by an3as
The fact that other countries have more or less freedom or democracy than the US, does not silence the fact that your leaders obviously are corrupt.
That is why i talk about US soldiers as a tool.


Name a country that doesn't have corrupt leaders. I think ours are just go about it a bit more slicker than some.


Originally posted by an3as
When have your country been invaded? Not since the native-americans were slaughtered has your land been invaded.
If the US was invaded it would have been another story, but you were never invaded, you are the invaders and have been for quite some time.


Try again. War of 1812. British burned the White House and the US invaded Canada.

The US is the invaders? Well, yes, we are. We invaded Normandy in 1944. Guess that was the wrong thing to do. We also invaded Inchon in the 1950. Might as well have let the North Koreans take it all.


Originally posted by an3as
When you talk about the sharia law, I agree with you, I dont want it. But I dont want a world run by extremist christians either..
If you are interested in history, you can do some research on the big world religions, and how they all are based on the same foundation.
And if you are afraid of the muslims, why are you constantly pissing them off and giving them a reason for building more hate against the US?


I think the US and the Muslims have a new sport of pissing each other off. And I think the Muslims would be pissed at the US regardless of whatever we do.


Originally posted by an3as
I agree that Saddam was bad, but it does not justify your actions in their country. Maybe you think you are helping things, but I am pretty sure that the iraqi people are not to happy about their country beeing flooded with american soldiers who kill for freedom either...


So it was OK for Saddam to toss people into that woodchipper? To torture and kill how many people in Kuwait when they invaded in the 1990's? And how about the fun and games his two sons were up to? Guess we just needed to turn a blind eye to them.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


You don't know your Jihadists. They kill for their religion, or to follow the leaders of their religion. They are some of the most ignorant people on earth. Fact. Just zealots.

Zealots, despite a few, select, outwardly impressive strengths - suffer many more glaring weaknesses that in turn can be used to their defeat.

Zealots - morally bankrupt and miserable, with no self-value, spouting unattainable ideals, are the most vulnerable to public, crushing defeats.

Zealots gain all their strength from the promise of hope. And once their confident hope is conclusively and forever crushed, they fall. New converts cannot be approached without exaggerated hope.

One will note that the leaders of these zealots continue to live and direct activity. If a true zealot themselves, then why not strap on a vest, or grab a weapon, and show the others how it's done?

That's because they don't believe the BS they teach. They rely on the ignorance of others.

With 100 men, and a couple hundred thousand dollars, within six months, I can stop all suicide bombings, and almost eliminate the attacks on our military.

And if you think you have problems with what is going on now, you'd bust a sphincter if you saw me do what was required.

But we rather be polite and let the killing continue.

But I have hope.

One day . . .



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Oh, my, personal attacks. Typical. Another Internet tough guy.


Yes, because I don't have a weapon to protect myself I have to hide behind this computer, and I have zits and drink coca-cola all day. Im propably a virgin living in my mothers basement and this is the only way I can feel important, o.k? Now back to what's at hand, and I will try to refrain from using the "i" word, as it seem to fascinate you so much, jeez.....





My troops and I aren't being talked into being suicide bombers. The jihadist seem to do that quite often, and on top of that, do they attack US military targets? Nope, they'd rather blow up a market crowded with women and kids.


Neither are Jihadists, they do it voluntarly, and you don't attack military targets, who do you think you're kidding? At least you have the tech to fight in what by some (certain right wing media) is considered fair way while the terrible terrorists only have crude explosive devices. Thats how people from the resistance fought the nazis in WW2 in Europe.




Sorry, Poindexter. The question is in your court.


O.k, seeing how you don't seem to know, what can I do? The question is in my court..... But I know.





Wow, another "idiot" remark. That's two in one post. I think your mommy will be spanking you now.



Yeahyeah, Im sorry, I just thought you army guys was a bit hardskinned, but in the post I answered to I was actually beeing told to "run along and draw fire", but beeing called an idiot is propably worse than beeing told to be a firing target in the army. (at least I don't bi*ch about it)



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by SkurkNilsen
 


One will note that the leaders of these zealots continue to live and direct activity. If a true zealot themselves, then why not strap on a vest, or grab a weapon, and show the others how it's done?

That's because they don't believe the BS they teach. They rely on the ignorance of others.



Hmmmm, that very much sound like the leaders of all armys in the world, you know many members of congress who been parttaking, or the former president, secretary of defense, and so on..... They are also religious nuts who send others to do their killing of women and children in the name of God.
Any pattern forming here?



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Neither are Jihadists, they do it voluntarly, and you don't attack military targets, who do you think you're kidding? At least you have the tech to fight in what by some (certain right wing media) is considered fair way while the terrible terrorists only have crude explosive devices. Thats how people from the resistance fought the nazis in WW2 in Europe.


Yeah, voluntarily. Promise of virgins in paradise and all sorts of wonderful things. Still, US troops aren't be promised beer and women to blow themselves up.

Fight fair? That seems to be a problem here on ATS. Since when are you suppose to fight fair in a war? I must have been asleep during that briefing, since I always thought the whole objective of war is to win with the least amount of casualities on your side.

And the terrorists are terrible. Maybe you'd think the same thing if you were in a market place when they decide to set off a car bomb and you're trying to scoop your little sister's guts back inside of her.

And the resistance in WW2 was mainly attacking German targets, not blowing up some Sunday market in Paris simply because the people there weren't of the same tribe/religion they were.



Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Yeahyeah, Im sorry, I just thought you army guys was a bit hardskinned, but in the post I answered to I was actually beeing told to "run along and draw fire", but beeing called an idiot is propably worse than beeing told to be a firing target in the army. (at least I don't bi*ch about it)


Whatever. You got me weeping here.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
Yeah, you're really brainwashed... Who in their right mind would want to occupy the USA? Someone with alot of cash that's for sure, maybe that's what US needs, leave the country to the Chinese at least they know how to produce instead of just consume, and then you may have a slight chance of getting out of the financial mess the country is in.


Ok, so I'm brainwashed because I know that a country that has no military is one that is helpless. That's brainwashed? Do some research on what brainwashing is, then come back and talk to me about who is brainwashed.

What does cash have to do with invading/occupying/attacking the US? The country being in debt doesn't really mean much when any invading/occupying country wouldn't inherit that debt since it's the government that owes and not the land. We have more than enough resources to make it worthwhile for someone to try and occupy us if they really wanted to.

If we had no military it wouldn't take long before someone would try. I stand by my previous statement. Not having a military would do nothing but leave us open to attack from anyone who decided that they wanted to. Our military may very well be the only thing that has prevented any other country from trying to invade since the 1800's. Well, that and the "gun behind every blade of grass".


One more thing, if you're a soldier,


I'm not and didn't claim to be.


why would you criticize your commander in chief, if you joined the army you signed away your right to do so. And you made the decission to be under someones command, then i kinda guess you're buying into their ideology as well. The soldier is just as guilty as the commander since the soldier of his or her own free will joined the service.


Why does anyone criticize their boss? No one agrees with every single thing their boss says in the civilian world, why do you expect any different from those in the military? Those in the military have not "signed away" their right to disagree or criticize.

People join the military for different reasons. Some join for the college benefits, some for the money, some for the job security, some because they don't really want to do anything besides be in the military, etc. There are probably a million different reasons for people to join the military, and not all of them include "buying into their ideology". A soldier is only guilty of any crimes they personally commit, and the majority don't commit any crimes. Would you be guilty if your boss embezzled company funds? Would you be guilty if your boss ran someone over in a car? I think not.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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I was in the US Air Force for 13 years and left with rank of captain. It paid for my education and I made the best friends of my life. I fought in Panama and Desert Storm. Never once did I ever think I was being used or manipulated....I just owed the country a debt for paying for my education is how I saw it. Never regretted it and never will. I fought for and with my brothers at my sides...and I know they did the same for me. A wonderful feeling of friendship that not all get to experience. Just my 2 cents.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 





Yeah, voluntarily. Promise of virgins in paradise and all sorts of wonderful things. Still, US troops aren't be promised beer and women to blow themselves up. Fight fair? That seems to be a problem here on ATS. Since when are you suppose to fight fair in a war? I must have been asleep during that briefing, since I always thought the whole objective of war is to win with the least amount of casualities on your side. And the terrorists are terrible. Maybe you'd think the same thing if you were in a market place when they decide to set off a car bomb and you're trying to scoop your little sister's guts back inside of her. And the resistance in WW2 was mainly attacking German targets, not blowing up some Sunday market in Paris simply because the people there weren't of the same tribe/religion they were.


You are on the other hand beeing promissed freedom, democracy, jobs, money and a stop in terrorism, both are blatant lies. But the point is and was that they acctually believe in what they do.
On one hand you are accusing one side of not fighting fair because they use suicide bombers, on the other you say you dont have to fight fair.... O.k your logical problem for you to solve.
No, I would not like to be blown to bits by a suicide bomber, that would be counterproductive for my life in my opinion, but the risk of that happening is much bigger now than before operation enduring freedom (ironic name) and the illegal occupation of Iraq.
The saboteurs in WW2 did their missions regardless of the knowledge that the nazis would slaughter innocent civillians as punishment for these.

Check this out if you'd like some facts:Iraq War

PS: Didn't mean to make you sad



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


You are right, your leaders are slick, really slick, they just dont know how to cover their tracks.
ok, the war of 1812, I stand corrected.

The US figths and invasion in WW2 would have been more convincing if your if your leaders, like Prescott Bush havent made big money from steel factories with jews as workers. Not to mention the fact that your moneymen supplied Hitler with both money and weapon supplies alongside very few others but the vatican. You are fooled just as easy today it seems..

I dont stand for any invasion, not by iraq, not by the US, for one good reason;
when you invaded Iraq, you ignored the rest of the world, and went on your own "holy" mission. Using the Coallition of the willing as some kind of exuse for the fact that you had little to none support for your opinions. And they talk about his w.o.m.d. , witch there were none..
The reason for the invasion was a big lie, as was 9/11..
This is pretty clear for us who have been able to see it from the outside, but I can see the difficulty in accepting that big parts of your country is based on lies and propaganda.

I didnt like saddam, I didnt like his sons, but that does not give me the right to invade countries, without support from the world..



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:41 PM
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There are so many quoting and arguing against me at this point that I will make it breef. As you can read in one of my earlier posts I go back on the whole foreign debt thing and admit I was wrong and that it belogs in another forum.
Second I'm not saying there should be no military, but that the US military should be looking to cooperate with UN, Europe and the Arabic countries and follow international law. Going to war under false pretenses isn't to cool either.
I didn't mean to say that you were in the army, sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that.
If one is in the millitary one of the most important things to do is follow orders, therefor I think that if one do not agree with what ones government is doing, don't join the army. Economical reasons, education, comraderie etc.. What makes the military special from another workplace is that in a bank one very seldom get in a situation where one have to kill someone, that, to me, means that one should be extremely sceptic to joining such an organisation for the wrong reasons. Ofcourse you are not responsible for your boss running over someone in his car (I'm not saying your boss did), but if he asked you to go run over someone then the story is kind of different. Is there a chance you'd be sent to kill people for oil and heroine trade then that in my book is a good reason to not join. These are human lifes, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers, the same goes for all US soldiers who have been killed in the US wars up to date.
Feel free to remind me if there is anything you feel I didn't answer.



posted on Jan, 30 2009 @ 06:52 PM
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International law is a joke. Nations go to war or exert pressure for their own interests. Not those of the international community, or for the constituents of other nations. Strong nations can get away with it, weak nations cannot.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand, but I guess I can see what people can be upset about. Life's not fair- oh well.



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