US Military.... why?

[edit on 27-1-2009 by SkurkNilsen]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by SkurkNilsen

 

You call BS?

And just who are you?

Questioning, criticizing, and the other things I already mentioned have become a skilled art in the military.

Yeah. They care about what they do, and I assure you they question the why's as well.

All soldiers know about lawful and unlawful orders. To suggest that they don't is insulting to them.

And THEN, there's the principle of getting the job done. There's the right way, the wrong way, and the military way. And a good soldier knows when to use each.

After all, "Self-command is the hardest command." Michael C. Riggs

What do you care who I am? What do you mean?

Questioning, criticizing has become a skilled art in the military? Yeah, but if you do so officially you'll be charged like Lt. Watada. en.wikipedia.org...

The only reason he's not been convicted seems to be that the courts do not seem to be sure wether it is a lawfull operation or not. So obviously if the courts don't know if it's unlawfull or not then how can the soldiers?

The right way, the wrong way, the military way.....
I'll quote myself from a earlier post: U.S troops are famous among both UN soldiers and British soldiers for beeing extremely nervous in combat situations, witch in turn make them agressive and trigger happy. I believe most of the unnecessary violence in both Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan is due to this, and general desensitizing making even the most horific act seem normal.
Seems to me that it's also a "US army way" of going about things. I do not condemn all military actions, but the way the US army is behaving itself in a combat situation or reconaisance missions. I know this from talking with several U.N soldiers formerly serving in Lebanon (British, Norwegian), personell from the Dutch army serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq and Norwegian personell serving in Afghanistan. Where other soldiers have respect for local civillians US army personell are widely known to be so nervous that they pretty much shoot anything that moves, you seem fear stricken as a result of fear mongering brainwashing by your country and military.
Of course the decission makers who set the rules of engagement must take a bigger responsability, but even so a soldier has moral, like LT Ehren Watada, and has a moral obligation to refuse to commit to these actions.
The alledged hijackers of 9/11 could be said to just follow orders from their commanding officer, but they themselves took the decission to obey that order.
You can spew out as many bold words you want about, dedication, bigger cause and honour you want, but action speaks louder than words.

After all: Self controll is the only controll. -S. Kurknilsen

PS: sorry about typo's, but english is not my mothertongue.

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
I know this from talking with several U.N soldiers formerly serving in Lebanon (British, Norwegian), personell from the Dutch army serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq and Norwegian personell serving in Afghanistan. Where other soldiers have respect for local civillians US army personell are widely known to be so nervous that they pretty much shoot anything that moves, you seem fear stricken as a result of fear mongering brainwashing by your country and military.

Right. I think you're mistaking "being aggressive" with being nervous. Two different things. And besides, I don't think the Dutch are doing any active fighting in A-stan because they believe they are there for reconstruction, not fighting.

www.nytimes.com...

reply to post by jerico65


Well, one thing leads to another, nervous------>agressive.
Dutch forces are not active in combat in Afghanistan, but are present and have eyes and ears.

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


You base your claims on talks you've supposedly had with UN soldiers and from what you've seen from an outside point of view.

Have you ever talked to any US soldiers about their actions? Have you ever been in a combat situation to know what it's like?

Until you can answer yes to these questions, nothing you present here will lend a lot of credibility toward your claims about the US Army.

Any of you who don't know any US soldiers or who haven't been in combat can't speak intelligently about these types of situations because you have no grounds - no basis for what you would do in the same situations. I'm sorry, but that's the way the world works. I wouldn't attempt to tell you that your job was screwed up or you were doing your job wrong without having done the same job myself, would I?

I don't need to "spew" any words of boldness or honor. I've been to Iraq for 2 years - I've been in combat situations. I know what it's like. You don't. I don't care how much "talking" you've done - you don't know what it's like. So, once you've gone and found a real live US soldier (like me) to talk to about our military and what we each (as individuals) think and do, take your hate mongering elsewhere.

We're not "brain-washed NWO drones." That seems to be the easy cop-out on this site for a lot of you people. "Brain washed." Maybe someone should go start a thread on exactly what brain washing really is so you guys can get educated.

reply to post by mf_luder



This is too easy......

Do you have to be a killer to know that it is wrong to murder?

Do you have to be a liar to know its wrong to lie?

The military personell I've been talking to have observed US troops for themselves, and speak for themselves, I do not see why they should lie about it.

I think seeing it from outside the situation actually gives me an advantage as I am not desensitized and still have a shred of humanity left, if you are in the situation I think that you have no credibillity because you are defending what you do no matter.
What I would do in such a situation is not relevant because I would make damn sure I never fall under anyone's command but my own.

What are you talking about; hate mongering? I never said I hated anyone. For me these are just plain fact's beeing observed by many more than me.
I feel sorry for you, how can I hate you?

If you are brainwashed NWO drones.... How would you know?

I understand you need to justify your actions, it's how the mind can live with itself if it knows the heart is wrong.

My gramps was in WW2 in the pacific and he is the kindest most sincere person i have ever meet.

My cousin and his wife are both doctors in the military. They do no harm to anyone, all they do is help.

Any NCO or officer I have meet has been nice and polite aswell as very well spoken.

All the enlisted men I have either meet or known have been mad chill.

I would love to join the military and serve my country, but they wont let me in cause I smoked weed when I was younger.

Having been one of the most ardent and outspoken posters on this thread,

To try and bring balance, and truth about what some of the facts are of the campaigns in Iraq and the poor way some of the marines have been trained and behave there as in Here

And that I know You Tube was changed after I posted these youtube links and stories lol:Here

I would like in balance to maybe to bring in the less heated debate , but discussion between myself and a real warrior (I hope) from ATS who I am sure would not have behaved as some of my posted vids/interviews show

here: Honor Knows no Rank

Kind Regards,

Elf.

reply to post by TheKingsVillian


If you are in the US? you may find it a bit easier now, if you join the cadet corp, and prove you dont anymore, offer to pay for tests every month maybe the cadets will let you in.

I am sure they with letters of recommendation from said family, would consider it now as a lack in manpower.

I don't personally condone the Military operations happening now, but dont let your past hold you back, go and speak to a guidance career office or such like and ask them to explore your options, and what chnages you can do now to open doors in the future.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


Skurk, let's get this one out of the way real quick. Lt. Watada is a coward. Not a moral coward, not a moralist. A coward.

And friend, if you ever want to impress me, don't hold up a coward as an example. A coward in the military is as useful as henschitt on a pump handle.

These knowledgeable soldiers who mentioned that US soldiers get "nervous in combat situations," were they by any chance in the same "combat situation?"

To edify you, and increase your knowledge, let me clue you in to the first rule of combat:

Dooper's Rule #1

Fast is good, and slow is dead, so fast rage will get you home alive and well eventually, while slow deliberation will get you home in a box now.

Dooper's Rule #2

The faster you shoot, the less shot you get. The faster you kill, the less killed you get. (I know. Difficult to comprehend. You have to think about that one a bit.)

Dooper's Rule #3

A civilian with a weapon isn't a civilian.

Dooper's Rule #4

A rifle barrel sticking out a door or window is likely to have the rest of the weapon immediately attached behind it, and that weapon is likely not aiming itself.

Dooper's Rule #5

The enemy never watches until you relax.

Dooper's Rule #6

The guy who knows a guy, who talked to a guy, that heard about a guy's actions - doesn't exist.

Dooper's Rule #7

If you come to a gunfight, bring long guns, and lots of friends with long guns with short tempers.

Dooper's Rule #8

If there are rules of engagement, it's always the most stupid ones. Ignore.

Dooper's Rule #9

Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

Dooper's Rule #10

If it was worth killing the first time, it's worth killing a second time. Dead men killed twice hurt no one.

Gee. That just about covers all your arguments.

Sorry.



[edit on 27-1-2009 by dooper]

[edit on 27-1-2009 by dooper]

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Nah I'm in Australia.

I passed the every test, Apptitude, Class A medical.....Then i went for my Psych and i was honest when he asked if i had done any drugs, i said i smoked weed when i was younger. He told me to come back in a year.

I got a job paying 60k a year like i was going back in a year for 32k

I don't think anyone bash the members of the military as much as the established and the politics as an establishment it is forced to play.

Nothing to me is more tragic than sending good people to kill and be killed to make fat rich guys more rich and fat.

Those who serve, I have the utmost respect for. Those who ask the military to carry out imperialistic objectives, I abhor. That is the few families who own everything who tell the politicians who tell the generals to tell our good men and women to kill and die for the very few at the top to gain more global control.

Trust me if TSHTF, I am standing next the soldiers in the military who actually follow their oath to uphold the constitution which I have no doubt will be by far the majority of the military.

Anyone who serves in the military first and foremost if my fellow human being that deserves the same liberties and freedoms as the rest of us and if it comes down to it I will protect you as much as you would protect me.

So please do not confuse my hatred for puppet masters at the top who use the military with those of you who actually do your job and make the sacrifice to be in the military.

reply to post by dooper


I'm not quoting you, as you are just regurgitating what you been instructed.

Ofcourse you'd call LT Watada a covard, no suprise. But you fail to answer if the court's actually found the operations lawfull or not.
The rest of your post pretty much proves my point with that type of machissimo B.S.
And now you'r going home in a year or so anyway, cause your own president doesn't even support you, HA!

And if there is any doubt, heres proof that the proud U.S army is no stranger to murder and rape of innocent civillians worty of any facist army:
link to BBC article

Originally posted by SkurkNilsen
And if there is any doubt, heres proof that the proud U.S army is no stranger to murder and rape of innocent civillians worty of any facist army:
link to BBC article

Did you check the date of that? 1968. How old were you? I was three.

Now, of course, you'll trot out the same old, tired, incidents that have happened in Iraq. Have there been times when US troops (Army and Marines) been accused of shooting civilians, etc. Yes, there has.

Figure out how many troops have had these accusations filed against them. Now, find out how many troops have been in Iraq since the war started.

What percentage have been accused of committing crimes compared to the total amount that have been in-country?

Originally posted by TheKingsVillian
All the enlisted men I have either meet or known have been mad chill.

Damn, I wish I were an enlisted man again instead of an NCO, so I could be "mad chill."

Don't worry about the weed. You're honest and that's what counts. If the recruiter told you to come back later, then do so. Or try for the Guard/Reserves if you want to keep your civilian job, too.

Originally posted by jerico65
I wish I were an enlisted man again instead of an NCO

Um, NCO is enlisted.

Our military is just a miniaturized version of our society.

What you see is what we are.

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


Skurk, I do not regurgitate what I have been instructed. I was however required at the university to regurgitate what we were told simply to pass our tests. It's the preferred method to excel in the world of academia. Regurgitate. Repeat. Learn by rote. Repeat the same.

Not in combat. All tests are pass/fail.

You are correct that I called Lt. Watada a coward, and of course it should be no surprise to you that I did so. Lt. Watada is a coward. There are other terms that mean the same thing and are certainly more colorful, but they've really cracked down on profanity here on ATS, so I will not be able to adequately accommodate you in that aspect.

Those combat rules are not as you called, "machissimo" BS. But then again, I would bet good money that you've never actually participated yourself. By participated, I mean splattered with gore, bleeding yourself, numb from adrenaline shock, standing over the bodies of those you just killed, daring any other enemies to show themselves. Taunting, you're so mad.

Now, maybe you would like to go back to your UN soldier buddies who fed you this line of crap and query them as to their precise proximity to the fighting.

Fifteen minutes of intense combat can be as exhausting as twelve hours of heavy manual labor. During those moments of desperate combat, the body is dumping hundreds of chemicals into the bloodstream to enable the fight, and the moment it's over, the drain is unbelievable.

That 1,000-yard stare? Numb exhaustion. And only when it's over and the threat is removed will one begin to experience any shaking or nervous energy that must be expended.

I think your soldier friends are FOS. All the way to the top.

Me Lai occurred many years ago, and murder of civillians is not a uniquely American capablility. It should be noted that upon the invasion of Europe in 1944, once American and British Commonwealth troops were nearby, a lot of suddenly bold "good citizens" of every liberated nation rounded up former "collaborators" and such, and executed them on the spot without any semblance of a trial. The reaon?

Same reason as the troops at Me Lai. Long-term frustration.

And your term suggeting the US Army is a "facist" army? My, my. I have good money I would wager that if the US Army had stayed home in WWII, you'd be speaking German right now.

Doing for others what they can't do for themselves is not a completely selfish endeavor.

A good thing to remember.

reply to post by SkurkNilsen


LOL

First.

Don't show me or anyone else a link to an article from ANOTHER COUNTRY about our military to prove your point.

Second - our president doesn't support us?

You really are showing your intelligence level here. Our president doesn't support the previous administration's goals. There is a difference. He has given our commanders the orders to come up with a responsible timeline for draw down.

Finally - to futher w/ the "Our president doesn't support us" ignorance - how the hell do you know we all want to be over there in the first place? But - oh - wait - not wanting to go to Iraq wouldn't fit in w/ your brain washed theory would it?

Hmmmm.........


And Dooper - I'd bet dollars to donuts he's never been anywhere near a combat zone at any time - soldier or otherwise. Those of us who have know what it's like. You can never expect civilians to understand.


[edit on 28-1-2009 by mf_luder]