Official Obama- McCain debate thread

I really don't want to comment on who won the debate. I have a bigger concern. Everybody seems to put so much emphasis on the debates. The problem with debates is that they tend to favor those that are good orators, and those that have facts, no matter how small, memorized.
What I want in a President is someone who THINKS through all of the ramifications of his/her actions, BEFORE making a decision, not who can come up with the best sound bite. Some of our best presidents, such as Jefferson, were horrible speakers, and in fact, he didn't even give his "State of the Nation" message in person to Congress. Instead, he sent them letters each year.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


i agree with that. you dont have to be a good speaker to be a great president but when you look at it, public speaking is a good trait or quality to have and rather we like it or not, its something people are going to look at.



[edit on 9/27/2008 by Bean328]

did McCain look at Obama once? Was this done on purpose to look superior to Obama? I think it looked bad on McCains part. Of course others will think it was pure brilliance, I think it came across as rude.

Oh, good, greeneyedleo reminded me of this (fast-moving thread, heh):

reply to post by Spoodily

I live in Alabama. When you see white trash enough and hear their views first person you tend to see that they aren't progressing.

(edited for brevity)

I see a lot of people supporting McCain because he's white and Palin because she's a redneck, with no other reason.

I need to state here that I do not see Palin as a 'redneck'. Considering that has been my nickname (by the choice of others, not myself) for my entire adult life, I think I know what a redneck is.

Palin is not a redneck, but she is conservative to the extreme and an avid outdoors-person. That in itself is garnering her a lot of support. opeople tend to back those who they see as similar to them. McCain has in the past been able to project himself as a military man and an ex-POW. Those labels carry a lot of support with middle-class America. Now Palin is touching middle-class America as well, with her common-man references ("the only difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull is lipstick").

Obama is apparently appealing to the people who are seeing that Bush (who also had that common-man appeal) has failed so miserably in advancing their causes. Obama also is appealing to the thinkers, those people who can get behind him due to his perceived ability to think things through before acting on them, and ability to agree with other ideas while still finding the flaws in them.

But please, being from Alabama (my home as well) you surely know what a redneck is...

TheRedneck

Originally posted by bknapple32
did McCain look at Obama once?

No. And I don't think it reflected well on him at all. Especially after saying that he would look Putin right in the eye. Yeah, right. If he can't even look Obama, a fellow Senator, in the eye, how is he going to look the leaders of non-ally countries in the eye?

I don't think he did it on purpose. I think he hates Obama and can't bear to look at him. We'll see at the next debate if he changes his "tactics".

I think when you don't look a person in the eyes when speaking to them indicates a couple of things. 1) you could be shy and it is a bit personal to look into the eyes of someone when talking to them. 2) It makes it very very hard to lie because you think you will give it away if you let the other person see your eyes. 3) If the person you are speaking to "knows" that you are lying, then it is even tougher....think about any relationship you have been in and they tell you to "look in to my eyes and tell me where you were" they wouldn't have asked if you were looking them in the eyes in the first place.

McCain won the debate. He used good old reliable political tactics and I think American's are susseptible to that crap still. Obama was too "English" too polite and proper, too statesmanly. He had a couple of great opportunities to twist things on McCain and didn't....

For example; Obama said that if we find Osama or any high ranking bad guys in Pakistan AND Pakistan was "unwilling" or "unable" to take care of it...we would. McCain's response was..."you don't tell people that" "you just do what needs to be done".....to me that was saying, "Obama you naive person you, we don't tell the American people what we are going to do. we just do it....like Bush...like Cambodia..and etc...." I thought that Obama should have jumped on him...."Jon, I just want to be clear on what you mean by, 'we don't tell people' we just do it" opportunity missed.

McCain used the word "I" so often that I was waiting for him to say that he invented the internet or wrote the Geneva Convention Accords.

I fully expected Obama to take McCain down huge during this debate...but he didn't at all. McCain did well, too well. I of course didn't believe half of what he was saying but that doesn't matter, it is what the American people believe......I wish they would allow Ron Paul to debate!

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
McCain won the debate.

If that's the case, then why are Obama's poll numbers up today?

Gallup Poll

Yea here are the numbers...from realclearpolitics.com

National Gallup Tracking Obama 49, McCain 44 Obama +5
National Rasmussen Tracking Obama 50, McCain 44 Obama +6
National Hotline/FD Tracking Obama 48, McCain 43 Obama +5

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
McCain won the debate.

If that's the case, then why are Obama's poll numbers up today?

Gallup Poll

In all fairness:

These results, from Sept. 24-26, are almost entirely based on interviewing conducted before Friday night's first presidential debate. This suggests Obama was moving into a slightly better positioning as the two met in Mississippi to debate foreign policy matters and the economic crisis. The five percentage point lead for Obama in today's update is one of his best in recent weeks, just short of the six-point advantage he had in Sept. 17-19 polling.

I think Obama got the bump due to McCain's transparent attempt to change his lagging momentum by rushing to Washington (where neither he or Obama were wanted), then back to the debate.

I think McCain held up quite well. I expected Obama to trip him up, but McCain proved quite agile. What he didn't appear was presidential. He seemed angry and smug.

I think that played badly to many people of various political ideologies. I think the post-debate polling early next week will reflect that.

We'll see.

[edit on 27-9-2008 by clay2 baraka]

Originally posted by gb540
I give both sides failing marks, for completely dancing around whether they support the $700 billion-out package.

Why is a straight, simple, YES OR NO so hard to get?? How many tries did it take for Jim Lehrer to get Obama's "We're waiting to see" and McCain's shrugging "Uh, yeah" non-answers?

If they don't have the guts to take a real stand, they don't have the material to be President.

Both camps had better make better showings in the coming debates, because that Ron Paul write-in is looking better every day.

------------------------------------------------

I just had to address this.
A simple Yes or NO?
This is the best way to explain it:
"Ladies and Gentleman, we are going to do something a little different tonight for our debate. We have set a table out with all of the componets required to make a nuke, and for added excitement we have added some componets from a washing machine just to make sure they don't just get lucky putting the nuke together. Now if they do it wrong they will blow themselves up and of course those of you listening within 50 miles of here.

That $700 billion bailout is the nuke. There is no way in hell that these two know what the answer is. You couldn't get 20 of the greatest economist in all of history to agree on what the best solution is. If either of the candidates "pretended" to know, than we would be voting based on their guess at best or their pandering at worst.

You just can't expect or more importantly want a simple "Yes" or "no" to any question on any issue. BUT that is exactly what the Powers that be want. They want you to vote for the guy against Abortion. They want you to vote for the guy that will raise the minimum wage. They don't want you to know what they would have to do to do it. You want your candidates and campaigns to be fast food for your brain. That is why negative ads work so damn well.

Like I said before....McCain won the debate if your measurement is going to be what "works" what "sells" what "buys votes" Obama won if you consider what "should" a leader look and sound like.

But does it matter? McCain won. and whatever it takes to get into the WhiteHouse. I don't want Obama to stoop to his level but I am afraid he is going to have to and of course that is what the O'Reilly's and Limbaugh's are just drooling for him to do. Maybe I just don't have faith in the American people and their IQ's.

This election is our Country's IQ test this year. It really is. I apologize to the Obama fans for not believing that there are enough of you to win the day. I want to vote for Ron Paul, I really do, but I can't let that turn into a vote for McCain. I am selling out my principles because I don't trust the American people.

reply to post by Res Ipsa

Well, hello Res! I had been wondering where you had gone to. An insightful post as always.

McCain won the debate. He used good old reliable political tactics and I think American's are susseptible to that crap still. Obama was too "English" too polite and proper, too statesmanly. He had a couple of great opportunities to twist things on McCain and didn't....

Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part, but it seems to me that Obama is attempting to appear more statesmanly and not stoop to the same old mudslinging attacks that seem to appear every two years. Obviously, he has to defend himself, but he seems to try at least to do so in a more intellectual manner than McCain (who has shown himself thus far to be very good at half-truths and innuendo-based attacks). Now whether or not that will fly with the American people, we not know for sure until November. Part of me agrees that we are still "susceptible to that crap", but another part of me is hoping a few more of us have overcome it in the last two years... at least enough to turn the tide against the mudslingers.

Yeah, I guess I am a little naive sometimes.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by bknapple32
Yea here are the numbers...from realclearpolitics.com

National Gallup Tracking Obama 49, McCain 44 Obama +5
National Rasmussen Tracking Obama 50, McCain 44 Obama +6
National Hotline/FD Tracking Obama 48, McCain 43 Obama +5

These numbers are usually compiled off old data (2-3 days). We wont see the effects of the debate until Monday or Tuesday.

For those who missed the debate, or want to review it again:

When I said that McCain won the debate I was giving my "objective" opinion. I would be thrilled to death if it turns out the American people are smarter than I cynically gave them credit for.....WAIT

I'm not saying that you are dumb to be a McCain fan.

I'm saying that McCain used tried and tested methods. He was not trying to be honest or sincere. He just can't be that different of a person than he was back in the days I liked him. But he is selling something and he is not being the guy I knew or thought I knew. I don't like what he is doing but he is trying to get elected as President of the United States. I am not going to judge him on any tactic he chooses to use to do it. He could yell out Obama murdered someone and if it works than good for him.

I hold American's accountable to weigh what is said. They should all know what is at stake and what a candidate will do to get elected. I of course am pleased to see how Obama behaves and how he complimented McCain on numerous occassions during the debate, and yes I was mad at McCain's lack of character in his responses or lack there of.

But what I think matters so little because I am just one vote. When I said McCain won the debate I am not speaking about my take on it. That would be subjective. I know what has worked in the past and what McCain has being doing is from that same playbook. It is the American people that need to decide if that is cool with them or they want someone else that certainly appears to be one different dude. I kind of like the integrity stuff.

Redneck, I decided to take a break from school crap and waste a weekend on ATS. I doubt I'll be around again for a while. I was trying to read for my Federal Courts class but got distracted thinking about how in the hell I was going to repay $125,000 in student loans if I couldn't find a job out of school. Then I thought, gee, what could I do to get my mind off of how crappy the world seems to be. So, of course I thought, Hey, why don't I visit ATS, those threads are always so positive about our future.
.......well, in a way, maybe I won't have to pay back my student loans! Hey, when is the world coming to an end again?

Damn, at first I thought "oh man, Obama's owning McCain" as the old senator seemed to wobble around on the economy a bit, seeming very unsure of himself. But somewhere around the half-way point he found himself and hammered Obama pretty good on foreign policy issues.

The two key points that caught my attention didn't make Obama look too good. First, that fumbling *snip* about "I've got a bracelet too!" Puhhh-leease. Then the part where McCain hit him on talking to Achmadinajabadamadingdong, "He says we're going to wipe out Isreal and what do you say? No you're not?"

I thought Obama's remarks about education were ridiculous.

He's talking about funding education, saying we need to be able to compete. He says China just completed a space walk, and says we need to keep up?

Dude, We did that 43 years ago.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 9/28/2008 by maria_stardust]

Jerico,
I too had an issue with the "I got a braclet" but because Obama didn't slam McCain on his pandering. Obama had to think of a way (quickly) to say..."come on Jon! We all have braclets and it all means something and gee aren't we in touch with the American people, aren't we just swell guys who really care....quit the bull#ake, here do you want to see my neat blue one?" That is what Obama tried to say but really couldn't so it came out the same as McCain's to try and neutralize any impact his dumb braclet had. It was a lose lose situation, but he should have been ready for it and had something better to come back with. So what I am even screwing up in explaining is this. It was shameful on McCain's part and an inept response to it by Obama. They both looked silly as hell.

.....shoot you had another point I wanted to comment on....thinking.....
EDUCATION!
There couldn't be a more important issue. (that is saying alot too)
We have to boot the government out of it. The end of public schools. An end to indoctrination by the government. Vouchers. Let parents like me choose where I send my kids. I am a third year law student so I have had a few years in school. I went through the joke of public school. (have you noticed I can't spell worth sheit?) Obama sees the goal of education but sees some different way to get there. We do need to get our Country smarter. The older I get, 41. The dumber I see people. Our best and brightest come in by the hundreds from China and India and everywhere else because our kids are being groomed for Walmart jobs!!!
Science? Math? the last math class I ever took was Algebra in 10th grade! I am mathamaticly retarded!

I can and should and do have the responsibility to teach my kids (4 of them oldest 11) morals and how to be a decent human being but schools are going to have to teach them how to spell, math, science, (sure I can teach them the law but that is years down the road) I want my kids to go to a school where the teachers teach and not spend 90% of the time trying to get some other retarded kids to behave! I get so Jihadist about public education in America, sorry.

Democrats are wrong! thinking that public schools can be "reformed" or improved. It has to be a business. If you suck then you lose, you close, you go out of business. If you are good you have teachers that can teach. If your kid blows it he is "fired" go find another school. If my kid blows it then I am responsible for not teaching them how to behave.
Republicans are hypocrits! They don't want the youth of America to get an education. If you know the truth than they are screwed. You can't have a public than can think for themselves. Oh, they want their kids to be educated, just not the poor or minorities or trailer kids.
Any education reform on the table is a band-aid and as disingenious as our reasons for going to war in Iraq. Just not the truth.

....man could I rant on this like you wouldn't believe but I'm starting to lose my objectivity and focus.

Bottom line: America will never be allowed to be what we should be, what we are capable of being until the education of our kids is a real and honest priority. School needs to be a business. Damn straight that the government should PAY for it. Vouchers, Scholarships to those kids that really care, that have any ability. To those parents that don't care or the kids that don't care...well we need Walmart employees and I want fries with my $1 double cheeseburger. Fricking people in this Country think they are entitled to something. Education is power! A smart people would never let Bush get away with what he has. We wouldn't have this $700 billion bailout. We have not been taught to think critically. We can't tell the difference between a lie or the truth. The candidates get away with it because we mostly have bad public school educated voters. Jay Leno makes fun of these people all the time with his "street" interviews. Aren't any of you embarrassed with how dumb we are? (as a whole) Don't you wonder why? Forget the damn abortion issue or capital punishment or dependancy on oil or the war in Iraq or any other single issue. Education reform has to be the #1 and it needs to cross party lines. Throwing money to crappy teachers is not the answer. AND it isn't all their fault, how many of you could motivate yourself to teach everyday when you have a bunch of retarded, spoiled, misbehaved, texting to their friends, disrespectful, can't beat the hell out of, brats pissing you off everyday. Burnout?! Any teachers out there? Can I get an Amen?
.....the joy of having 8000 characters to rant....sorry again.

reply to post by iamcamouflage



[[[[DRUDGE POLL]]]] WHO WON THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

MCCAIN 68% 269,473

OBAMA 30% 119,324

NEITHER 3% 10,105

Total Votes: 398,902

www.drudgereport.com

This debate was Obama's to lose and he DIDN'T!
Foreign policy was suppose to be McCains strong point. 30 years of experience that out weighed this young inexperienced Senator from Illinois. Obama kept strong, he stood toe to toe with McCain. Obamas points and counter points were awesome. He looked and acted as a President of the United States. He looked his opponent in the eye often. This tells me he would look at any leader of an opposing country in the eye and tell it like it is! McCain never looked Obama in the eye once. He was grouchy and his posture looked awful. If this was done during talks with a leader of a foreign country, the talks would never start.

I thought Obama was going to lose the foreign policy debate. Miserably! But nope... I think he won. He was thoughtful and distinct. He agreed with McCain several times on several things and then elaborated. He had the knowledge.

If McCain didn't smoke Obama in the Foreign policy debate. This is very bad for his campaign. This means if Palin loses to Biden it's over!

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Originally posted by skeptic1
I think McCain edged out a narrow victory in this debate.

Not a "knocked it out of the park" victory, but he edged out Obama....IMO.

People can claim bias but the MSNBC poll has Obama as the winner of this debate 49-36. 143,000 voted.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Here are the numbers from the Drudge Report....

[[[[DRUDGE POLL]]]] WHO WON THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

MCCAIN 68% 269,473
OBAMA 30% 119,324
NEITHER 3% 10,105

Total Votes: 398,902

Almost 3 times as many people voted...

www.drudgereport.com

reply to post by Res Ipsa

EDUCATION!
There couldn't be a more important issue. (that is saying alot too)
We have to boot the government out of it. The end of public schools. An end to indoctrination by the government. Vouchers. Let parents like me choose where I send my kids.

I agree that Education is a very important issue. I won't rank the important issues, though, because I also think that affordable health care and defense are also very important.
After spending most of my career in the business world, I took a Professorship position, and it truly opened my eyes as to the decline in educational standards in the US.
Although I ended up teaching 3rd and 4th year classes in the Business School, my first few years I taught some freshmen classes. That was an eye opener. Many of the students couldn't write an essay that wasn't loaded with spelling and grammatical errors. In addition, their knowledge of American and World History was pathetic, as was knowledge of our government and structure. I began to wonder what the high schools were teaching. I checked several of the students' transcripts, and was surprised to see virtually all A's and B's for such students.
Who is to blame? Well, as Hillary once said, it takes a village! (I can't believe I actually quoted her!) At every level, including the college level, grade inflation was rampant. The students felt that they should get an A just for coming to class. The parents try to put pressure on the teachers to give high grades, with the argument that if Johnny or Mary doesn't get all A's and B's, they won't get into a good school. If a teacher doesn't give in, they're vilified, and accused of being a poor teacher. Furthermore, teachers then pressure school board members, who then pressure administration, who then pressure the teacher to "ease up". At the college level, students seek out the "Easy A's", and end up learning very little, but earn a degree with a high GPA. Then the student gets out in the world, gets hired, based upon that high GPA, and when they can't perform, companies start with the outsourcing and H1B visas, claiming that we are not producing good students.
The grade inflation must stop. I am for the voucher system, since it increases competition, and forces a better quality of education. However, that is not enough. The tenure system is archaic and counter-productive, especially in K through 12. Furthermore, IMHO, unions have no place in education. I have seen teachers on a picket line, acting like thugs, and using obscene language and gestures. What kind of lesson does that teach to our children?
American Education is truly broken, and a complete revamp is needed.