Official Obama- McCain debate thread

reply to post by jam321


I'm trying to get picked up by the Army to fly helicopters. I was against the war but I really want to be a pilot so I hope we can keep it going for a a while .

Healthcare is so expensive when purchasing it through your employer. I did that once and decided it was better to have money in my pocket than hope I get sick to make it worth my while.

I think these companies making huge profits need to chip in for the betterment of the civilians. A healthy employee is a happy employee. Some of these company's CEOs are walking away from their jobs with millions in severance packages and there's people that can't even get a pair of glasses to see or their teeth fixed.

There will always be people who try to abuse the system but other countries have free healthcare and they are doing ok. Things might go a little rocky at first but in the end I think if the lower class people were happier it would trickle upwards.

Spoodily, wish you luck flying helo's and appreciate the conversation. As far as the election, may the best one win. And like you I hope people pick their candidate for the right reason even if their reason is different than mine. Have a good one.

Originally posted by jam321
I was once for Obama when he talked about bringing our troops home.

And that was his plan all this time? Yet the fact he wants to place some of those troops into afghanistan, a necessary war, all of sudden this turns you off and now your for McCain? Somebody who never intended to bring troops home? Somebody who still justifies this war of lies?

Im sorry but this excuse from you just does not cut it as to why your supporting mccain, it doesnt make sense to be frank... Infact Im hearing plenty of mccainers claiming their independents, ron paulers and former hill voters etc.. While this is somewhat true most of them are just BSing in my opinion... its the "impartiality" ploy here.

I was for the war but the mismanagement got to me. If Iraqis didn't care Al-Q was destroying their own people why should we.

Tell me, what was the Iraq war initially for Jam? WMDs? Regime change? Freedom? for the surge? I mean the reasoning just continues to change ya know?

But slowly and truly he started to move away from his position to win more votes.

He never changed his policy on iraq buddy, either your not looking into them and making assumptions or your making excuses again.

He showed me that there wasn't change just a play on words.

Then what is change Jam? Because voting in somebody who agrees with Bush 95% of the time certainly aint change buddy... somebody who will continue with the same people from the Bush administration aint change... Somebody who has lobbyists running in campaign aint change....

So tell me why is John McCain change? If your voting for a third party candidate well im sorry for my mistake but other wise please answer this.

I believe people need to help themselves and not just depend on government to take care of them.

Certainly, this is most definatly true. Yes im sure they do, unless in the case of getting raped or molested.. I guess thats the governments decision right? I mean theres sorta double talk there. What about when a company collapses and down goes somebodies entire life savings... and they cant claim it back because ya know.. its a free market. Accountability is so damn hard to come by.

Obama seems to feel Government should take care of them by giving them healthcare instead of working with businesses to help provide healthcare.

Obama wants the government to be for the people, by the people, or else government has no purpose. People have a option as to whether they need assistance from the government in understandable situation, nobody is being forced to get a hand out. And do you really expect big business to work in the interest of people?

So we should put trust in big business to look after us? Isnt this current mess a lesson to us Jam?

Companies like Walmart will continue to pay cheap wages

Yes and over the years the Bush administration has fully supported such measures.... and McCain has just been full steam ahead.

Oh looksy what I found!
rawstory.com...

mmm McCain voted 17 times against raising the minimum wage.

So why still support McCain?

The stuff in between these ( and ) are mine..

Originally posted by jam321


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342 economic development programs; ( is the economy developing I ask you???)
*
130 programs serving the disabled; (do the disabled still need help? Is there a point in spending this money?? Nothing has changed, they will need more help yet... this is not the way to solve the problem)
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130 programs serving at-risk youth; (oh I guess this means there are no more youth at-risk?)
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90 early childhood development programs; (yet again is this working yet?)
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75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities; (That sounds like a good way to get tax payers monies)
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72 federal programs dedicated to assuring safe water; ( how long is it going to take to make the water safe.. they haven't figured out how to do this yet??)
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50 homeless assistance programs; ( Yes and we know that there are no more homeless, soon as they put this in place)
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45 federal agencies conducting federal crimi­nal investigations; (oh and I see how well this works..)
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40 separate employment and training pro­grams; (have they run out of jobs in McDonalds??)
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28 rural development programs;

(again, solving the homeless situation..)


Talk about redundancy.


I agree. It's like for how many years have they been running these programs yet nothing is different. Maybe they should quit spending the American peoples monies and get on with life.

reply to post by southern_Guardian

all of sudden this turns you off and now your for McCain?

like you like to tell everybody else...go get your facts straight. Nobody can't say anything about obama cause you say their a McCain guy or a wannabe pretending independent. I never said I was voting for McCain. Just as easily as I defend McCain on something I can defend Obama on something too.

what was the Iraq war initially for Jam?

WMDs. of course you know that and your correct when you say Bush has changed reason time and time again. But my reason for supporting the war was WMD and I don't back down from it. We did find some just not what we thought we would find. Maybe if Bush daddy had let us finish the first war we wouldn't have had to worry about going in and fighting this war.

He never changed his policy on iraq buddy, either your not looking into them and making assumptions or your making excuses again.

you can twist it anyway you like. Bringing the troops home and sending them to Afghanistan is two different things. On top of that the rest would be in the surrounding and in Iraq. So if you want to continue making excuses for him be my guest.

Then what is change Jam?

Change to me is when you say something you stick to it whether it is popular or not. You don't cave in cause you have to move to the center. Instead you articulate why you stick to your belief. And Obama is a very intelligent and articulate man and in my view was capable of doing so. He might have lost some people because of the issue but would have won many more for sticking up for what he believes in. He was wrong to listen to his advisors.

double talk there.

you know as well as I do that we have a dependency problem when it comes to government. Now I don't mind helping people when they are in need but for this to turn into a long term care is outrageous. Someway somehow government has to start demanding something in return for this help. As it is now they sit back and get their benefits. How about they be required to attend college or Adult education and must show progress if they want to keep their benefits. Look at Hurricane IKE here in Texas. A lot of people didn't buy insurance cause they knew government would help them out. And in my opinion this is mainly done for votes.

So we should put trust in big business to look after us? Isnt this current mess a lesson to us Jam?

This current mess is due to government insisting that banks make out loans, mainly to minorities, so that they could own their own house. The problem was that the borrowers couldn't repay the loans. The lesson should be a hit on government not businesses. Cause government are the ones who passed the laws. Even the nutso pay CEO's get is a hit on government. How could you rewrite a bankruptcy law to punish consumers but yet let companies CEO's walk away with millions when filing for bankruptcy. Then you have the fact that the people responsible for oversight didn't do it or completely blew it off.

McCain voted 17 times against raising the minimum wage.

minimum wage isn't the problem. Can't find it now but only few are affected by this. Most companies already pay over minimum wage. The problem is companies like Walmart. They make billions and I believe the number one employer in the US. Yet they have these lousy healthcare plans that are expensive for employees who receive low wages. You can't tell me that they can't afford to pay better and get a good insurance based on all the employees they have. I really feel government and business can work together to provide better, cheaper, and more healthcare to employees. As of present they don't do that. I don't think it is fair for government to foot the bill while companies like Walmart continue to suck up profits.

Wal-Mart's Q2 profit rises 17%, raises full-year forecast


I believe I have responded to all your questions. Must say you are very lengthy when you write. Like I said Obama lost my vote, but ol MAC doesn't get it either. On the war, I want all of our troops to come home. Fighting terrorism like this isn't working. We are not fighting a country we are fighting a group. They will win cause they will bankrupt us.We need to go back to co-op operations to get the guys we want.


www.wakeupwalmart.com...

I haven't read every reply to this thread, but were we even watching the same debate? McCain seemed like he was having a senior moment every five minutes. Only when speaking about Iraq did he seem on terra firma. It wasn't a blow-out, but Obama had the edge.

Did anyone count how many times Senator McCain said the word "I"? He went on and on and on....I also noticed (but I'm for sound policy and logic and change, so obviously am bias) that Obama complimented him on numerous occasions saying "I agree with Senator McCain on..." such and such and "Senator McCain is absolutely correct..." on such and such... but did he (McCain) ever once do the same??? Perhaps he did, but I can't seem to recall?

I mean not be nit-picky and all... oh and other than that nothing stood out to me about the debate...what stood out whas the eratic / neurotic behavior displayed by Senator McCain prior to the debate (trying to throw a curve ball at Obama after he calls him at 8:30 am on Wed. morning for a joint statement...McCain get's back to him finally at 2:30 and agrees, but then hangs up and promptly announces that he is suspending his campaing and not going to the debate, then later that evening Bushy boy screws the screw in deeper with the invite of both of them followed by the next day's photo op and Bush having told McCain to bring an econ. advisor, but told Obama that nobody was necessary...) oh and standing up David Letterman lieing to him saying he had to rush to the airport to save the country when in fact he stayed in new york over night and didn't even leave till the next morning having plenty of time to go on Katey Couric and do other interviews.....boy if that wasn't a tell all I don't know what the hell is?

...and the icing on the cake was Palin's lovely interview (both days) on CBS with Katey Couric where she said her foreign policy experience was having Canada on once side of Alaska, and Russia on the other side and when "Putin rears his head, where does he go?"...Oh my god, who in their right mind would have ever picked that silly idiot for VP??? I was waiting for Katey to call in the guys in the white coats and cart her off to the funny farm! This whole thing on the Republican side is nuts!

[edit on 27-9-2008 by skyshow]

I watched this debate live. I felt Obama "won" this debate hands down! Both as a debater, and the substance of his points. I thought for sure the ATS community would reflect my observations. I was utterly surprised to see how many felt McCain did well. Or that it was even close...

At this point, all I can say is that I hope McCain doesn't become president.

I am still torn on who I will be voting for. As it stands, McCain isn't one of my options.

Sorry for not saying more about the actual debate itself. It's 5 am here and I am tired. I hope to post more tomorrow. I just wanted to express my surprise after reading this entire thread.

I was thinking the same thing. I saw a few times where people said mccains experience showed last night. Experience on wat. Everytime he tried to disprove or discredit obama he went on a 5 minute rant and I'm not even sure he knew wat he was talkin about. To tell you the truth not much if anything he said made sense to me.

He also hasn't exactly had the best track record on his past decisions so he's had experience making bad decisions.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Another thing I noticed goes to the character of the Candidates themselves. McCain kept belittling Obama with digs like constantly calling him niave and that 'he just doesn't get it', then the comment about 'on the job training'. Obama did not do this. I think this reflects well on his character. Just my .02 worth.

I agree with you. And these little jabs and belittling remarks seem to be what make the "points" with some people. That's why some people say McCain won. Because he was more insulting. I guess that's what "wins" the debate game in some people's minds.

Whereas I give "points" for intelligent answers, thoughtful strategies and calm, reasoned answers, and even acknowledgment of points of agreement, others give "points" for insults, jabs and other childish behavior.

No wonder we all have a different take on who "won". The scoring of points is different for different people.

I give both sides failing marks, for completely dancing around whether they support the $700 billion-out package.

Why is a straight, simple, YES OR NO so hard to get?? How many tries did it take for Jim Lehrer to get Obama's "We're waiting to see" and McCain's shrugging "Uh, yeah" non-answers?

If they don't have the guts to take a real stand, they don't have the material to be President.

Both camps had better make better showings in the coming debates, because that Ron Paul write-in is looking better every day.

From what I heard of the debate (I have no need to look at their mugs so I listened to it on NPR) they both did well but McCain continues to come across as petulent and offered little more than generalities and was continually dissing his opponent while Obama tried to offer real answers and was far more respectful of McCain than McCain was of him.

McCain presented himself like an angry, constipated old man. He never once would even look at Obama and constantly condescended him (constantly called him naive etc) like an old school teacher to first grader. Obama was gracious enough to point out some McCain's accomplishments where McCain would not acnknowledge Obama on any front.

Content aside, I would give Obama an A+ on character and McCain a D-. Make no mistake about it, character and control are necessary as a president. Next debate I think McCain should take an antiflatulent first!

[edit on 27-9-2008 by whatsup]

Originally posted by skyshow
Did anyone count how many times Senator McCain said the word "I"? He went on and on and on....

Thats how it has been all along from the acceptance speeches outward... its all about them... McCain and Palin and precious little about us.

Well I thought it was very close. I really don't care what the newscasters and media have to say. They will try to spin it one way to suit their own needs. I am more interested in the independent votes. I was watching the debate on CNN and flipping to Fox every now and then. CNN had a graph showing what the independents felt about the candidates answers and Obama had a lot better approval than McCain. I believe at the end they asked a group of Republicans, Democrats and Independents who they though won and *68% said Obama won.

I would have to say I agree with the group that Obama won but not by much. McCain continued with his old ways and America is heading for newer, bigger and better things and McCain is not the one to lead this charge. One of the big factor for me is how we are perceived by the World and I think America needs to go back to the days when it was well respected and McCain cannot do that, Obama will.


* Not sure of the exact number but it was around that...

Based on the poll numbers Obama won hands down and came across as more measured and calm than McCain did.

Several positive reviews for Obama. A CBS News instant poll finds:

40% of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. 22% thought John McCain won. 38% saw it as a draw.

68% of these voters think Obama would make the right decision
about the economy. 41% think McCain would.

49% of these voters think Obama would make the right decisions about Iraq. 55% think McCain would.

Two focus groups, one by GOP pollster Frank Luntz and another by Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg, both declared Obama the winner.

Independents in the MediaCurves focus group "gave the debate to Obama 61-39. They also think he won every individual segment. Republicans gave the debate to McCain 90-10, Democrats to Obama 93-7."

CNN's poll has all Obama winning overall, on the economy and on Iraq:

Who Did the Best Job In the Debate?
Obama 51%
McCain 38%

Who Would Better Handle Economy?
Obama 58%
McCain 37%

Who Would Better Handle Iraq?
Obama 52%
McCain 47%

www.huffingtonpost.com...

And while some of you may take me to task for citing the Huffington Post... you can go to CNN and CBS etc. and get the same data.

I cannot believe how far outdated McCain is... I mean I could swear from the tone of manner he was speaking in his coming straight from the height of the cold war... Look at what he says when he argues his foreign policy points.... "reclaim of old soviet land" "Russia" "KGB" "nuclear" "arms race".... I mean seriously I know there are foreign issues but his treating this as if we're back in time...

You have to treat 21st century issues with 21st century solutions. This "tough" talk coming from the Bush administration and the double talk express aint done this country any good.

Now as for my opinion on who won the debate, I'd say it was a tie... Reason being that both had good points and this is mccains biggest point.. though Obama held up his side and McCain could not really get his point through that well enough to have momentum. In a way McCain looses out because he just came out from a rough week and this foreign affairs debate was to be a game changer, and he didnt really pull it off, they just cancelled eachother out.

I can tell you one thing im excited about..... the VP debate come thursday

[edit on 27-9-2008 by southern_Guardian]

An interesting analysis was done by time.com. They broke it down by Substance, Style, Offense, Defense and gave an Overall rating on both candidates.

Grading the first Presidential Debate

Originally posted by walkinghomer
Grading the first Presidential Debate

That was excellent! I agree with most points. It's nice to see it broken down that way because as I said before, we all have different "scoring" points.

In a hockey game, it's easy to know when someone scores. The puck HAS to go into the net. They don't get points for going fast, skating with finesse, knowledge of the game, getting angry or knocking their opposition down.

The debate is a much different "game".