"The Porn Myth" , page 5

reply to post by jimmyx

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Ok. That was a nice fictionalization of evolutionary theory.

Guys did not go around sneaking up on and mounting and ejaculating into women. That sounds like some justification for raping women. While we do not know for sure, it is much more likely (evidence bears out) that SOME men, (the powerful, the handsome, the dominant) got tons of sex voluntarily, or as close to it as one can imagine in those times) while SOME men, the less genetically desirable got none or only what they could trick or force. If rape has an evolutionary justification, (and it is believed to) it is a marginal one, for the marginalized males who were unable to draw or win willing females. This was not unchallenged by the legitimate recipients of female favors, and dominant males as well as women actively sought to prevent this.

You see this play out in our closest primate cousins. The idea that the males had no interest in making certain that females were protected from these "mount and ejaculate" types is ludicrous. Even the chimpanzees do not practice this. Males have a vested interest in their offspring as well. It may be a more general one, protect and defend the mother and child, rather than a detailed day to day groom, feed, supervise role, but they had/have an interest in their offsprings survival. And in many primate societies they play a pretty engaged role, grooming, babysitting, etc.

Monogamy is, (as well as polygamy to some degree,) quite frankly more beneficial to males than it is to females. Particularly the way it was originally devised, with the female having little or no choice but to comply and marry whomever was assigned to her. It served to placate the males who would not be chosen by the females willingly, and keep them from mounting challenges to the dominant males as regularly. (As they do in primate groups who have not yet devised such a strategy) Or, as power sharing arrangements and alliance building agreements between dominant males. In many societies, the dominant males kept the option of sleeping with these females assigned to the less desirable males, and so kept the option of spreading their DNA widely throughout the group. Jus Primae Noctis.

www.petalk.com...

Why do I say it is more beneficial to males? It serves to placate the troublemakers to some degree. It isnt perfect, but imagine for a moment groups of males not allowed to have the company of women at all wandering in packs the way they often do in social primate groups, always watching for their chance to seize power. Or hump one another. (Prison, anyone?) It thus protects the position of the currently dominant at the same time the lower ranking males benefit from the access to females. The females at the top end still tend not to gain monogamy, even if there is only one legal wife, the most dominant males still tend to philander, but historically it could be fatal for her to do so as well. The lower end of the female spectrum is stuck day to day with a less than desirable partner, and his offspring, and historically still subject to the whim of the dominant males.

Certainly, things have changed a bit since that time, in some places. In some places, they havent changed much at all.

I like the introduction of evolutionary theory into a discussion about male and female relationships, but I sure hate to see one just randomly constructed with little or no research into the topic, created from some misunderstanding of male and female roles. It is a little more complicated in fact than the 1970's-1980's version of evolutionary theory where women were portrayed as being protected by and randomly used sexually by noble manly hunters wielding spears.

Polygamy could be a better option for females IF they were allowed to choose the male, at least they would get the good genes, but often they are not allowed to choose. And, it does nothing to resolve the "extra male" problem. Which leads to war or internal conflict. Some Mormon polygamist sects deal with this by "ousting" the extra males. It works much less well if large groups of people attempt this strategy.

Porn itself is problematic because it does tend to give men unrealistic ideals about what they can expect to find in a woman. As does the fantasy that foreign women are more willing to be submissive little slaves than American women are. See how that plays out in practice. I know a few guys who have tried that only to find that their angelic little fantasy woman turned into a normal woman with wants and needs after she escaped extreme economic conditions. Surprisingly, it is the economic necessity that forces someone to feel that have to please someone in order to survive. American women are not "pricing themselves out of the market" as someone theorized, they are less desperate economically, and less willing to accept substandard conditions and treatment. They can afford to be more choosy, at least in their most "desirable" mating years. The tide tends to turn as they get older, whereas for males those not genetically gifted in their youth can have the tide turn in their favor as they gain economic stability and resources (power) as they age.

Of course, along that line, romance novels, movies, etc. tend to give women unrealistic expectations as well. Some of the unrealistic body image issues women have are self imposed. Haute Couture and the super skinny fashion models? Dont blame the straight guys, women. The women in porn tend to be much more "realistic" versions of femininity than the fashion industry standards. Not surprising since the drivers of the fashion industry tend to be males that do not tend to prefer females sexually. It should be no mystery that fashion models tend to look like pretty adolescent males, all skinny and flat chested.

Just to throw a little fuel on your porn burning party...

US rebate cheques spent on porn
www.itnews.com.au...

reply to post by Tapped In

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Well they were "stimulous" checks ...

Illusionsaregrander: Loved your entire post. Especially the last two paragraphs - I totally agree.

[edit on 5/8/2008 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by kosmicjack

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Thank you, kosmicjack, for starting such an important and interesting thread . Yes, there are a lot of porn suupporters around. I don't think that enhancing a relationship with erotic material is a bad thing in any way; my problem is with the content of that material. The women (and men) depicted in nonfetish porn are just so bloody fake that no one without access to thousands of dollars of hair and makeup, a personal trainer, and creative editing could ever live up to that sort of image. The sort of subconscious pigeonholing of what is attractive that results from porn has a negative effect on relationships.

What's more, violent and degrading pornography (which have been conspicuously absent from this debate) cannot be anything but bad for viewers. Ok, a positive aspect of porn is that the characters enjoy sex. But no one can tell me a woman enjoys being choked out or threatened with a weapon during sex, or being forced to do unspeakable things to a toilet. This is just rape fantasy bullsh-t propogated by businessmen and consumed by ignorant fools.

reply to post by Sonya610

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what if i put implants to fake muscles or something like that, would u like that? no im guessing.

reply to post by sc2099

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I usually don't make a big deal out of starring people but... a star for you. I missed that post by Pieman (a member whose posts I usually love) but well said on your end because he was simply wrong on that part.

Generally there are a lot more sexually unsatisfied women out there than there are men. Another member once said on ATS that women seem to be 'trained' to give good sex but to not receive it or if they walk away without an orgasm or never even have one at all (which is more common than most realize), it isn't that unusual. Excellent point you made there. They need to clean up their own backyard, so to speak, before pointing out the flaws of the female sex style as being inadequate.

reply to post by Sonya610

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I'm proud you could admit that although you might think it is silly of me to say so. I typically keep this to myself and only two ATS members on here know about it so far (and I might regret announcing it here) but I also have implants. It always amazes me about the misconceptions some people have about breast implants or that they are all 'gross' or 'hard.' The circumstances I mentioned on a previous post in this thread make a lot of difference between soft, natural looking, and flexible versus hard, plastic-looking, and frozen. It's one thing to have a personal preference (that we are all entitled to, of course) but to generalize all women with implants as having low self esteem or to claim all boob jobs are fake and gross always makes me laugh. Like you, most people are in shock to find out I have them and my own husband thought I was kidding when he first saw them and I told them they were implants. It's a frustrating myth. lol

Side note: I totally blame Phoenix for bringing up the boob job topic originally in this thread.

reply to post by _Phoenix_

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when the teacher inquired, i mentioned that i was circumcised, the whole classroom went silent and looked at me as though i was an alien or something. then they kept asking me all kinds of questions, i thought i was a freak.

reply to post by AshleyD

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You know, I'm not even lying now, I already had the feeling that both you and Sonya had implants.

Don't ask me how, I just kinda felt it.

Edit: oh yeah one of the best breast implants I've seen is Veronica zemanova one mmmmm. She already had big ones, but I heard she didn't eat a lot and got really skinny, and lost fat in that area, so she got implants.




[edit on 5-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by AshleyD

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may i ask why u got them in the first place, it seems ur husband had no part in this decision, am i right?

reply to post by sc2099

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Great Post!

While I'm not silly enough to think that my husband thinks I'm the most gorgeous woman around, I think we have to be very careful the images we put into our mind. It's a fact, men are stimulated visually. Sure, my husband probably sees gorgeous woman passing by him all the time, and he's more than welcomed to think they are gorgeous and move on. But filling the mind with the images of pornography won't lead you to a better feeling of love and respect for your spouse. What you feed into your mind will become your thoughts and actions, it could lead you to comparing the porn with the sex you have at home. And from a woman's view, I can tell you that I know there are times that I am way better in bed than other times.

As women, we have to wear so many hats and maybe not all women are like me but sometimes my mind is just way to involved in everything else that I need to be doing, or whatever else is going on that I might not be that 'freak in the bed' my husband would like.

Don't get me wrong, I think that it is extremely important for woman to realize the sexual needs of their husbands or he will start turning to other outlets, maybe porn. I also feel that men need to realize that there is not a woman out there who doesn't, on occassion, deal with body issues. We live in a society where looks become a value and, some more than others, woman are constantly feeling the pressure to 'measure up' ... and porn is nothing uplifting to a woman.

And to all the comments about boob jobs. From my size D boobs perspective, big boobs are overated! I would love to have mine reduced, however my husband would cry for weeks, though I don't get it. I can't put on a cute sundress in this 107 degree heat without looking like a hooker, which is not the example I want to set for my daughter, nor do I think my teenage son would appreciate the hooker look on his mom. I'd be totally content with smaller boobs. But I think proportion has to do alot with the body appearance and I've seen some women that were very small on top and very big in the hips that might look more proportionate if they were to get a boob job, however no woman should ever feel like she HAD to have some form of plastic surgery in order to be beautiful, or happy.

A few years after I was done having children I had liposuction. Not as a way to have a hot bod or anything, but because the pregnancies had left me with an odd shape. It was something I did for myself and not for anyone else. It wasn't to make me feel happier or prettier because I fully believe that pretty comes in all shapes.

And in response to sir_chancealot's view that 'western woman' demand men to jump through ridiculous hoops: American woman have not 'priced themselves out of the market', but rather we are starting to realize our value and that there is no reason we shouldn't expect (or demand) that we be treated with the quality that we are valued at but for so many years didn't realize how valuable we were.



[edit on 5-8-2008 by MsFab]

reply to post by AshleyD

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Thank ya, Ash. I usually like what pieman has to say too but that comment couldn't be overlooked, LOL.

And btw, your rant on Jessica Alba's pic was spot on. Good catch.

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