"The Porn Myth"

reply to post by jimmyx


Ok. That was a nice fictionalization of evolutionary theory.

Guys did not go around sneaking up on and mounting and ejaculating into women. That sounds like some justification for raping women. While we do not know for sure, it is much more likely (evidence bears out) that SOME men, (the powerful, the handsome, the dominant) got tons of sex voluntarily, or as close to it as one can imagine in those times) while SOME men, the less genetically desirable got none or only what they could trick or force. If rape has an evolutionary justification, (and it is believed to) it is a marginal one, for the marginalized males who were unable to draw or win willing females. This was not unchallenged by the legitimate recipients of female favors, and dominant males as well as women actively sought to prevent this.

You see this play out in our closest primate cousins. The idea that the males had no interest in making certain that females were protected from these "mount and ejaculate" types is ludicrous. Even the chimpanzees do not practice this. Males have a vested interest in their offspring as well. It may be a more general one, protect and defend the mother and child, rather than a detailed day to day groom, feed, supervise role, but they had/have an interest in their offsprings survival. And in many primate societies they play a pretty engaged role, grooming, babysitting, etc.

Monogamy is, (as well as polygamy to some degree,) quite frankly more beneficial to males than it is to females. Particularly the way it was originally devised, with the female having little or no choice but to comply and marry whomever was assigned to her. It served to placate the males who would not be chosen by the females willingly, and keep them from mounting challenges to the dominant males as regularly. (As they do in primate groups who have not yet devised such a strategy) Or, as power sharing arrangements and alliance building agreements between dominant males. In many societies, the dominant males kept the option of sleeping with these females assigned to the less desirable males, and so kept the option of spreading their DNA widely throughout the group. Jus Primae Noctis.

www.petalk.com...

Why do I say it is more beneficial to males? It serves to placate the troublemakers to some degree. It isnt perfect, but imagine for a moment groups of males not allowed to have the company of women at all wandering in packs the way they often do in social primate groups, always watching for their chance to seize power. Or hump one another. (Prison, anyone?) It thus protects the position of the currently dominant at the same time the lower ranking males benefit from the access to females. The females at the top end still tend not to gain monogamy, even if there is only one legal wife, the most dominant males still tend to philander, but historically it could be fatal for her to do so as well. The lower end of the female spectrum is stuck day to day with a less than desirable partner, and his offspring, and historically still subject to the whim of the dominant males.

Certainly, things have changed a bit since that time, in some places. In some places, they havent changed much at all.

I like the introduction of evolutionary theory into a discussion about male and female relationships, but I sure hate to see one just randomly constructed with little or no research into the topic, created from some misunderstanding of male and female roles. It is a little more complicated in fact than the 1970's-1980's version of evolutionary theory where women were portrayed as being protected by and randomly used sexually by noble manly hunters wielding spears.

Polygamy could be a better option for females IF they were allowed to choose the male, at least they would get the good genes, but often they are not allowed to choose. And, it does nothing to resolve the "extra male" problem. Which leads to war or internal conflict. Some Mormon polygamist sects deal with this by "ousting" the extra males. It works much less well if large groups of people attempt this strategy.

Porn itself is problematic because it does tend to give men unrealistic ideals about what they can expect to find in a woman. As does the fantasy that foreign women are more willing to be submissive little slaves than American women are. See how that plays out in practice. I know a few guys who have tried that only to find that their angelic little fantasy woman turned into a normal woman with wants and needs after she escaped extreme economic conditions. Surprisingly, it is the economic necessity that forces someone to feel that have to please someone in order to survive. American women are not "pricing themselves out of the market" as someone theorized, they are less desperate economically, and less willing to accept substandard conditions and treatment. They can afford to be more choosy, at least in their most "desirable" mating years. The tide tends to turn as they get older, whereas for males those not genetically gifted in their youth can have the tide turn in their favor as they gain economic stability and resources (power) as they age.

Of course, along that line, romance novels, movies, etc. tend to give women unrealistic expectations as well. Some of the unrealistic body image issues women have are self imposed. Haute Couture and the super skinny fashion models? Dont blame the straight guys, women. The women in porn tend to be much more "realistic" versions of femininity than the fashion industry standards. Not surprising since the drivers of the fashion industry tend to be males that do not tend to prefer females sexually. It should be no mystery that fashion models tend to look like pretty adolescent males, all skinny and flat chested.

Just to throw a little fuel on your porn burning party...

US rebate cheques spent on porn
www.itnews.com.au...

this is not just about porn, it also has to be about the girls on the cover of fashion magazines, how they are photoshopped. i was surprised to see the effect of the photo altering. what i dont understand is why the companies do it and also why it has such an effect on young girls. maybe the companies should at least be required to inform the consumer, that the photos are not real.

whats really bizarre is that many girls want to be skinny to fit the latest fashion trends, but most designers of the clothes are gay and thus create more "manly fashion"; women will naturally have a hard time fitting into "mens clothes"(you get what im saying). the question is why do women seek to attain something they cant and maybe even start to be become bulemic, etc?

reply to post by Tapped In


Well they were "stimulous" checks ...

Illusionsaregrander: Loved your entire post. Especially the last two paragraphs - I totally agree.

[edit on 5/8/2008 by kosmicjack]

reply to post by kosmicjack


Thank you, kosmicjack, for starting such an important and interesting thread . Yes, there are a lot of porn suupporters around. I don't think that enhancing a relationship with erotic material is a bad thing in any way; my problem is with the content of that material. The women (and men) depicted in nonfetish porn are just so bloody fake that no one without access to thousands of dollars of hair and makeup, a personal trainer, and creative editing could ever live up to that sort of image. The sort of subconscious pigeonholing of what is attractive that results from porn has a negative effect on relationships.

What's more, violent and degrading pornography (which have been conspicuously absent from this debate) cannot be anything but bad for viewers. Ok, a positive aspect of porn is that the characters enjoy sex. But no one can tell me a woman enjoys being choked out or threatened with a weapon during sex, or being forced to do unspeakable things to a toilet. This is just rape fantasy bullsh-t propogated by businessmen and consumed by ignorant fools.

i dont know what the fuss is all about pornstars look hollow like mannequins. they are a turn off until they get down to business, but thats just it. everything in their body is about functionality and not beauty. same as super models; their bodies are tailored for that skinny circus cloth they design.

concerning fantasies, there is no point fantasizing about something that will never materialize but thats just me.

[edit on 5-8-2008 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by pieman
the first thing that occoured to me when i saw this thread is that the only real difference between women in porno and women in real life is that women in porn look like they're actually good in bed... quid pro quo is fine and dandy if the girls can keep up their end of the bargain, but the truth is, most of them can't.

they don't know how to use their hands or mouth and if they use anything else they're only ever interested in pleasing themselves. there's never a build up from their end because guys don't need it and if the guy suggests there should be he's ruining the flow of things.

in truth girls, the porn is an addition to whats really going on, your man is pleasing himself because your just not able.

believe me, there isn't a man alive who'ld choose a hand shandy over a woman who knew what she was doing.

Oh, and I had to respond to this. I would advise you, pieman, to take a good look in the mirror and give your own skillset a nice going over before pointing the finger at women. Many women have never even had an orgasm because their partners have been so lousy. No male can ever say that.

The idea that women are severly deficient in bedroom skills while men are all willing, knowledgable studs is ignorant and downright laughable.

I think women would gladly pay double what your hypothetical man would pay for an hour with a man who knows what he's doing and isn't just concerned with his own desires.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
I'm sorry I have to disagree, fake boobs are obvious to spot.
Of course with clothes on it's impossible to tell, but once they become naked.

I do not know how many girls with fake parts you have been with, but I have implants and I have been with quite a few men so I think I know a bit about how obvious it is in real life situations.

Very VERY few guys can tell. The ONLY guys that have ever noticed have been guys that slept with lots of women and had encountered implants before, they do feel different (not hard but different).

I will often have to bring it up because due to the risk of rupture (I do not like squeezing or lots of weight) and if I say something the response has always been “Oh, really? Wow, I had no clue”. And they seriously had no clue.

But hey if some men find the idea repulsive, that is their right. I personally am not all that fond of uncircumcised penis, however I would not rule out a guy because of that. Guess some of us are just a bit less shallow.

reply to post by Sonya610


what if i put implants to fake muscles or something like that, would u like that? no im guessing.

boobs= good....fake boobs= good....porn sex=good....normal sex= good..... Cant we all just get along? pornstars are people too!

Originally posted by DuneKnight
what if i put implants to fake muscles or something like that, would u like that? no im guessing.

Actually some males DO get fake pecs. Usually they work out but if they can’t develop that part of their anatomy some (like models) will have them implanted. I would not have a problem with it. If it makes them happy, and it looks good, then fine.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Guys did not go around sneaking up on and mounting and ejaculating into women. While we do not know for sure, it is much more likely (evidence bears out) that SOME men, (the powerful, the handsome, the dominant) got tons of sex voluntarily, or as close to it as one can imagine in those times) while SOME men, the less genetically desirable got none or only what they could trick or force.

Absolutely. In the caveman days the alpha males would have a harem of females, and they would probably threaten to kill any weaker males that attempted to breed with them. Its all about genes.

Though this reminds me of something funny. A LOT (possibly MOST) caveman art was actually of nude women. Of course the science books and tv shows don’t advertise that fact, but in reality much of the art was drawn by what they assume to be adolescent males it it features females with exaggerated sexual characteristics.

Originally posted by Sonya610

But hey if some men find the idea repulsive, that is their right. I personally am not all that fond of uncircumcised penis, however I would not rule out a guy because of that. Guess some of us are just a bit less shallow.

I sure hope you don't think I'm shallow?? What did you mean by that?

About spotting fake breasts, like I said "I myself" can spot even the best ones, I guess it's a skill

I already said It would not stop me from being with a woman, and that I have seen fake breasts that do look good, usually they already had pretty big ones to begin with. I'm simply not a fan of them. And your not a fan of uncircumcised penises lol.

By the way I'm circumcised .........

Wait! that was not a pick up line!


[edit on 5-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]

from my understanding i think men and women admire pornstars because they get to do what they cant or afraid to do. recently in an interview with kevin smith, he said traci lords is an icon, now i didnt think she was but many do. i dont get it, she was a child pornstar yet she is admired for her will and courage.

Originally posted by Lethil
boobs= good....fake boobs= good....porn sex=good....normal sex= good.....

Cant we all just get along? pornstars are people too!

Haha I like your way of thinking.

reply to post by sc2099


I usually don't make a big deal out of starring people but... a star for you. I missed that post by Pieman (a member whose posts I usually love) but well said on your end because he was simply wrong on that part.

Generally there are a lot more sexually unsatisfied women out there than there are men. Another member once said on ATS that women seem to be 'trained' to give good sex but to not receive it or if they walk away without an orgasm or never even have one at all (which is more common than most realize), it isn't that unusual. Excellent point you made there. They need to clean up their own backyard, so to speak, before pointing out the flaws of the female sex style as being inadequate.

reply to post by Sonya610


I'm proud you could admit that although you might think it is silly of me to say so. I typically keep this to myself and only two ATS members on here know about it so far (and I might regret announcing it here) but I also have implants. It always amazes me about the misconceptions some people have about breast implants or that they are all 'gross' or 'hard.' The circumstances I mentioned on a previous post in this thread make a lot of difference between soft, natural looking, and flexible versus hard, plastic-looking, and frozen. It's one thing to have a personal preference (that we are all entitled to, of course) but to generalize all women with implants as having low self esteem or to claim all boob jobs are fake and gross always makes me laugh. Like you, most people are in shock to find out I have them and my own husband thought I was kidding when he first saw them and I told them they were implants. It's a frustrating myth. lol

Side note: I totally blame Phoenix for bringing up the boob job topic originally in this thread.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


when the teacher inquired, i mentioned that i was circumcised, the whole classroom went silent and looked at me as though i was an alien or something. then they kept asking me all kinds of questions, i thought i was a freak.

reply to post by AshleyD


You know, I'm not even lying now, I already had the feeling that both you and Sonya had implants.

Don't ask me how, I just kinda felt it.

Edit: oh yeah one of the best breast implants I've seen is Veronica zemanova one mmmmm. She already had big ones, but I heard she didn't eat a lot and got really skinny, and lost fat in that area, so she got implants.




[edit on 5-8-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by AshleyD


may i ask why u got them in the first place, it seems ur husband had no part in this decision, am i right?

reply to post by sc2099


Great Post!

While I'm not silly enough to think that my husband thinks I'm the most gorgeous woman around, I think we have to be very careful the images we put into our mind. It's a fact, men are stimulated visually. Sure, my husband probably sees gorgeous woman passing by him all the time, and he's more than welcomed to think they are gorgeous and move on. But filling the mind with the images of pornography won't lead you to a better feeling of love and respect for your spouse. What you feed into your mind will become your thoughts and actions, it could lead you to comparing the porn with the sex you have at home. And from a woman's view, I can tell you that I know there are times that I am way better in bed than other times.

As women, we have to wear so many hats and maybe not all women are like me but sometimes my mind is just way to involved in everything else that I need to be doing, or whatever else is going on that I might not be that 'freak in the bed' my husband would like.

Don't get me wrong, I think that it is extremely important for woman to realize the sexual needs of their husbands or he will start turning to other outlets, maybe porn. I also feel that men need to realize that there is not a woman out there who doesn't, on occassion, deal with body issues. We live in a society where looks become a value and, some more than others, woman are constantly feeling the pressure to 'measure up' ... and porn is nothing uplifting to a woman.

And to all the comments about boob jobs. From my size D boobs perspective, big boobs are overated! I would love to have mine reduced, however my husband would cry for weeks, though I don't get it. I can't put on a cute sundress in this 107 degree heat without looking like a hooker, which is not the example I want to set for my daughter, nor do I think my teenage son would appreciate the hooker look on his mom. I'd be totally content with smaller boobs. But I think proportion has to do alot with the body appearance and I've seen some women that were very small on top and very big in the hips that might look more proportionate if they were to get a boob job, however no woman should ever feel like she HAD to have some form of plastic surgery in order to be beautiful, or happy.

A few years after I was done having children I had liposuction. Not as a way to have a hot bod or anything, but because the pregnancies had left me with an odd shape. It was something I did for myself and not for anyone else. It wasn't to make me feel happier or prettier because I fully believe that pretty comes in all shapes.

And in response to sir_chancealot's view that 'western woman' demand men to jump through ridiculous hoops: American woman have not 'priced themselves out of the market', but rather we are starting to realize our value and that there is no reason we shouldn't expect (or demand) that we be treated with the quality that we are valued at but for so many years didn't realize how valuable we were.



[edit on 5-8-2008 by MsFab]

reply to post by AshleyD


Thank ya, Ash. I usually like what pieman has to say too but that comment couldn't be overlooked, LOL.

And btw, your rant on Jessica Alba's pic was spot on. Good catch.