Is Yashua(Jesus) God ?????, page 5
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reply posted on 9-7-2008 @ 11:04 AM by jmdewey60
reply to post by GJIML


Now let me see.....Would God really love u, if he Gave A Man(Jesus), and let him die for u???? Or will he really love u If He(God) died for u???

Jesus said something to the affect of: If a grain of wheat does not fall to the ground and die, a new plant can not grow up from it.
Jesus thought of it as an unpleasant, but necessary thing that he had to do in order to bring about the new creation, the church.
Jesus had to go to that place where we all have to go, and to overcome it.
He came to life, after his crucifixion, a different man.
He went to heaven soon after, to receive new assurances, directly from his father.
He returned to verify his successful transformation, with his followers.
Jesus went to where he is, to this day, and was completely glorified, in order to carry out the remainder of his work.

You can do a google search, using the two words, God and dying, and come up with lists of Pagan gods who has done all those things that you seem to think are required for our salvation.
Take your pick of what pagan god you want to believe in.
We do not need a dying God.
That would be unremarkable.(in a global sense and comparatively)
What we need is a man to go before us to receive all those things that he has promised that we will get.
He is Noah, the one righteous man, and we are the seven others on Noah's ark, getting a ride because we are family.
Jesus has to be 100% man and we cling to him as our representative for mankind and our substitute for the punishment for the sins of mankind.


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 07:11 AM by Iggus
reply to post by jmdewey60


I am intrigued by your post in that you seem to me to suggest that Jesus was only and fully a man. If this is so, do you think that he had a pre-incarnate existence and if so in what form?

If Jesus as an ordinary man was able to keep the law perfectly then why shouldn't we be able to get into heaven by being perfect also? Why should he die for my failings when really I am able to be perfect?

Again if he was just a man then why does Paul write to the Romans and say that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23) and in v10-18 he shows how all men are imperfect and failures. Why doesn't this refer to Jesus.

Why didn't the curse of the sin of Adam pass into Jesus as it has for all other people? How was Jesus able to be righteous and perfect all the days of his life? Please don't try and compare him with any other character in the Bible described as righteous or perfect because if these people are righteous and perfect in the same way as Jesus was then why should he die for them and if not for them then why for anyone, especially as people described as righteous often have their failures shown as well.

If Jesus is just a man then by power and authority did he do his works and when did he recieve the power and authority?

Finally, if Jesus is just a man then who was his father? Being born of a virgin would suggest something other than just being a man.

I really would like to hear your view, especially about Jesus pre-incarnate existence. Thanks


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 09:21 AM by miriam0566
i know that you directed this towards jmdeway, but i decided to have a go since this isnt in pm. (hope you guys dont mind)

Originally posted by Iggus
I am intrigued by your post in that you seem to me to suggest that Jesus was only and fully a man. If this is so, do you think that he had a pre-incarnate existence and if so in what form?


first is whether he had a pre-human existence, and the answer is yes, jesus himself mentions it a few times.

john 8:58 (which im sure your familiar with), 3:13, 6:38 (which also mentions god sending him)

john 1:1 says that jesus was with god in the beginning.

jesus was the firstborn of all things created, created by god directly - col 1:15, rev 3:14

god used jesus to create all other things (this would include the angels) - col 1:16,17

jesus being firstborn and master-builder is also heir - heb 1:2

jesus is "begotten" - john 3:16 (amongst other scriptures), since angels are also called "sons" ( job 1:6), this special title is given to jesus because he is the only son directly created by god.

if Jesus is just a man then who was his father? Being born of a virgin would suggest something other than just being a man.


mary's impregnation was by holy spirit - mat 1:18

holy spirit overpowered her which allowed jesus to be holy - luke 1:34-35

put simply, god transfer jesus' being into mary's womb. it was not a new creation, but was made human.

GOD prepared jesus' human form - heb 10:5

Why didn't the curse of the sin of Adam pass into Jesus as it has for all other people?


alot has to do with the nature of his birth. it was not a normal conception.

Again if he was just a man then why does Paul write to the Romans and say that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23) and in v10-18 he shows how all men are imperfect and failures. Why doesn't this refer to Jesus.


holy spirit protected him during mary's pregnancy - luke 1:35

through there isnt much information about this, we do know that jesus' conception was anything but normal

If Jesus as an ordinary man was able to keep the law perfectly then why shouldn't we be able to get into heaven by being perfect also? Why should he die for my failings when really I am able to be perfect?


for all intensive purposes death is a consequence and is not "normal" for humans - gen 2:16-17, rom 5:12, 6:23

that having been said, jesus would not have earned his way to heaven, he would have lived forever

adam was perfect but sinned, and death through sin, jesus died so as to pay that sin so we dont have to - rom 5:12-19

we cannot supply our own ransom - ps 49:6-9

we cannot control our sin - rom 7:14-25

ransom must be equal, isreal's animal sacrifices were a preview to jesus' ultimate sacrifice - heb 10:1-4

jesus died to pay the ransom for adam's sins - heb 9:13-14

If Jesus is just a man then by power and authority did he do his works and when did he recieve the power and authority?


jesus did miraculous things not by his own power, but GOD's - luke 5:17, it should also be noted that after jesus died, the apostles also healing and resurrected, they arent gods, instead they did this by holy spirit.

jesus received holy spirit immediately after his baptism - luke 3:21-23


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 10:21 AM by jmdewey60
reply to post by Iggus


Pre-existence of Jesus
do you think that he had a pre-incarnate existence and if so in what form?

This is a touchy subject and I do not expect anyone to agree with me, because, for one thing I do not find myself in a single-minded condition, about this.
Writing in this forum forces me to bring a lot of nebulous and fuzzy thought into something clear enough to be put into words.
This process has actually caused an evolution in what I believe and I do not think I am done yet.
I have gone to different blogs to find alternative commentary on verses that are normally used to support the notion of the trinity.
What I found out is that anyone who shares my position, on the trinity, also rule out the pre-incarnation existence of Jesus.
So, I had to deal with this, too and I am not all the way there, yet.
When it comes to God, thinking of something makes it real and saying it makes it into a materially existing thing.
For example, at creation, God had a thought in his mind to make a universe, as in a plan of what it would be.
So, in a way, because God harbored this plan, inside Him, there was a universe that existed, but not in a way that we can understand.
When the time was right and God decided it was to be Day 1, He spoke and that Universe that dwelt inside him came into material existence.
I mentioned in other posts on this forum that God was smart enough to know that, because of how he created the universe to operate in a not fully predictable manner (and with free will), things could go terribly wrong.
God had a plan B, which was the Plan of Salvation.
So, in turn, just as the universe had existed in plan form, Jesus existed, as the center of this other Plan, in a way that we cannot understand.
all men are imperfect and failures. Why doesn't this refer to Jesus.

I will go along with Miriam’s answer to this (directly above this post)




[edit on 10-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



reply posted on 11-7-2008 @ 02:27 AM by Myrtales Instinct
reply to post by miriam0566


Regarding bible doctrine you said: "its much more than that, it is a basic understanding of the nature of god and his purpose. saying god works in mysterious ways is not good enough. his purpose is shown clearly in his word the bible."

God does work in mysterious ways and it is so good enough. Christ explains these mysteries in detail to those that can see and hear. They are right there in front of your eyes. He left nothing out. This is the very reason he spoke in parables:

Psalm 78:2 "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter hidden things, things from of old - "

Isaiah 6:8 "He said, 'Go and tell this people: Be ever hearing but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'"

Matthew 13:35 "So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: 'I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.'"

Hidden things ARE the mysterious ways of the Lord and it's been done deliberately for many reasons, but mostly so that each and every one of us find that which is most precious - the undeniable truth, which comes through Jesus Christ.

Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit you said : "so with the revelation of jesus given to john, the bible was made complete. with that, all miracles and gifts of the holy spirit were no longer needed since the will of god is perfectly reveal through scripture."

I don't agree. This line of thought is what is known as cessationism. I'm sure there are many people, even on this board, who could give testimony that the gifts are still around.

You said: "ever read jesus' parable about the wheat field?"

I have. And when he finished explaining it - it's one of the rare times, he reminds people with ears to really listen.

You said: "you are right on alot of things. but to get baptized is to dedicate yourself, doesnt it make sense to get to know who you are dedicating yourself to?"

Yes. I firmly believe that fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and we have to read and study to understand why things have been done, the way they have been done. But if an asteroid was to hit within the next couple hours would I urge people to repent and read their bible or repent with all their hearts and try to get baptized? Baptism is critical. It's one of the first things Christ did. Then he preached the good news!

I still stand by my original answer, that it really doesn't matter..... because God is Spirit and this Spirit is in Jesus. And if a person is sanctified, this same exact spirit dwells in them and then and only then can a person possibly understand the meaning of being one.


reply posted on 11-7-2008 @ 05:46 AM by miriam0566
Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Hidden things ARE the mysterious ways of the Lord and it's been done deliberately for many reasons, but mostly so that each and every one of us find that which is most precious - the undeniable truth, which comes through Jesus Christ.


and yet those parables have a very clear message with a very clear meaning. jesus REVEALED those hidden things by providing an example of god for us.

revealing would mean that they arent mysteries anymore.

i mentioned the parable of the wheat field to show that there was an apostasy.


[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


the weeds (or tares) are sown by the devil within the wheat (within the congregation). it made it impossible to tell an honest hearted follower of jesus from a wicked apostate. this would go on until the harvest time. why?

wheat and weeds look exactly the same until harvest time. when the wheat is ready to harvest, the part at the top grows with all the seeds (like the picture on my cereal box), for the weeds, it doesnt, it remains like a long stalk.

look at the history of the church (and many denominations)

jesus sowed the field. while the master was away (jesus died, was resurrected and returned to heaven, we await his "return" so we can say he's "away" since his ascension) satan came and sowed his own seeds. 2-4th century we see this explosion of pagan practices enter the church. sometimes its gradual and sometimes its quick, (for example sightings of "jesus" go from seeing him as a man (paul for example) to jesus being seen as a child (which ironically imitates babylonian worship of nimrod (see two babylons by hislop))

we see introduction of the trinity, hellfire, veneration of the cross, praying to saints, virgin worship, immortality of the soul. all of which are not supported by the bible and all of which has origins in babylon.

the harvest time is here, we all can see that, just read matt 24:3-8

so what will determine the wheat from the weeds?

john 17:[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

so followers will know the true god (as he revealed himself and his purposes through the bible which means studying)

so what happens if something we believe in conflicts with the bible? the trinity is an example, its a pagan doctrine! what should a follower of christ do? does it matter? wont god embrace us all?

worth quoting
2 cor 6:[14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.[17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,


I don't agree. This line of thought is what is known as cessationism. I'm sure there are many people, even on this board, who could give testimony that the gifts are still around.


mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

so you have a scripture that supports "cessationism" and you have a scripture talking about false signs and miracles but you still prefer to believe they are from god?

2 thes 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


I still stand by my original answer, that it really doesn't matter..... because God is Spirit and this Spirit is in Jesus. And if a person is sanctified, this same exact spirit dwells in them and then and only then can a person possibly understand the meaning of being one.


i agree, but because you put the clause "if a person is sanctified". how does one get sanctified? do they just say "i believe in christ" and poof they are sanctified? no, the bible say they must worship god in spirit and in truth. that means true worship...

all roads may lead to rome, but not all roads lead to god, even jesus said that.































reply posted on 11-7-2008 @ 11:26 PM by Myrtales Instinct
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Miriam said: "and yet those parables have a very clear message with a very clear meaning. jesus REVEALED those hidden things by providing an example of god for us.

revealing would mean that they arent mysteries anymore.

so what will determine the wheat from the weeds?"

Okay. It does give an example of how Jesus sends sends his angels and they will gather the tares first, then the wheat is gathered into the barn. Part of the mystery, miriam, is how the angels discern the wheat from the tares. The wheat produces fruit, the tares don't. The mystery is in the fruit.


Miriam said: "so followers will know the true god (as he revealed himself and his purposes through the bible which means studying)"

An a day will come when many who thought they really knew the Lord, will be in for a rude awakening and he will tell them plainly, "I never knew you." He also says "few" find the kingdom. Why do you think this will be so?

Miriam said: "so what happens if something we believe in conflicts with the bible? the trinity is an example, its a pagan doctrine! what should a follower of christ do? does it matter? wont god embrace us all?"

I guess if you see conflicts, that's what you see. If there is something I don't understand, personally, I meditate on it (not with my eyes closed) and that usually brings clarity. There are certain things Jesus said he would do and one of those things was to have another Councelor sent that would comfort us, so we don't feel like orphans. This very Spirit - the Spirit of Truth is given to teach and remind us of everything he taught.

Miriam said: "so you have a scripture that supports "cessationism" and you have a scripture talking about false signs and miracles but you still prefer to believe they are from god?"

Scripture absolutely does not support cessationism. God is not the Father of the dead. Wheather one believes in the trinity, or the three of them as being completely seperate becomes a quick non-issue when the Spirit makes himself known to you. That is not only a benefit for people two thousand years ago, but it's still happening today. It's easy for you to say gifts are no longer around, but it's easier for me to say HE IS ALIVE.

From John 14 (NIV)

"he will give you another Councelor to be with you forever"

"the world can't accept him, because it neither see him nor knows him"

"But you know him, for he lives with you and WILL BE IN YOU"

"I will not leave you as orphans, I WILL COME TO YOU"

"Because I live, YOU ALSO WILL LIVE"

"ON THAT DAY YOU WILL REALIZE THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND YOU ARE IN ME, AND I AM IN YOU"

"He who loves me will be loved by my Father and I too will love him"

and the kicker...... "AND SHOW MYSELF TO HIM."

King James Version John 14:21 "AND MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM."

KJV John 14:22&23 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

NIV John 14:22&23 "Then Judas (not Iscariot) said, 'But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?' Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.'"

That is the mystery unveiled. A real & tangible presence.

Miriam said: "i agree, but because you put the clause "if a person is sanctified". how does one get sanctified? do they just say "i believe in christ" and poof they are sanctified? no, the bible say they must worship god in spirit and in truth. that means true worship..."

The Spirit sanctifies, it cleanses the inside of you.

There are three baptisms that are mentioned in the NT. They are:

1.Water
2.Spirit
3.Fire

The first, water baptism is something a person elects to do. The second, spirit baptism is something he elects to do. The third, fire baptism is a baptism none will escape. It is unto death and only two people were spared; Enoch & Elijah.

The way = water
The truth = spirit
The life = fire

By the way, I hope you are feeling better.








[edit on 11-7-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]


reply posted on 12-7-2008 @ 06:00 PM by miriam0566
Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Okay. It does give an example of how Jesus sends sends his angels and they will gather the tares first, then the wheat is gathered into the barn. Part of the mystery, miriam, is how the angels discern the wheat from the tares. The wheat produces fruit, the tares don't. The mystery is in the fruit.


your right, but its not a mystery

matt 7: [16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

gal 5:[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

people you have holy spirit exhibit these qualities.

An a day will come when many who thought they really knew the Lord, will be in for a rude awakening and he will tell them plainly, "I never knew you." He also says "few" find the kingdom. Why do you think this will be so?


for the same reason adam died. because they did what they wanted instead of what god wanted. this goes on with religion as well.

remember, the pharisees knew jesus was the messiah, they knew what the scriptures said, and for all intensive purposes they were expecting the messiah at that time. but jesus wasn't what they were expecting. jesus wasnt there to remove roman oppression or to claim kingship at that time. even the miracles were not enough for them.

so they believed what they wanted to believe.

there is a variety of reasons people claim to follow but dont actually follow god's word.

- they dont fully understand it, so when they see a supposed contradiction, they make excuses like "well the bible was written by men" so they only believe parts
- sometimes the bible's morality conflicts with their own. leading to the "some parts i like and some parts i dont like" mentality
- sometimes the bible contradicts with doctrine people were taught since childhood.
- sometimes following the bible means living a lifestyle you dont personally like (abstaining from sex outside of marriage is difficult)
- sometimes (and i see this on ats alot) the bible is not exciting enough. belief in a god who loves you and clearly states his will, is boring, numerology and mysterious double meanings along with confusing doctrines are much more exciting. (for an example of this, look up any thread on god's name)

I guess if you see conflicts, that's what you see. If there is something I don't understand, personally, I meditate on it (not with my eyes closed) and that usually brings clarity. There are certain things Jesus said he would do and one of those things was to have another Councelor sent that would comfort us, so we don't feel like orphans. This very Spirit - the Spirit of Truth is given to teach and remind us of everything he taught.


true, i agree

but there is still more to it than that. the scriptures must be studied, checked. the bible tells you everything there is to know.

matt 22:[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

acts 18:[28] For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

one cannot claim to know the will of god without proof. one cannot stand on a podium and say god is like this or that just "because"

if the bible is god's inspired word, then belief must be back up with scripture

Scripture absolutely does not support cessationism. God is not the Father of the dead. Wheather one believes in the trinity, or the three of them as being completely seperate becomes a quick non-issue when the Spirit makes himself known to you. That is not only a benefit for people two thousand years ago, but it's still happening today. It's easy for you to say gifts are no longer around, but it's easier for me to say HE IS ALIVE.

.....


you can still have holy spirit, but not be able to heal.

1 cor 12:[27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.[29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?[30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?


By the way, I hope you are feeling better.


i am alittle, thank you
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