Originally posted by miriam0566

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thats a very good point. but your getting certain things mixed up. the apostle was saying from the context that there is only one god we worship.

It looks to me like it says that we only worship the one God who exists. Notice that the same sentence says "we know that an idol is nothing in the world" saying that those other gods don't exist and there is only one God.

the reason i say that is because even GOD (Yahweh) himself calls jesus a "god", but he also calls humans "gods" in psalms. jesus even quotes that scripture in chapter 10 of john.

so we see that other things other than GOD (yahweh) are called "god". god is without a doubt a title. but how are we to read that title?

In John 10 Jesus says "if he calls them gods, ... what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" He seems to be saying that he is God, people aren't. Psalms says "but you will die like mere men", while Jesus was raised back to life.
I think Jesus was pointing out that he is that much more than just a man, that he is also God. There's a contrast between the people mentioned in Psalms and himself.

notice that GOD (yahweh) always directs worship to himself.
Jesus never told anyone to worship him
humans worship the gods they choose.

True, you make a good point. Maybe God the Father is supposed to be praised, not Jesus.

Originally posted by Alcove
In John 10 Jesus says "if he calls them gods, ... what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" He seems to be saying that he is God, people aren't. Psalms says "but you will die like mere men", while Jesus was raised back to life.
I think Jesus was pointing out that he is that much more than just a man, that he is also God. There's a contrast between the people mentioned in Psalms and himself.

its not a contrast, its a comparison

listen the grammer even you are saying, if god calls them gods, ... what about the one whom the father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

that sentence admit certain things

-god (yahweh) does call humans "gods" which does show that the word "god" is a title not a name.
-the father set apart as his very own, unique from the rest of creation but still distinct.
-father sent... again two people

if you look at verse 36, jesus specifically uses the title "son of god". this is all immediately after telling the jews him and the father are one.

being one is figurative meaning unity. even when genesis is quoted in matt 19:5,6 , mark 10:8, eph 5:31

all of them use the same expression. they are one.

so if jesus saying he is in unity with god means that he is also calling himself a god, then jesus is saying - why not? god also called men gods. if men can be called gods, then why is me being a god blashemy?

he's not saying they arent gods otherwise his arguements dont work.

btw the scripture from psalms is

82:[6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

True, you make a good point. Maybe God the Father is supposed to be praised, not Jesus.

possible. but i think that by acknowledging the order of things then you get a clearer picture....

1 cor 11:[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

so -
god then christ then man then woman.

eph 5:[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave _javascript:yvid()himself for it;

submission with love and respect.

if GOD on top, ofcourse we give him glory, praise and worship.

jesus deserve glory and praise too for the sacrifices he has made, but he doesnt deserve worship, and the glory and the praise should never supercede god's




[edit on 30-6-2008 by miriam0566]

Here is where people get confused, thus the unending debate, “Is Jesus God”? There are scriptures which says Jesus is God, while there are scriptures that says, that the Father is greater than Jesus, and Jesus is just a servant, and was sent, just a prophet, not greater than the Father. He can get hurt like any ordinary man, go hungry and thirsty like any ordinary man, can get tempted like any ordinary man, feels emotions like any ordinary man and can die like any ordinary man as He is fully flesh. No contradiction. Totally agree.

However, Jesus has a divine nature as well. He can heal like God, can turn water to wine like God, can multiply bread and fish like God, can raise up the dead like God. Can calm the storm like God. Can make the blind see, the lame walk, the dumb talk, like God. Say, “I and the Father are one.” For God dwells in Jesus’ body. As written:

Colossian 2:9 - For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

One has to keep up with the scriptures and it expects one to have already understood the nature of Jesus, the Word who became flesh. God who became flesh – two natures – Divine and Flesh. Having the nature of flesh, you will read verses such as these:

John 13:16 - Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.

John 14:28 - You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

No contradiction here. Having in the humbleness of flesh. Having to say that the Father is greater than Him and having to say that He is not greater than the Lord. All because He is in the flesh for the Word became flesh. He became in the form of a servant. How can a servant and a flesh be greater than God the Father who is in heaven? That’s why Jesus clearly said, “a servant is not greater than his master” and “the Father is greater than I” simply because Jesus was still in the flesh, the Word became flesh. Jesus was merely demonstrating His very nature of being “human” and a “servant” of the Lord to fulfill his purpose on Earth.

As written:

Philippians 2 - 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

As noted, emptied Himself of what? Emptied and stripped himself of the glory and power in which He had with the Father, of being the form of God, being the very nature and express representation of God and taking upon Himself in the form of a humble servant, in the form of weak flesh.

As written:

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Reading the scripture above, why did Jesus prayed this prayer? He prayed this prayer because He was going to be arrested and sentenced to death by crucifixion.

As written:

John 18 – 1 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it. 2 Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3 So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

12 Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him 13 and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year.

As clearly shown here, Jesus knew that he is going to die already and His ascension to heaven to be with the Father is near and that He prayed to the Father, “glorify me in your presence with the glory *I HAD* with you before the world began for He was in the beginning with God. Jesus was merely taking back all the power, glory, authority, in which He had with the Father after completing His mission on Earth, to save mankind.

As written:

John 1 - 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

On the other hand, having the very nature God , one will also read scriptures that Jesus is God, not a god, but God, the Almighty. God the Father calls His son “God”. Jesus says, “I AM”, God the Father says, “I AM”, as written:

Exodus 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

God says “I am”. Jesus says “I am”. The Father calls Jesus His God. The Son calls His Father His God. Jesus says, I and the Father are one. It’s so clear and definite. Clear as crystalline.

As written:

Psalms 45 - 6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Hebrews 1 - 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Scriptures from the OT and NT confirming each other that the Father calls His Son “God”. Clear as the blue sky.

Failing to comprehend Jesus’ two natures while in the flesh will compromise your understanding of the scriptures and it will become one sided and vague and will lead to the erroneous doctrine of “the word was a god”.

….continued

A) Jesus was equal with God

John 5:18 - For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus was equal with God. If Jesus was just a god, then this verse is false as Jesus has equal standing with God according to the verse.

You said:

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

john 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

maybe john 5:18 is simply stating what the jews thought he was saying... because jesus himself says something different.

Maybe? Unsure? Read my previous explanations.

B) Jesus is the very nature God

Philippians 2:6 - Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Philippians 2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (KJV)

Jesus is the very nature God. If Jesus was just a god, then how can he be the very nature God? Being in the very nature God is equal with God and Jesus did not consider it a robbery. If Jesus was a just a god, then this verse is false.

You said:

there is a HUGE difference between being in the FORM of someone and BEING someone. after jesus died we was resurrected and made immortal like god. all this scripture is affirming is that.

There is no difference according to context. You are focusing too much on a verse and stress too much on single words, while neglecting the relevant and parallel context of other verses to complete your understanding. If you are reading a newspaper, you don’t pick a sentence or a paragraph only and center your whole understanding based on these few structures. All you get is “patchy” information and incomplete comprehension of what the story is trying to convey. You have to read the WHOLE story so that you’ll get it. You have to connect everything.

That’s the magic of the Bible as it so integrated like a circuit that an avid Bible reader will spot errors quickly. One incorrect diode or resistor will quickly cripple the whole circuitry and it simply won’t work properly.

Jesus and the Father are One. Jesus became flesh to save mankind. After fulfilling His mission, saving those who believe in Him, He was up again in heaven to be God the Son, the Word, having the same glory He had with the Father, the very nature of God, for the Word was God.

Hebrews 1:3 - The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Jesus is the EXACT representation of his “being”. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. He sat at the Father’s side. As written:

John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

Who is the God the One and Only? Who sat at the Father’s side? Who sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven?

JESUS, GOD THE ONE AND ONLY. He went back again to sit on His throne after completing His mission and work on Earth to save mankind. All those who believe in Him will be saved.

Jesus sustains “ALL” things by his powerful word up to the very atoms of your body and to the very energy of the whole universe, the Sun, the stars, and the galaxies. For He is the creator of All things.

As written:

John 1 - 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Through Jesus, through the Word, all things were made. Without Him, nothing will exist. Jesus is the Creator of heaven and earth. Having established this fact about Jesus, what does the scriptures tells us about Him?

It is written:

Isaiah 44:24 - "I am the Lord, your savior; I am the one who created you. I am the Lord, the Creator of all things. I alone stretched out the heavens; when I made the earth, no one helped me.”

Who is the savior? Jesus. Who is the creator? Jesus. Who created the heavens and earth? Jesus.

Deuteronomy 32:6 - Is this the way you should treat the Lord, you foolish, senseless people? He is your father, your Creator, he made you into a nation

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Who is the creator? Jesus. Who is the Father? Jesus. Jesus said, “I and the Father are One.”

As written:

John 14:9 - Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Anyone has seen Jesus, has seen the Father, for they are One. He is the Lord Almighty!

As written:

Isaiah 54:5 - Your Creator will be like a husband to you— the Lord Almighty is his name. The holy God of Israel will save you— he is the ruler of all the world.

Who is the Creator? Jesus. Who is the Lord Almighty? Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

How many God? One. How many Lord? One. Who is the creator? Jesus. Who created all things? Jesus. The Father is the Creator of all things. Jesus is the Creator of all things. The Father for whom we live. Jesus Christ through whom we live.

Notice the “EXACT” representation? The “EXACT” nature and glory of God? Did it say, anything which points to Jesus nature to “a lesser” or “on a lower level”?? Even a hint?

What did Jesus say? “I and the Father are one.” “How can you say, show us the Father?”


…..continued

Isaiah 44 - 6 "This is what the Lord says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come-- yes, let him foretell what will come. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

1 Corinthians 10:4 - and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Who is the Lord Almighty? Jesus. Who is the Rock? Jesus Christ. Who is the first and the last? Jesus.

As written:

Revelation 1- 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Who is the First and the Last? Jesus. Who was dead and was raised to life forever more? Jesus. Who is the Lord Almighty? Jesus. Who is the Rock? Jesus. Who said, “apart from me, there is no God” and “No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”?

Tell me, who is the Rock? Who is the First and the Last? Who is the Lord Almighty? What is His name?

Clue:

”I and the Father are one.”

John 17:11 - I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

So, what is the name of God the Father? What is the name He gave His Son?

Who is praying here? What is HIS name according to this verse?

Clue:

Matthew 1 - 20 But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; 21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

What is the name of God the Father?

It is non other than the name of “JESUS CHRIST” in which He gave to the Son. Surprised? Confused? Not sure? Read again.

”I and the Father are one. Apart from me there is no God. No, there is no other Rock. I know not one. I am the Lord Almighty. I am the First and the Last. I AM”

Do you understand God’s very being and nature, now?

C) God the Father calls His Son “God”

Hebrews 1: 8 - But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

God the Father calls His Son “God”. If Jesus was just a god, then the Father himself is in error, because He addresses Jesus, the Son as His “God”, exalted like the Father. Then, this verse is false according to the context “Jesus is just a god”.

You said:

that arguement doesnt prove they are the same, after all if "God" is just a title (which it is) the scripture would not be in conflict

Does not prove they are the same? You sure what you are reading? Read my previous explanation.

If God is just a title, then why describe the Word, “a god”, all in a lesser “power” and “degree” with the small “g” in context? In your context, Jesus is just a “lesser” god, not powerful than the God Almighty. He is not the same level as God. He has a name of lesser importance than the Father.

If this is so, then care to explain to me all of my previous explanation that the name Jesus is the Creator? The Everlasting Father? The Rock? The First and the Last? The Lord Almighty? The Savior? Apart from Him there is no God?

What is the name of the Father?

If you say this is only a mere title it becomes vague and you are not comprehending the scriptures well. You are confused between the word “title” and the very attributes and nature of God, who is – Almighty, Omnipotent, Eternal, Great, Savior, and Creator. These describe His very being and nature and not “title”. If this is just a mere title, then anyone can just attach “God” to his name without having any real powers at all.

Its like describing a sportsman – He is fast, strong, and agile. You don’t say fast is his title or strong is his title or agile is his title. This is not talking about titles but talks about his power and ability. If this is just a mere title, then anyone can have the title fast, strong, and agile, without even having these abilities.

If you say these are just mere titles then, it becomes vague and skewed because what you are attempting to do here is to claim “Jesus is *not* God” and when every time Jesus say, “I am God, the Lord Almighty, there is no other, there is no other Rock I know. I AM” in the scriptures, you are quick to say, “oh, its just a title that he claims, he is not god. He is just flesh. ho hum”.

Blatant ignorance of the scriptures and your whole theology crumbles. You are just trying to squeeze a camel in the eye of a needle.


D) Jesus is called “God with us”

Matthew 1:23 - "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."

Jesus was called God with us. If Jesus was just a god, then this verse is false and should read “A god is with us”.

You said:

or maybe thats just the meaning of the name and your assuming that it implies jesus is god.

isaiah 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

it just means he's on our side. its not proof of jesus' divinity

Maybe? You’re not sure again? Read everything above. Not proof of Jesus divinity? Read everything above. “ALL” of the above. Again, blatantly ignoring that Jesus is God in order to fit your erroneous doctrine of “the word was a god”.

….continued

E) Jesus and the Father are one.

John 10:30 - I and the Father are one."

If Jesus is just a god, then this verse is false because Jesus put himself as the same level with God the Father.

You said:

this one is funny because you talk about context and then ignore it.

read the rest of the chapter. the jews thought jesus was saying the same thing you think he's saying. verse 34 jesus corrects them by quoting psalms. by 38, he explains that he does his fathers works, thus implying that the father and him are one in will

isnt it said a husband and wife become ONE flesh? do you take that scripture literally too?

Again, you are misunderstanding the scriptures and your answers are so vague and out of context and totally irrelevant. I don’t even understand what you are saying. Look at the context like reading a newspaper.

Let us put the whole scripture here like reading the whole story of a report in a newspaper.

It is written:

John 10 - 22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

This whole incident is focused on Jesus claiming to be God that pissed the Jews off. You can almost hear them throwing nasty invectives at Him.

The Jews were so pissed that they want to hurt Jesus by stoning Him, all because He said that He was God. The Jews understood what He said, and that they understood Him well and got so fuming mad that they pick up stones to hurt Jesus because of this blasphemy of claiming Himself as “GOD”. The Jews clearly understood what was Jesus was saying. It was very clear to them what Jesus was implying, “I and the Father are one”. He was clearly implying the He is God.

”We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus did not even denied this or say, “I did not say I was God, its just a title” in order to save Himself knowing fully well that the Jews were picking up the rocks, ready to stone him in order to kill Him.

Read this again carefully:

“28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

….

In the eyes of the pissed Jews:

How can a mere man give eternal life? Is he God?! How can a mere man claim the same thing as “no one can snatch them out of my hand” and “no one can snatch them out of my Fathers hand”? Is he greater than all like God? Is he God trying to do the same thing as Him? Why is he a copy cat? He is just FLESH!! He cannot be equal than God! He is just a man! Why does he claim that he and the Father are one? Is he God??!! Outmost blasphemy!! Stone him to death!!##$$%%%!!

Do you get the drama and feel of the whole situation now?

So, according to your context that if Jesus was just a god, then you have the same blind understanding as these Jews who tried to kill Jesus by stoning Him, all because He was telling the truth that He was GOD Himself who created the heavens and the earth and before Abraham was, He said “I AM”.

As I have explained, the Jews knew very well, clear as crystal what Jesus was claming to be and Jesus did not even deny it, for He was telling the truth, otherwise, He will become like a liar, just like them. So, the Jews exclaimed and said:

”We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."


F) Jesus has the same glory as the Father

Isaiah 42:8 - "I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Reading the two verses above, the Lord will not give glory to another. But Jesus has the same glory as the Father. Since Jesus and the Father are one, they have the same glory and they will not give glory to another. If Jesus is just a god, then this verse is false for “a god” cannot have the glory of the God the Father.

You said :

the verse says "the glory i had with you" not the "same glory as you"

Wrong. Looking at the whole context in my previous explanations, “it is the *SAME* glory with the Father in which Jesus had with Him before He became flesh. Jesus, the Word, who became man was stripped of all the glory, power, and authority He had with the Father. That’s why Jesus said, “glorify me with the glory I *HAD* with you. Got it?

If you don’t get it, read everything again from the start.

What you are trying to imply here is the “the lesser glory I had with you” which is far far out of context of the whole scriptures of the Bible.


…. continued

G) God says to have no other gods before Him

Exodus 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before me.

God the Father calls Jesus His God. Jesus and the Father are one. One God. If Jesus is just a god, then both the Father and the Son breaks the Ten Commandments for God says to have no other gods before Him.

You said:

yes, but jesus NEVER told anyone to worship him. so no being a god wouldnt violate that law

Wrong again! Read and understand the following verses:

Matthew 2:2 - and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

….

Hebrews 1:6 - And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

….

Matthew 8:2 - And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean

.….

Matthew 14:14 - Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

….

Matthew 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

….

Mark 5:6 - But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

….

John 9:38 - And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

….

Matthew 28:17 - And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

So, tell me, who is worshipped here? If Jesus was not God, then He would tell all the people who worshipped Him to stop doing that and worship God alone. But He did not stop them for He is God Himself in the flesh. Got it?

As written:

Revelation 19:10 -At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

John was worshipping the angel here, but the angel said, “Do no do it!” Did Jesus say “Do no do it!”? Was Jesus an angel? Michael the acrchangel??

You’ve got a serious problem there friend! I just have no idea what kind of Bible you are carrying or where you get sources from. Watchtower, perhaps by any chance?

….continued

H) Jesus is God Almighty

Revelation 1:7 - Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

If Jesus is just a god, then this verse is false because it says, Jesus is God Almighty.

You said:

at first 9 introduces john. so john is same as jesus and god? verse 7 and 8 introduce them in the same order they are stated in verse 6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father"

Wrong! Your answers are so vague. Refer to my previous posts please.

I) Jesus is God overall

Romans 9:5 - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

If Jesus is a just a god, then this verse should read “who is a god over all”.

did not Yahweh appoint him as king over all?

again, god is a title.

God put Him as King overall and God over ALL. Don’t forget to add “God over ALL”. Don’t erase these feature.

God is a title?? Please read previous answer to this. Scroll up.

J) Jesus is our Great God

again, title.

Refer to previous answer. Scroll up.

K) God laid down his life for us

again.... title

Refer to previous answer. Scroll up.

L) Thomas said, “My Lord and my God!”

you guessed it, title

Wrong again! Refer to previous answer. Scroll up.

I can carry on till Z, if I want to. Now, if you were to take the translation as “The Word (Jesus) was a god”, then you have to throw the whole Bible away and preserve 5 words consisting of 14 letters only – “The Word was a god” in favor of the correctness of the Greek translation in your version which is very much questionable and refutable. It makes for a cheaper and thinner Bible by the way. lol

You said:

lol, now lets look at the context...

john 17:15 - jesus praying to god
john 12:28 - jesus asking god to do something and god replying
john 13:16, 14:12 and 28- jesus saying his father is greater than him.
john 4:34, 5:30, 6:38 and 40 - jesus talking about doing god's will and not his own (simply impossible if they are the same person)
john 4:34, 5:24,30,36,37, 6; 38,39,40,44,57 , 7:16 (also says that the doctrine is not his), 7:28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:18,21,23,25, 20:21- jesus refering to the fact that god "sent" him
john 7:28 - jesus saying he did not send himself
john 10:32-27 - jesus correcting jews for thinking he was calling himself god, why woul he correct them if it was true?
john 1:18 - no man has seen god

i took these scriptures just from john, there is more.

so if john was writing in verse 1:1 that jesus was yahweh, why would he then put all these scriptures that blatantly contradict verse 1?

Wrong again! Refer all to my previous answers from OT and NT and refer to the whole Bible. Scroll up.

Your answers are all so vague and without full context and understanding. It looks like John is the only verse that you are so much stressing and focusing on while clearly ignoring and neglecting the relevant and parallel verses of the OT and the NT *combined.* Let the scriptures test the scriptures. Let the scriptures interpret the scriptures by itself and not some group who interpret the scriptures according to what fits their own homemade theology. Might as well make your own Bible, just exactly like what the JW did, they made the NWT, the Bible which has the erroneous doctrine of “the word was a god”.

….continued

Are you really sure you are not Jehovah’s Witnesses? I swear this type of Bible understanding comes from JW. Its so typical – questioning the worship of Christ, the deity of Christ, etc. I can list all of them – 101 to be exact.

Since you say you’re not, then case closed. I won’t bother you again with this.

I once debated with JW members. I exposed everything about the institution. They were outright mad, but did not even say they were a member and yet defending the teachings of JW. Very contradictory.

All I did was to follow what Jesus said, to test the spirit. So I exposed them and they got mad, when they got mad, I quoted:

John 3:20 - Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

With this kind of erroneous doctrine, “the word was a god”, I tested the fruits as Jesus said, “By its fruits you shall know them”.

Mattew 7 - 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

What fruit came out while I was shaking the tree? Occultic materials accompanied by erroneous and weird doctrines, not just “the word was a god”.

What Jesus said was true then. Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirit.

Originally posted by amitheone
....There are scriptures which says Jesus is God, while there are scriptures that says, that the Father is greater than Jesus, ..... No contradiction. Totally agree.

However, Jesus has a divine nature as well. .....

im using the ... in your quotes because your post is INSANELY long. you know what you said so im going to try to slim this out as much as i can.

i agree, jesus was more than a human both before his human life and after. the part we disagree on is whether he is the same person as Yahweh.

as for miracles being proof of divine nature, i disagree because the apostle did alot of the same things jesus did and it was by holy spirit, not by divine nature.

Colossian 2:9 - For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

now i want to explain something. if jesus is "a" god, it would not conflict with this scripture. at thats the problem with alot of the scripture you quoted, all they prove is that jesus is godly.

which i agree, jesus is a god.

but god is a title. you simply cant say it isnt.

proof of that is in the inspired words of 2 cor 4:4 where satan is refered to as "the god of this world"

psalm 82:6 calls humans god's, jesus quotes that after in john 10.

that arguement is further proved by that fact that GOD has a name

psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

so GOD is not a name but a title. that having been said, alot of your quoted scriptures do not disprove the fact that jesus is a separate person from Yahweh (or Jehovah, whichever you prefer)

it expects one to have already understood the nature of Jesus, ......
No contradiction here. ..... All because He is in the flesh for the Word became flesh. .....How can a servant and a flesh be greater than God the Father who is in heaven? That’s why Jesus clearly said, “a servant is not greater than his master” and “the Father is greater than I” simply because Jesus was still in the flesh, the Word became flesh. Jesus was merely demonstrating His very nature of being “human” and a “servant” of the Lord to fulfill his purpose on Earth.

but... what you are defining here is clearly 2 separate people. how can GOD be GOD and Jesus and be master AND slave? it flies in the face of reason. its contradiction you cannot simple step over!

even if jesus is a fleshly extension of god, why would he say he is less than god? he's still god!

to denote any difference between the 2 would be in simples terms a death to the doctrine of duality, because 2 cannot be the same and yet different.

but being as you dont see the contradiction, ill move on.

Philippians 2 - 5 ...

As noted, emptied Himself of what? ....in the form of weak flesh.

2 things. 1 - if i make a cookie in the form of a tiger, does that mean that the cookie IS a tiger? why would i say i made the cookie in the form of a tiger? why would i not say i baked a tiger? the sentence is the way it is because jesus was in the "form" of god, not god.

2 - emptied himself would be appropriate if jesus was "a" god. being the firstborn of all creation, of course he would be powerful. if he was the tool god used to create all things then too he WOULD need to be powerful.

so this scripture does not conflict with the fact that jesus IS a separate person. in fact it fits better.

John 17:5 -....

again, this scripture in no way conflicts with the fact that jesus and god are separate people.

John 18 – ......

As clearly shown here, Jesus knew that he is going to die already.......His mission on Earth, to save mankind.

again, jesus is the firstborn of creation, the first thing created ever. of course he was with the father before the world, of course he had glory. that fact that it is using the language "with you" should atest to the fact they are separate people.

its funny because you are quoting all these scriptures, but you are ignoring all the grammar because it goes against what you are saying

John 1 - 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

On the other hand, having the very nature God , one will also read scriptures that Jesus is God, not a god, but God, the Almighty. God the Father calls His son “God”. Jesus says, “I AM”, God the Father says, “I AM”, as written:

Exodus 3:14 - God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

God says “I am”. Jesus says “I am”. The Father calls Jesus His God. The Son calls His Father His God. Jesus says, I and the Father are one. It’s so clear and definite. Clear as crystalline.

if john 1:1 is to be read that jesus is GOD (despite the amazingly simple grammar that says otherwise) then you immediately have a contradiction.

"in the beginning"... beginning of what? god? god doesnt have a beginning. genesis starts out with "in the beginning" too. so "in the beginning was the word". again, no contradiction, jesus was the firstborn and the master builder. while god design the universe, it is jesus who made it.

"and the word was with god". two separate people "clear as crystalline."

now with the context you turn to the last phrase "and the word was god" and you say that HAS to mean that jesus and god are the same. wait what? even john himself later provide further context for this scripture (most of which you ignore)

about "i am", i want you to note that in the original hebrew, the verses after 14, GOD specifically uses his name Jehovah.

but when jesus uses it in the greek, its not the same. why? because when 8:58 was originally translated into english, it used an archaic grammer contruction. ill give another example

mark 5:[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

in todays english we would say "i have come", not "i am come"

john 8:58 can also be translated "i was" or "I have been"

of course i understand this is inconvenient to your arguement and you will probably ignore it like the last time i pointed this out.

Psalms 45 - 6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Hebrews 1 - 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Scriptures from the OT and NT confirming each other that the Father calls His Son “God”. Clear as the blue sky.

Failing to comprehend Jesus’ two natures while in the flesh will compromise your understanding of the scriptures and it will become one sided and vague and will lead to the erroneous doctrine of “the word was a god”.

again, neither of these scriptures conflict with the notion that jesus is a separate person, if anything they confirm it since GOD is calling jesus "god" which i have given ample proof that it is a title.

A) Jesus was equal with God

John 5:18 - .....

.... If Jesus was just a god, then this verse is false as Jesus has equal standing with God according to the verse.

so the jews misunderstanding jesus is proof enough to you?

You said:

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

john 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

maybe john 5:18 is simply stating what the jews thought he was saying... because jesus himself says something different.

Maybe? Unsure? Read my previous explanations.

here i show you proof from jesus' own mouth, and you take the easy way out and simply ignore it. if you take 5:18, 13:16, and 14:28, one would logically conclude that the jews misunderstood jesus and got mad about it.

not the first time it happened right?

john 6:51-71 read that when you get the chance

B) Jesus is the very nature God

Philippians 2:6 - ....

Philippians 2:6 - ....

Jesus is the very nature God. If Jesus was just a god, then how can he be the very nature God?....

You said:

there is a HUGE difference between being in the FORM of someone and BEING someone. ...

There is no difference according to context. You are focusing too much on a verse and stress too much on single words, while neglecting the relevant and parallel context of other verses to complete your understanding.....

.....

lol, single words are what make up a sentence.

jesus is the form (or nature) of god is very different from jesus being the same as god. there was a reason the word "form" (or nature) was used. it means that jesus had the same characteristics as god, definatly not that he was god.

i know the word "nature" is abit inconvenient for you case, but cant just step over it by saying well, you have to look at the context instead of the word.

Hebrews 1:3 - The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,....

Jesus is the EXACT representation of his “being”. ....

John 1:18 - ....who is at the Father's side, .....

Who is the God the One and Only? Who sat at the Father’s side? Who sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven?

JESUS, GOD THE ONE AND ONLY.....

again, you blatantly misrepresent scripture, the son is a "representation" of god. ever been to court? isnt you lawyer your representation? he speaks on your behalf. 2 separate people!

so god (jesus with the use of the title) is at the father's side. this to you means that he is the father?

you also skipped the beginning of verse 18 with says that noone has seen god, which doesnt make sense if jesus was god.

it amazes me how you read a scripture and misinterpret what is plainly there.

Jesus sustains “ALL” things by his powerful word up to the very atoms of your body and to the very energy of the whole universe, the Sun, the stars, and the galaxies. For He is the creator of All things.

As written:

John 1 - 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Through Jesus, through the Word, all things were made. Without Him, nothing will exist. Jesus is the Creator of heaven and earth. Having established this fact about Jesus, what does the scriptures tells us about Him?

notice the words through him? what does that mean?

proverbs 8:23-31 explains that jesus was god's master craftsman.

its easy to see how god is the arquitect and jesus is the foreman.

John 14:9 - .... Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father......

Anyone has seen Jesus, has seen the Father, for they are One. He is the Lord Almighty!

again, we go back to "representation", "image". if jesus is the "form" of god, then you dont need to see god because jesus represents god perfect, but it still doesnt mean they are one.

Isaiah 54:5 - Your Creator will be like a husband to you— the Lord Almighty is his name. The holy God of Israel will save you— he is the ruler of all the world.

Who is the Creator? Jesus. Who is the Lord Almighty? Jesus.

you do realize that Yahweh is the creator, and that he created the world "through" jesus? you quoted john, not me.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

How many God? One. How many Lord? One. Who is the creator? Jesus. Who created all things? Jesus. The Father is the Creator of all things. Jesus is the Creator of all things. The Father for whom we live. Jesus Christ through whom we live.

.....

again you just ignore the parts of the scripture that are inconvenient for you. one god = creator, AND only one lord = through which things were created. 1+1 doesnt = 1. it equals 2.