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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I have a very nice book by Rene Fulop-Miller on the Jesuits, it skirts over the Illuminati, but it does go into the relationship with the Freemason in some detail and the lead up to the Clermont accusations, among other run-ins.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
This is the problem all over. Stop trying to read so much into it. Don't be so defensive. I am not here to make anyone look stupid, I just want to play!
Please hold that particular mirror up to yourself.
What is the Democratic National Committee??? What exactly are they supposed to have told me? All I was attempting point out and the point which you have relentlessly laboured since is that a) can it be 100% categorically, assured that George Bush never joined the freemasons, and which developed into b) would George Bush be someone the Masons would want to be associated with. You say yes to both points.
Or lets leave politics altogether if you like...it is not about the man's politics, religion or whatever, it is about the man's character. He may not have been proven guilty of a crime in a court of law yet, but that does not mean that there is no evidence that he has committed crimes against international law, laws that your country and mine were party to writing.
Originally posted by Nebel
Have you heard of The Order of the Eastern Star?
They only accept high level masons and there altar resembles a pentagram.
The Order claims to believe in God and Jesu, but who really knows...
If they are up to a conspiracy, then I believe they have closed off inside membership. Remember, Freemasonry is a society in a society it has been said. It is rumored there are 33 levels of Freemasonry,
and now there are only 3. What happened to the other 30, if they ever existed?
And why did they decide to allow membership to woman and non-whites all of a sudden,
more interestingly, why did they previously reserve it for white men?
There are too many unanswered questions revolving around them, and too many answers to the questions noone knows what to believe...
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I am quite sure Bush never joined the masons, because given our history of promoting every single President regardless of his political affiliation, it would be an extraordinary break from the norm to ignore this about Bush. Also, given the fact that sites like ATS absolutely orgasm at the thought of bashing Bush, if he were a mason it would give the anti-masonic brigade here enough fodder to latch on for years - its an opportunity people wouldn't pass up.
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Its obvious that if George Bush were a mason, masons who were not blinded by partisanship would not have a problem with him. He does do good for his community and for others, and he meets the requirements. I'm quite sure there would be masons who would not like it...I would hope they would all overcome their partisanship - although I'm sure some would not.
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I am sorry if I stated your hatred for Bush and you have none, but what I saw was you finding out that masonry would not reject Bush and then you pulling an absolute 360 into proclaiming we've lost our way due to that. Only very strong emotional feelings spawn that sort of complete reversal of opinion, and when its a reversal in a bad way, it usually is due to hate or something similar. I jumped to conclusions though, although I am still not sure what else it could be - just a strong dislike of him wouldn't be enough to cause such a shift in opinion normally.
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
As I said...I'm not trying to be combative here. I think my writing style is authoritative due to writing too many academic papers where writing like this is required to defend yourself. I'm not though. Feel the brotherly love!
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I have a very nice book by Rene Fulop-Miller on the Jesuits, it skirts over the Illuminati, but it does go into the relationship with the Freemason in some detail and the lead up to the Clermont accusations, among other run-ins.
I have that here - a first edition actually!
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
I remember the brief mentions of the Enlightenment and Freemasonry and the Illuminati - way too brief for my taste. I don't remember anything about the Clermont chapter though; I'll look a bit later.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
I haven't read many books about the Jesuits (from beginning to end), but this one I did. It was measured and fair - all around - I thought. There's one part in the book that I don't recall ever seeing anywhere; it's where Fulop-Miller goes into the importance that the Jesuits had on the thoughts of the philosophes during the Enlightenment.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Particularly, the importance of the missionary work in China; that the Jesuits were practically responsible for the fact that Confucius became somewhat akin to a rockstar at the time.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
There's also some weird analysis in the book. Like when Loyola is compared with Lenin!
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Rather, it was named "Clermont" in honor of the French Grand Master, the Duc de Clermont, and not because of any connection with the Jesuit College of Clermont." One curious bit of real history, however, is the fact that a Jesuit Novitiate in Paris was sold to the masons for the headquarters of the Grand Orient of France, in the Faubourg Saint Germain in 1774. And yet another curious fact, is that a Jesuit Novitiate was transformed into a Scientology retreat in Sheridan, Oregon in 1974.]
Originally posted by Trinityman
You'll have to tell me more about this, as anything you find interesting I'm bound to also. All I know about Clermont and his Chapter is that he was part of the evolution of the Scottish Rite on the continent, and as such had very limited influence on the development of (Craft) freemasonry as a whole. I have a more global perspective on freemasonry than the average poster and am acutely aware of the relative bias towards Scottish Rite freemasonry in the US - a bias which simply doesn't exist elsewhere.
Originally posted by Trinityman
I know what you mean KT. Some freemasons ( and I include myself here periodically) get frustrated at some of the more outlandish posts and their seeming lack of headway with some entrenched viewpoints. There are so few people who post objectively or rationally that sensible conversation is hard to come by. Some masons do seem to get more frustrated than others though.
Originally posted by Trinityman
Yeah. I know. I've even read recently here that freemasons who post on ATS are now generally assumed to be co-ordinating their efforts, due to the similarity and structure of postings. This assumption saddens me, as I know it's not happening (or if it is, they forgot to tell me about it ) - it hasn't occurred to people that there might be another reason why there is a pattern from different posters.
Originally posted by Trinityman
Sorry for the off-topic blather. Your level-headed approach and independent questioning is important and appreciated. I've cut back my time on ATS to restore some sanity, and I would recommend some others do the same. A lack of perspective is a dangerous thing.
it is highly possible that i may just have got my wires crossed about the Clermont chapter and Clermont College, thereby confusing the significance.
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Just my opinion, but as a student of political science and public administration I know that I am commanded to be true to my government. Government is only really government when it has the legitimate right to use the coercive powers of the state. Legitimacy is what defines an institution of government. If the government does not have legitimacy, then it is no longer the government but is instead something else. As such, I find no problem with the masons in the revolution - their government was no longer legitimate, and I do not find it breaking the oath to do what they did.
Originally posted by Capozzelli
I am surpirsed that none of the other masons answered my question about the words in the oath. I wanted to hear if they had the same opinion as alightindarkenss or if they feel different. At what point would the masons feel that they couldn't be 'true to your government and just to your country'? I'm sure there are some masons who don't like Bush and think he is not worth being true and just to. What makes you decide to become involved in a revolution?
Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Not liking the government due to politics isn't valid. If we started a revolution every time the media programmed people to hate someone as they have Bush, we'd need a whole new country every 20 years or so.