Shards of the Illuminati, page 4
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reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 01:12 AM by Maban
reply to post by theBLESSINGofVISION

Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
First of all when you say that "these matter are in regards to our origins...", who is being referred to by "our"?

Also, what is the reason that this line of information need be handled very... cautiously?

If "some" are, as you say, "justified" and "hold much truth", what is the justification for being withholding and in turn concealing these "truths" by not being forthright and sharing what you mean by this exactly?

If individuals actively withhold the truth and then dismiss inquiries by saying "in the end people will see the truth, and much will change," should those not privy to the truth take these words as ominous and threatening, merely as a logical observation?

Intentions to be vague and non specific in regards to the truth are indeed deception tactics intentionally used to conceal the specific truth, are they not?

In your opinion, what are (if any) the quintessential differences between someone like you (an insider) and someone like me (not an insider)?


Wow, I apologize for what must seem to be obvious misdirection, and evasion. I must also stress patience; i have a lot to read and watch in order to thoroughly answer such questions. I prefer to answer each person's post and questions thoughtfully and thoroughly. I see this to be a "major factor," in regards to both my message and credibility. Therefore i have decided to elaborate upon them to the fullest extent i can, while maintaining discretion.

Primarily, Why do we keep secrets?
Primarily protection. The minute we disclose "secrets" to any partition of the populous, there are always consequences, I have yet to see one scenario which was 100% beneficial to the Shards. There is a group i have mentioned before (NIA) who hold the same "truths" as I, except they by no means care for you, nor I. There have been incidents. Incidents where the release of such "secrets" have met the disseminator with a... loss of life. We may not resort to physical force, but only as a last defense. The same cannot be said about our opponents. I cannot name the actual number, but many have sacrificed everything for our cause. I will not jeopardize nor disgrace their memories by doing so, just to "prove" myself in any way. Regardless of my intended warm demeanor and optimism; it is truly one side of the coin. In our cause great losses have been inflicted. We are confident, but weary and overly protective. I state this not for sympathy, but a level of understanding, or relation. A medium to help you understand my inability to disclose any and everything.

I have reservations about saying this, but say this i will:
What is in all actuality occurring is an Invisible War, to quote someone memorable in fiction:
"A war with no battles, no monuments; only casualties."
We are not winning, then again neither are they. We are holding the line, holding the line against the long night; waiting, hoping for the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully you can better identify with my perspectives here after.


To answer your questions, as asked:

"Our" refers to the "Shards of the Illuminati."

As I previously stated, such information holds great power; as the proverb goes. This power should be wielded by no man, such power has the ability to unite or destroy the bonds between all separating lines we as humans have drawn. Our "Origins" are not key, but are based off several "truths' which "religions" are built upon. However, their revelations and teachings are (attempting to put this as delicately and carefully as ever possible)... misinterpreted. Rest assured the core beliefs of how one should lead their lives and feverishly build a future are ideal, many other "details" are left to interpretation (this is as far as I will venture into this sub-subject). This "foundation" upon which everything was built holds great power that should not and cannot be wielded. Not by one man, not by any group. This power should be wielded by all humanity, and will revel itself in due time. Please bear with me, I am attempting to divulge as much as possible without compromising the integrity of either your justified question,nor my own duty. We cannot allow any one person nor entity to gain a hold of this power before humanity is ready to take the next step into the future; this remains our solemn duty, the maintenance of this world until the time is right.

I believe I answered your second question in my previous paragraph. We withhold things for the greater good, things that are indeed "truth," but not all truth is good. "The truth may set you free," after the ashes of civilization settle. Many may ask if we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the outcome, so I ask this again. What would be the result if every religion was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they where false, and every government and ruling body a farce. It would not simply be chaos and anarchy, it is unlikely that many,if any would survive, effectively ending humanity. To our knowledge, our "saving grace" is that for whatever reason NIA does into wish the world in shambles, at least... not yet. When that day comes it could only be best described by poetry, in form of an Apocalypse. For those whom believe in such a thing i need not elaborate. For those whom are skeptical; imagine the worse atrocities and dark eras on the world,now imagine them coexisting in one short violent period epitomizing our end; that is a rough equivalent.

"Should those not privy to the truth take these words as ominous and "threatening, merely as a logical observation?"
No, as hard and infuriating as it is to believe we do so for the best of reasons. You are our kin, we are all human and wish nothing but greatness, peace, and happiness for you all. As a result we cannot risk this future to satisfy curiosity. Individuals can be trusted with such solemn duties, and sacred truths. Masses cannot. In addition completely open forms such as these are available for any and all to see, including our enemies. We are still human, but hold ourselves to a higher standard, to ensure no mistakes are made. We where trained young to regard ourselves as the last line of defense and hope for humanity, I hold to that very idea to this day.

Continued >>>


reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 01:28 AM by Maban
Originally posted by theBLESSINGofVISION
Intentions to be vague and non specific in regards to the truth are indeed deception tactics intentionally used to conceal the specific truth, are they not?

In your opinion, what are (if any) the quintessential differences between someone like you (an insider) and someone like me (not an insider)?


As a direct definition, yes. However I do not intend nor do i unintentionally deceive. I may veer away from a topic of which I know no value can be gained, however i do not present misinformation or sophistry. I merely present as much truth as I am able, and leave out what i cannot, with a footnote to such an action (more courtesy than any media outlet would provide).

Hardship. People do not fully realize the hardship we face. A public uphill battle, paranoia about our most elusive enemy's whereabouts, capture, torture, death. None of these outcomes are ever good, thus my previous statement in context to these types of disseminations. My hope is out of all this a little spark of truth or ambition will ignite, fueling a desire for good and hope. People on the "outside" as you say, are very much like us. The only difference is an immense sense of solemn duty, courage, selflessness, and an essential willingness to die in some of the most unimaginable ways. In unimaginable ways for a people who spite you, and will in most likelihood never know of your struggles or likeness to themselves. We fight for a people whom may not know we exist, and for a minority who despise us, but we fight none the less. As the casualties are tabulated and end draws near we grow wearier and wearier. If there is any absolute difference between us it is this, defiance for what is right, no matter the personal sacrifice the greater good must be upheld to your dying breath. I mean no pathos, just sincerity, this is our fate, our destiny if you will. We not only have accepted it, but have embraced it as the result of our cause. I do not look for vindication, nor recognition, only understanding.


reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 02:27 AM by Maban
reply to post by SystemiK

Originally posted by SystemiK

1. To what extent does technology play into your efforts?

A: A big part, many of our fellow Illuminons own and run major Aerospace Corporations (technology based, not necessarily aerospace) aimed at advancing our technological status. Technology is the key to our futures. If people can adapt to the ever expansive field of technological achievements. We use technology as much as possible,it gives us the advantage over our opponents.

2. Don't you expose yourself to possible discovery by your "enemies" by revealing your IP address when you post to a public forum such as ATS?

A; In short yes. I live near a shard "HQ" if you will. That said, they would have to both confirm I know what I know as the same "truths" (this my caution in certain topics). Also they would have to take down one of the biggest shards with major financial and political ties in the local regions and internationally. Simply, it would be too big to cover up;even for NIA. The Remnants are not so organized nor suicidal. NIA is nor overt, nor lets any know about them. We must claw for information and yet again it is not much. In most likelihood they see us as no more than a nuisance, because we do not provoke but can hit back fast and hard.

3. NWO theories aside, do you have any opinions re: the effect of frequencies on human consciousness such as the topic in this thread

A: I would need to consult a fellow Illuminon regarding this. I unfortunately do not posses the patience, nor in-depth knowledge to pursue math based conceptualizations. Nothing i read through struck a chord, so I do not think it to be a major issue; however i will consult several fellow Illuminons on the subject.

4. I would also be very interested to know if you have any theories regarding DNA and any possible role it may play in a possible next step up for humanity.

A: DNA is one of the two base codes for life/sentience. That said, I am sure we will see some interesting future mutations of RNA transcriptions. However,i would stress the development of mental clarity will propel us further into the future than any DNA based technological advancements to ourselves.

Hopefully my answers where well directed at all your questions.

- Maban


reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 06:10 AM by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Originally posted by Maban
Our shard is of direct descent of Adolph Knigge who was one of the original 17, whom helped found the original Bavarian Illuminati.


You're a very imaginative fellow, I'll give you that; but these so-called "Illuminons" have given you the wrong history of the Illuminati. 1) Baron von Knigge was initiated in July, 1780. 2) The Bavarian Illuminati were originally composed of five members (1776/5/1), not seventeen. The five: Weishaupt (Spartacus); Franz Anton von Massenhausen (Ajax) and Max Edler von Merz (Tiberius), his pupils at Ingolstadt before the Order existed; a law student, Bauhof [Bauhoff, or Baubof] (Agathon), in which little else is known; and Andreas Sutor (Erasmus Roterodamus). And 3), Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Baron von Knigge (1752 Bredenbeck, Germany – 1796 Bremen, Germany) obviously wasn't one of the original members of the Illuminati, as he became a member only in 1780, a full 4 years after the Order's founding.

Maybe I'm jaded after all these years of associating with "conspiracy theorists," but I am fully expecting an answer similar to: "that's what 'official history' tells us." If that's the case, spare me; it may work with someone else, but I know better. I'm sorry, but no amount of revisionism, or fanciful tales, will ever change the facts of the previous paragraph.

Originally posted by Maban
...he [Knigge] fathered at least two sons...One was later killed...the other son Agoustous Knigge, later moved to Iceland


It's possible. Where can I verify this in the historical record? I am genuinely interested to verify if Knigge had children, and/or if indeed one any settled in Iceland.


[edit on 13-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]


reply posted on 13-5-2008 @ 07:47 PM by Spaxz
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Very good question! Starred, for i'm interested in his answer. But one has to always remember, "To the Victor writes history" or atleast the ones in control.



reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 03:57 PM by Sir Francis Bacon
Originally posted by Maban
Firstly, yes it is Appleseed, specifically Appleseed and Appleseed Ex Machina. Two very good movies which reflect the Shard's values greatly; if anyone has seen these you will almost immediately understand why. I thought I had answered this question earlier, but must have gotten confused in my excitement to answer all these insightful questions.


You had already answered it further back, yes. I already knew who it was, though, as anyone who has been a Manga and anime fan at any stage in their life should.

Originally posted by Maban
To answer your question, how long?

Well, hopefully for quite some time. I feel that you bring up a very pertinent point I should fully address. Typically an Illuminon in such a "situation," is only online for only the shortest of periods to "get the word out" so to say, and they retreat behind a security blanket of secrecy. This "fall back time" is typically up to the discretion of each individual Illuminon unless otherwise directed by their Shard's Council, or the Icelandic Shard's Council. I can assure you "others" are watching this very thread, both to judge how people in general respond, and how I personally am furthering our cause. I certainly would not call it "control," just cautious oversight." There can never be too many eyes watching the unknown. To return to your question, most Illuminons have not exceeded a "Three Month" "publications" period, simply for safety and security reasons. I feel I should add that I am one of a handful from all the Shards whom, "push the envelope," so to speak. At one point I had a nine month "Chat Room" sortie before my Shard asked me to withdraw. To honestly answer your question, I don't know, hopefully as long as possible. I will say this as long as we are productive and willing to listen to anyone and everyones questions, concerns, and opinions this could last a long time. As a promise to all of you I will notify you if i am requested to withdraw, and hope that the timing is not inconvenient. Far too often "informants" (if you will) go silent at the wrong moment, dissolving whatever structures of truth they had formed and solidified. I hope to finally "fade out" when none are interested in what I have to say. When any and all questions that could be asked, have. I wish to "fade out," when I am of no more use to either the public or the Shards in this regard. Hope that sufficiently answers your question.


It has sufficiently answered it, yes. Thank you.


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 04:27 PM by Sir Francis Bacon
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


You're a very imaginative fellow, I'll give you that; but these so-called "Illuminons" have given you the wrong history of the Illuminati. 1) Baron von Knigge was initiated in July, 1780. 2) The Bavarian Illuminati were originally composed of five members (1776/5/1), not seventeen. The five: Weishaupt (Spartacus); Franz Anton von Massenhausen (Ajax) and Max Edler von Merz (Tiberius), his pupils at Ingolstadt before the Order existed; a law student, Bauhof [Bauhoff, or Baubof] (Agathon), in which little else is known; and Andreas Sutor (Erasmus Roterodamus). And 3), Adolph Franz Friedrich Ludwig Baron von Knigge (1752 Bredenbeck, Germany – 1796 Bremen, Germany) obviously wasn't one of the original members of the Illuminati, as he became a member only in 1780, a full 4 years after the Order's founding.


A well written recital, Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men. I'm not arguing on Maban's behalf, but he did say that Knigge was "part of the original 17 who helped found the order." So he may have been instrumental in the founding even if he wasn't one of the initial members. Or he may have joined earlier than is listed. What is your source documentation for the above, and are you certain that the information contained therein is 100% accurate? I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm honestly not knowledgeable enough to discount either yourself or Maban, here.

Google is not my friend.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Maybe I'm jaded after all these years of associating with "conspiracy theorists," but I am fully expecting an answer similar to: "that's what 'official history' tells us." If that's the case, spare me; it may work with someone else, but I know better. I'm sorry, but no amount of revisionism, or fanciful tales, will ever change the facts of the previous paragraph.


Heh, but that's what it all comes down to, isn't it? Facts. What is an actual fact, and how objective are those "actual facts" in the history books? When you're researching an order like the Bavarian Illuminati how much can really be trusted? Like I said earlier, I'm not discounting either one of you, but I think it's a bit arrogant to say "I know better, I'm sorry" when how could you possibly? How do you know better? Who are you?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Originally posted by Maban
...he [Knigge] fathered at least two sons...One was later killed...the other son Agoustous Knigge, later moved to Iceland


It's possible. Where can I verify this in the historical record? I am genuinely interested to verify if Knigge had children, and/or if indeed one any settled in Iceland.


Just because something is not verified in the historical record that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And just because something is verified in the historical record, that doesn't mean it did happen -- or happened exactly the way they say it did.

Again, I'm not discounting you, Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men. Everything you've said may be as accurate as can be, but I'm not going to Google out a digitised piece of processed wood and go around saying "I know better" for reading it. I know # all, Sir.


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 04:37 PM by Spaxz
reply to post by Sir Francis Bacon


Very well said!!! Anything in the past, that surpasses human life can very well be false or misleading. Unless you were there you can never know 100% what happened.

Love and Light


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 05:44 PM by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Originally posted by Sir Francis Bacon

What is your source documentation for the above, and are you certain that the information contained therein is 100% accurate?


Weishaupt himself, for one. Knigge as well. We're not dealing with fairy tales here - despite the fact that Maban seems to thrive on such things.

After the Illuminati had been discovered the Bavarian Elector published the confiscated communications of the conspirators. In it Weishaupt specifically tells Cato-Zwack in a letter who were the five originals (In a letter dated 25 February, 1778 - see Einige Originalschriften des Illuminatenordens…, p. 200)

Knigge too, he admitted when and how he had been initiated into the Illuminati. He also wrote an apology for his activities.

Saying that Knigge was one of the founders and that there were 17 not 5, is preposterous and absurd. Everyone who knows anything at all about the Illuminati would laugh you right out of the room - deservedly so.

I've been doing real research into the Bavarian Illuminati for the last three years. I have the Original Writings right here in front of me; ask ConspiracyNut23. And on top of that, I've read everything else that is authoritative on the subject. My book is done and it's coming out in August. I just spoke to my publisher and everything's on schedule. My life has been consumed with this subject for quite some time now. Besides 2 professors in Germany, I can say with confidence that there is no one else on the entire planet that knows more about the Bavarian Illuminati; and if I were in a bragging mood, I'd seriously even question that their own understanding might be superior to mine.


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 06:34 PM by Maban
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


It is good to meet a well informed individual; despite any "hostile" posturing. I respect the fact you have done thorough research and can reinforce your arguments. To say "that's what 'official history' tells us" would be wrong. Most information about the original Bavarian Illuminati has come to surface except for a few details that Shards have been careful to "clean up" so to say. Bear in mind our information does not come from Adolph Knigge himself, he was never involved with the Shards whatsoever; however his son was. Agoustous Knigge was "the" founding father of the Icelandic Shard. That said, he certainly may have had incomplete information from his father, or chose to change certain details. Surely any son would be willing to change details about family history to cover up any type failures or indecencies to save face. Our information about Adolph Knigge and the original Bavarian Illuminati descends directly from him. The reason why i stated the original "17" was (to our knowledge) was one of the first 17 members, whom later played an "instrumental" role in the shard. Specifically his boisterous and dissent-ful protests against Wisehaupt and his methods. We view him as a critical member for obvious reasons, and see Wisehaupt as the darker of of the two outlooks/personas. He may not have been viewed by all as essential or paramount but certainly to our Shards; I apologize if i did not make this viewpoint initially clear and obvious.

As I also previously mentioned Agoustous Knigge moved to Iceland under an alias. Assuredly this act was to hide his footsteps, given that his family's name had become so renown, it was obviously necessary to cease using it in the public domain. regardless he continued to use his father's name (Knigge) in Shard affairs.

To be blunt and honest the Shard's information about the original Bavarian Illuminati and it's founders is essentially limited, to what is public knowledge. Bear in mind that there was (as I previously mentioned) an internal upheaval shortly (respectively) after the formulation of the Icelandic Shard. Where after many people formed new Shards and spread across the globe. Needless to say in this long process, not all information was retained and remains to be 100% accurate; thus my initial disclaimer of 95%. I cannot tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt every "nitty gritty" detail about the original Bavarian Illuminati, simply because even we do not possess all of them. In addition given current geopolitical circumstances our focus is less on the past and more so on the future, for what I am sure is obvious reasons. We are using every and any resource in aims of the future, the past presents important lessons, lessons in which I believe we have internalized, and are able to move past. Calls have been made to investigate our (Bavarian) dissent more closely, but resources and Illuminon duties are tight. We also do not place emphasis on the Bavarian Illuminati for they were simply a stepping stone along the path of Illuminism. I am quite confident that none of this information will satisfy you, none the less I am confident many other will wish to see an answer. Good day.


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 06:54 PM by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by Maban


Okay, then, fair enough. Not everyone can know their own history as much as an anal-retentive perfectionist who prides himself in looking under every nook and cranny just for spite!

However, I would genuinely like to know if there is any secondary source for the existence of said Agoustous Knigge. Hell, I'll even put it in my book if I can confirm it. Everyone is born, there's always a record in some city archive and especially in churches.

His existence - can it be proved? That is it.


reply posted on 15-5-2008 @ 07:00 PM by Sir Francis Bacon
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Weishaupt himself, for one. Knigge as well. We're not dealing with fairy tales here - despite the fact that Maban seems to thrive on such things.

After the Illuminati had been discovered the Bavarian Elector published the confiscated communications of the conspirators. In it Weishaupt specifically tells Cato-Zwack in a letter who were the five originals (In a letter dated 25 February, 1778 - see Einige Originalschriften des Illuminatenordens…, p. 200)


There's no need to insult the good Maban, now, is there? As I said before, I'm not discounting you. I'm not denying your knowledge, I'm just asking how certain you are that it's correct and why. I, personally, wouldn't consider one letter from Weishaupt a certainty. But it is a good start, I guess. You're right.


Knigge too, he admitted when and how he had been initiated into the Illuminati. He also wrote an apology for his activities.


Perhaps, perhaps, but who knows what fabrications he could have made? I make up all kinds of things to get out of trouble.


Saying that Knigge was one of the founders and that there were 17 not 5, is preposterous and absurd. Everyone who knows anything at all about the Illuminati would laugh you right out of the room - deservedly so.


It just all depends on how strict you are with Maban's words, and how much faith you put into the recovered documents and confessions. I, myself, don't really have a great deal of faith in anything any of them had to say -- but I'm a Discordian, and am prohibited from believing that which I read. If that makes me eligible to be laughed out of the room by you "experts" then so be it. I'm no stranger to being laughed at.

I was just wondering, though -- on the off chance; did you ever see Orson Welles' F For Fake?


I've been doing real research into the Bavarian Illuminati for the last three years. I have the Original Writings right here in front of me; ask ConspiracyNut23. And on top of that, I've read everything else that is authoritative on the subject. My book is done and it's coming out in August. I just spoke to my publisher and everything's on schedule. My life has been consumed with this subject for quite some time now. Besides 2 professors in Germany, I can say with confidence that there is no one else on the entire planet that knows more about the Bavarian Illuminati; and if I were in a bragging mood, I'd seriously even question that their own understanding might be superior to mine.


Ah, an author? Good for you, Sir, good for you. I respect your literary ability and acknowledge it as very skilled. It's just some of your reasoning I have a few problems with. If you're still around these parts when your work is released, would you please drop me the title and publisher in a u2u message? I will purchase a copy and will read it. You write in a style that I know I'll enjoy reading.
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