for neo-nazi holocaust deniers

Germany’s Master Plan – The Story of Industrial Offensive, by Joseph Borkin and Charles A Welsh, 1943
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...[/url]
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...

Germany’s Master Plan (1943) by Borkin and Welsh analyzes how the Nazis took advantage of the budding globalized economy to restrict both their enemies’ strategic production and their access to critical raw materials. The same cartel agreements gave the German war economy access to technological know-how and raw materials vital to the successful prosecution of modern industrial warfare.

Borkin and Welsh discuss von Clausewitz’s analysis of the relationship between war and peace, essential to understanding the concept of ‘Total War’ … Disarm your enemy in peace by diplomacy and trade if you would conquer him more readily on the field of battle.

Treason’s Peace – German Dyes and American Dupes
by Howard Watson Ambruster, 1947
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...
According to Emory,

One cannot understand the history of the 20th century without understanding the role played in world events by the I.G. Farben company, the chemical cartel that grew out of the German dyestuffs industry.

Comprising some of the most important individual companies in the history of industrial capitalism, the firm has dominated the dyestuffs, chemical and pharmaceutical industries before and during World War II. The companies that grew out of I.G.’s official dissolution after the war—Bayer, Hoechst, BASF, and Agfa continued to be decisive in world markets. Among the many products developed by I.G. or its member companies are: aspirin, heroin, novocain, methadone (originally named Dolophine in honor of Adolph Hitler) and Zyklon B (the poison gas used in the extermination centers of World War II.)

The Thousand-Year Conspiracy – Secret Germany Behind the Mask, by Paul Winkler, 1943
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...

Paul Winkler’s The Thousand-Year Conspiracy traces the origins of German chauvinism to the ascent of the Teutonic Knights within Germanic society, following the Papal Bull of Rimini and the Knights’ military defeat of the Hanseatic League. Winkler labels the enablers of the dark side of the German character “Prusso-Teutonics” and notes that, in their pursuit of Pan-German goals, the “Prusso-Teutonics” do not hesitate to deal in a cynical and ruthless manner with their own citizens. Of particular note for contemporary Americans is Winkler’s account of the deliberate, Machiavellian manipulation of the German economy by Hjalmar “Horace Greeley” Schacht, the American-born financier who eventually became the finance minister of the Third Reich.

Says Emory,

Take note of Winkler’s account of how Schacht re-structured the German economy with an eye to—among other things—driving the citizenry to such a point of hysteria that they would willingly follow the likes of Hitler. Compare Winkler’s analysis with what is taking place today in the United States.

Falange – The Axis Secret Army in the Americas by Allan Chase, 1943
Part I www.spitfirelist.com... Part II [url=] www.spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
[url=] www.spitfirelist.com...

In order to utilize Spain’s geopolitical influence as a tool for Nazi imperial designs, the Third Reich turned to General Wilhelm von Faupel and his Ibero-American Institute. Von Faupel was a bitter opponent of the Weimar Republic, and accepted the Nazis as the antidote to German democracy.
Known as an “I.G. General” for his links to the I.G. Farben company, von Faupel also maintained close ties to the powerful Thyssen interests which, like Farben, were the powers that backed Hitler. [The Bush family were also closely linked to the Thyssens.

The Devil’s Chemists – 24 Conspirators of the International Farben Cartel Who Manufacture Wars by Josiah E. DuBois, Jr., 1952
Part I www.spitfirelist.com... Part II [url=] www.spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...

One cannot understand the history of the 20th century without understanding the role played in world events of the time by the I.G. Farben company, the chemical cartel that grew out of the German dyestuffs industry. Comprising some of the most important individual companies in the history of industrial capitalism, the firm has dominated the dyestuffs, chemical and pharmaceutical industries before and during World War II. The companies that grew out of I.G.’s official dissolution after the war—Bayer, Hoechst, BASF, and Agfa continued to be decisive in world markets. Among the many products developed by I.G. or its member companies are aspirin, heroin, Novocain, methadone (originally named Dolophine in honor of Adolph Hitler) and Zyklon B (the poison gas used in the extermination centers of World War II.)

Emory says,

Like Ambruster’s Treason’s Peace, Josiah DuBois’s The Devil’s Chemists highlights how the I.G. Farben chemical firm manipulated trade relationships to the advantage of the Third Reich. In addition, the book illustrates how corporations, businessmen and politicians beholden unto the firm’s non-German cartel partners assisted that manipulation, as well as the postwar rehabilitation and exoneration of both I.G. and its most important personnel. DuBois emphasizes the damage done to America’s international credibility by its postwar preservation of I.G. Farben and other Axis/fascist cartels.

CT: Today, look how Halleburton (co-directed by Fed directors) and G.W. Bush’s Carlyle Group work together to monopolize the creation of war destroying everything and everyone, the repression of the people domestically and abroad, and the rebuilding of everything after they destroy it. It’s done primarily with (Y)OUR TAX MONEY, BUT they keep all the profits.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
You’ll notice in the excerpt that Manning was allowed access to OSS Secret Files. As Dulles as I recall was a senior official in OSS (as well as later head of CIA, and also a traitor and triple agent representing as an attorney Schroder bank and the Bank-of-England/Fed private shareholders in their war against the people of America, Germany, Russia, Japan, Italy, France and more …and, Dulles was a Bill Donovan protégé …it may be that Manning in the preface is thanking Dulles for allowing him access to the OSS files.

Some of the files that Manning was given access to have since been declassified, and they refer to Himmler not Bormann. I recommend that you visit the CIA archive, it has extensive on-line resources of declassified files...probably not complete.

From what I gathered from the Acknowledgement of Dulles was not that it was a passing thanks for giving access to the records, it was a thanks for assuring him that he was on the right track. This in some way exonerates Manning and places the responsibility on Dulles for deflecting the investigation. I have been looking for an origin to the Bormann/money rumours for some time and I will indeed read the entire book (still working my way through it now) as it is fascinating the lengths that the Allies went to deflect attention. I am in no way saying that Bormann was not involved but I am very doubtful that he was, not with the money at least. There is still very much of interest here though, but we can address that later in greater detail.

As you state Dulles is not to be trusted, this is the man after all who convinced his old pal John J McCloy that a lone gunman was entirely responsible for the JFK assassination when they both sat on the Warren Commission. I suspect that, at the very least Manning was used by Dulles.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
....Manning’s investigation of Bormann, Odessa, Nazi flight capital, and so on.

Odessa was not a real organisation, it was invented by Frederick Forsyth for his 1972 novel, The Odessa File. Like much of Forsyth's work though it does have basis in fact, there were (it has been firmly established) a number of organisations that assisted members of the SS in their escape from Europe and who negotiated terms of surrender on their behalf. Forsyth for the sake of 'the story' brought them together under a single organisation.

Gudrun Himmler, a life long campaigner for the fair treatment of ex-SS members has raised and directed funds to help individuals and their families with connections to the SS. The Vatican unofficially assisted many to escape, disguised as Priests and other members of the clergy, the South America. These operations were mainly under Alois Hundal. The Red Cross has similarly been implicated in providing passports and visas to SS.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Please read the info in this post.
www.spitfirelist.com...
From Dave Emory’s description:

The seminal work on the Bormann Organization was done by the late Paul Manning, who published a book which sourced captured Third Reich documents, the files of the OSS (America’s World War II civilian intelligence agency and predecessor of the CIA), FBI files and British Intelligence sources.

It should be noted that the end of the cold war has released a significant amount of data that directly contradicts a great deal of the histories written prior to 1990. These records are still largely untapped, but it is slowly expanding our knowledge as historians gain access. As I am sure you have realised, neither British or US intelligence services can be relied up on. Much time and effort has been expended up on muddying the waters. It should be noted that the majority of those who wrote histories of the WW2 from the British end were employed during the war in SIS - Basil Liddle-Hart, MRD Foot, FW Winterbotham, Hugh Trevor-Roper and as I mentioned previously, EH Cookridge (amongst others) were considered the Pre-eminent authorites on WW2, all of them worked for one faction or another of SIS and their work reflects those priorities.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Well, if Bormann was in control of post-war Nazi activities, I’ll have to see what Himmler’s roles were, if any, on the assassination attempts on Hitler, and the purging of the Nazi party by Hitler (maybe you know about that and can tell me … or, maybe I can respond to that at the end of this post).

I will address this in relation to your later post.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Also, please take a look at this, if you’d be so kind to read the whole reference, not just the excerpt quoted below as an external source:
FTR-145 spitfirelist.com... Paul's Correspondence with Other Journalists 3/21/99
According to Dave Emory’s reading of Manning:

Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile (Hardcover, Lyle Stuart 1981.) Anticipating the defeat of the Third Reich, Reichsleiter Martin Bormann set up 750 corporations in neutral countries, primed as vehicles to receive the liquid wealth of Germany. This capital flight was effectively realized. An organizational genius and the real power behind Hitler, Bormann successfully fled Europe for South America and administered a "Reich in Exile" in the years since the war. With the SS as an enforcement arm, former Gestapo chief General Heinrich Mueller as security director, the 750 corporations as a base of economic power and the willing silence and cooperation of the Western Allies, Bormann guided his Organization to a position of consummate power.

Again this is attributing responsibilities to Bormann that were in fact Himmlers. Very interesting and I am intrigued as to why Dulles would want to do that. I wonder if he was worried that Bormann was alive and there was an attempt to taint him...not really sure on that. But it seems the British had similar concerns about Himmler - that he had in fact survived. There have been similar attempts to resurrect Mueller too, not least of all a highly fictious set of interviews, which are laughable at best and show a limited knowledge of the WW2 arena which Mueller himself certainly wouldn't have as head of the Gestapo.

It is possible that Bormann escaped to South America, I feel that given a number of factors, it is more likely that he escaped to the Soviet Union - if he escaped at all. I noted that Manning described him as being 31 years of age at the time of the fall of Berlin. He was in fact at least 45 and not in peak physical conditions due to his corpulent lifestyle, it is feasible that he surrendered to Red Army forces, it is feasible that he died, it is not particularly feasible that he escaped Berlin on his own devices.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

... the role of the Bormann Organization in the so-called "Economic Miracle;" the post-war recovery of the West German economy; acknowledgement by Simon Weisenthal's top investigator that General Heinrich Mueller commanded the best intelligence organization in the world from his position as director of security for the Organization; Heinrich Mueller's role in setting up Mohammer Khadafy's secret service; Mueller's skillful discreditation of author Ladislas Farago (author of Aftermath); Manning's devastating rebuttal of criticism directed at his book by an L.A. Times reviewer and his unsuccessful attempts to obtain an interview with Bormann himself, despite sustained communication with both Mueller and Bormann.

This is interesting. Mueller is fully promoted here..the Gestapo was by no means the best intelligence organisation in the world. It was a relatively small body of men that relied entirely on the reports of civilians. Nazi propaganda certainly inflated their powers and reach, but Mueller would have known to the contrary. This is why it stinks.

Now don’t get me wrong, I know that the SS were heavily involved in post-war operations in the middle-east, as well as South America, Africa and Indo-China – but I doubt very much that Mueller had anything to do with it for very simple reasons. 1) He was not that valuable an asset, that is, he had no special abilities or knowledge (that would aid him in this type of work.) 2) Given his limited abilities combined with his notoriety, he was a greater liability than he was a benefit, there were any number of men who could have done what Mueller is alledged to have done with much less famous names. People that their so-called ‘enemy’ didn’t even know about.

Mueller did have some alliance to Bormann though, so it is possible, but I would say unlikely. The more I read the more I am convinced that Manning’s book is disinfo, but I am still highly intrigued as to the ‘Why’.

The Simon Weisanthal centre could bear some scrutiny though as he is the only other person to give credence to ‘Odessa’, I read his biography many years ago and he was somewhat of a man possessed, but what is interesting is that Arnold Swartzenegger, used the centre to check on his father’s ‘Nazi Past’, they incidently cleared him…could the Wiesanthal Centre be a front???? It doesn’t jar too much in my mind I am sad to admit.

I am not going to address Bormann's involvement directly at this point, I think that I have expressed my opinion and that is all I can do. If you are interested, you need to bring your reading up to date, and then form your own opinion.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
www.americanciviliancounter-terroristmanual.4t.com

Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and Ernst Kalterbrunner met around a conference table. Ernst Kalterbrunner was Chief of Sicherheitdienst Security Service Special Operations Division of SS. Hitler, Himmler, and Kalterbrunner discussed options ...agreed poison gas should be used ... the fastest and best way to kill large numbers of people.

Kaltenbrunner would not have been involved in discussions of this level, his opinion would not have counted and he would not have been privy to this information. Kaltenbrunner was tried at Nuremberg and no effort was made to keep him quiet, he was therefore not an asset of any of the organisations that we are discussing. He was allowed to hang.

He did succeed Heydrich as head of RSHA, but he was a 'can do'. He is implicated in a number of assassinations and was part of the intimidation brigades who prepared Austria for the Anschluss. He was in short a psychopathic thug and would not have been trusted with high level secrets. Most importantly though, at the time that these discussions took place, Reinhard Heydrich was still head of RSHA (he would have been trusted by Hitler and Himmler). Additionally there is no record, anywhere that I know of, of such a meeting taking place with Hitler present. Himmler did though enter into such discussions with Bach-Zewelski.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
This doesn’t appear to be helpful either from the same source:

Reinhard continued his story. “Dec. 1943, I reached the same conclusion as Bormann, Schacht, Skorzeny, and Himmler. Germany was losing the war. There was nothing we could do to stop it. We discussed coming defeat. I told close friends, I considered the war was lost. We began thinking of the future, to think ahead, plan for the coming catastrophe. There would be a place for Germany ...in a Europe re-arming for defense, against Communism.

Again, I'll leave Bormann to one side for now. Schacht and Himmler, definate, clear and accountable connections there. Skorzeny though, who seems to get blamed for a great deal, would again not have been involved or privy to these discussions. Otto Skorzeny was another 'can do' and specialised on various forms of thuggery and assassinations. He is though of interest. He set up and operated a number of post-war mercenary groups and not long before his death, he founded the Palladin Group.

It is in mercenary groups that most of the operational former SS found themselves post-war - working for private interests, the British, the US and France amongst others. They were of little use for anything else, they had been trained as murderers, they had been named as members of a criminal organisations at Nuremberg - to say they were without too many choices is an understatement.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Nor, is this helpful, “I” refers to Gehlen speaking in the historical novel:

After Admiral Wilhelm Canaris was purged, SS absorbed his Abwehr intelligence service. I became Nazi Germany’s top intelligence officer.

This is important...Gehlen had no connection to the SS. He was not even remotely connected to the SS other than in his capacity as head of OKH intelligence as it related to FHO. He would therefore have had some operational contact with units of the Waffen SS in regard to Barbarossa. Gehlen's wartime responsibilities were limited to providing strategic and tactical intelligence to the Heere (Army). This is not the same as SIS, that was firmly under the control of Himmler's SS. If you need me to clarify that further let me know. (There is much more to discuss on Canaris but I am trying to work through your posts first)

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Nor this from the same source (but soon I’ll have here all I know about Himmler)”

June 1943, Gestapo Chief Heinrich Himmler, and Major General of SS Police Katzmann, issued orders to dig up and burn corpses of civilians and war prisoners tortured to death or machine-gunned near Lvov.

If you Google Aktion 1005 you will obtain further information on this - again Katzmann would not have be privy to anything other than issuing orders on Himmler's behalf (I recommend that you read up on the Fuhrer Prinzip to understand the power structure of Nazi Germany) - Himmler assigned Paul Blobel (responsible for commanding the massacre at Babi Yar that murdered 33, 700+ Jewish men, women and children over a 36 hour period) the task of retracing the path of the Waffen SS and Einsatzgruppen, exhuming the mass graves (indluding those at Treblinka) and disposing of as much of the evidence as possible. If you do a search on Blobel I am sure the transcripts of his testimony are available on-line.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Here, same source, I’m quoting myself again

Leaders of the postwar underground Nazi Officers Corps were officers, and non-commissioned officers of SS regiments, picked to be the inner guard of German Military Supreme Command.

This is confusing. You need to understand the power structure of Nazi Germany and the number of seperate, and competing factions. Military and SS are two entirely seperate groups - independent of each other in their entirety - except as mentioned above in my comments relating to Gehlen, where they were used in military campaigns. As far as SIS and home security they came entirely under Himmler and the two groups hated each other. Himmler had NO friends in the Wehrmacht, indeed he wasn't even respected by the leaders of the Waffen-SS who were involved in actual warfare (as opposed to murdering civilians). Sepp Dietrich refused to even shake his hand and would make himself scarce on planned visits by Himmler. He loathed Himmler with a vengeance. The Wehrmacht had an even lower opinion of Himmler.

Additionally, the Nazi Party was also a separate entity to the SS and the Wehrmacht. There are very few members of the Wehrmacht who held party membership, and there are very, very few who had any affiliation with the SS.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Since June 1934, with the purge in the Nazi Party of those officers loyal to Roehm, ordinary Nazi Party members were excluded from joining SS. SS was only for fanatical Nazi Party members. Chief of Schutzstaffel Protective Echelon and Plenipotentiary General of Third Reich Heinrich Himmler reorganized SS into a Nazi military elite. The uniform of the SS was re-cut, to look like Kaiser cavalry elite guard, the Death’s Head Hussars. Senior SS officers were recruited from General Staff ruling families ...so, German industrialists, financiers, military men and Junkers ...became SS officers.

This is again confusing and I will try and clarify. The Roehm purge was organized by Himmler, Goering and Goebbels – each for their own reasons. The Reichswehr assisted, as the SA was promoted (by the above) as being a threat to them. Heydrich manufactured much of the evidence against Roehm and the SA, and given his position of trust with Hitler was given the task of convincing Hitler of the ‘urgency’ of dealing with his friend Roehm. The purge was complete and not isolated to the SA leadership. Those who represented a major threat to Hitler’s leadership were included, although they represented a greater threat to Himmler and Goering’s status. Gregor Strasser was removed as was Schleichter. Both these men were members of the Thulist movement and were integral in Hitler’s early rise to prominence. There were many others. The best write up I have come across of the purge is from Guido Knopp’s SS: A warning from History, but there are a number of other books that deal with it. Goebbel’s diaries are highly insightful.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
This passage from my book (same source) appears based on Eustace Mullins Secrets of the Federal Reserve, so I think you may have that to read as well as The Secret War Against the Jews, and the Manning book on Bormann … to help answer your question:

Allen became a director of J. Henry Schroder Co. Allen would become Wartime Chief of Office of Strategic Services intelligence operations, in Bern Switzerland … Nazi Baron Kurt von Schroder acted as the conduit for IT&T money funneled to Heinrich Himmler’s SS organization in 1944, while World War II was in progress, and United States was at war with Germany.

Absolutely no questions here, all can be verified – apart from the Bormann connection. Could it be that the Bormann story was fabricated to deflect from the veracity of Mullin’s work? I am much more inclined to believe that I have to admit.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
So, let me ask you a question you can perhaps help me to understand. Since Manning basically revealed the existence of Odessa (the smuggling of Nazi & SS & German military personnel and war booty) out of post-war Europe to safehavens … the question being...

…was there a conflict between Himmler and Bormann as to who should be running the post-war Nazi effort in South America, the U.S. (under Gehlen’s province) and the rest of the world?

What interests me is that Bormann and Himmler did have a rather unlikely ‘friendship’. What you need to understand is that the money that flowed out of Germany, in the most part, flowed back again – in addition and not including the funds received as part of the Marshal Plan. However, it is known that Himmler had numerous personal accounts where he deposited his own war time profits, namely the $1 million per year he received from his ‘Circle of Friends’ for his ‘support’ – he had many other sources of income too. His relationship with Bormann is odd, but given the disdain with which they were both treated (Bormann was referred to as the ‘Brown Eminence’ by Goebbels and Goering for his favouring the brown shirt and his therefore obvious allegiance to the more socialist elements of the Nazi Party) within the Nazi hierarchy it could be seen as mutually beneficial that they remained in touch. Their families mixed socially (Bormann’s children and wife even paid at least one visit to Himmler’s mistresses and their children’s home), but this could have more to do with their mutual isolation as anything else. They both had access to Hitler and they both sought to retain the power that that gave them.

Bormann could only have gained access to Nazi party funds, these were pretty much spent by the end of the war – the coffers were empty. The SS funds and those industrialists who were with the ‘Circle’ could only have been accessed by Bormann via Himmler. No matter how close they were I find it very doubtful, given both their characters that this would have happened. So again I err on the side of Bormann being used as rouse.

reply to post by counterterrorist


I have run out of time for now, but I will get back to replies 3, 4 and 5 later today...I want to dig out some quotes for you as well. I apologise for taking so long over this but I don't have a great deal of time at the moment, you've caught me at a bad time and I am trying to read as many of your sources as thoroughly as I can which further takes time. I should get back on this evening and I will (hopefully) finish up then.

All the best

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Jan. 24 1943, in Casablanca Roosevelt and Churchill demand Germany surrender and Europe be de-Nazified. General Staff ruling families split in two factions …one led by Heinrich Himmler …the other, by Martin Bormann.
Heinrich Himmler was Chief of Schutzstaffel SS, the core of the Nazi party ...the ‘Black Shirts’, that became Hitler’s bodyguard in the late 1920’s. Schutzstaffel SS was the most powerful Nazi political institution. Himmler was loyal to Hitler.
July 20 1944, a military coup on Hitler’s life failed. Hitler was wounded, but not killed. In retaliation, SS Leader Heinrich Himmler seized control, arrested seven thousand troops, executing 5,000. Himmler and his SS became the remaining organ of the Nazi Party.

Now it is entirely up to you whether you pursue the Bormann angle, I am developing a growing convinction that it is a false flag, but I do remain open minded to clear evidence to the contrary. Certain elements of the funkspiel operations at the time of Barbarossa, which include Mueller’s involvement do mean that there are questions in my mind…but for the purposes of this discussion I think that Bormann is irrelevant. That is my opinion and I have no wish to force it as it would only detract from the more tangible elements of this discussion.

This though is an interesting article, not least of all because it appears on the Wallenberg website, who we will get to shortly, claiming that Bormann was harboured not in South America but in England!!! Once again though, it is really up to you to form your own opinion.

www.raoulwallenberg.net.../articles/james-bond-nabs-martin-bormann.946.htm

I am open to suggestions about Bormann, simply not in connection to money for the reasons I have described previously and for the fact that I cannot see what he would have brought to the negotiating table otherwise. He may have been ‘connected’ but apart from his knowledge of the holocaust operations he does not hold any information of interest to the Allies (and industrialists/Financiers), and in that context, they would have wanted him dead not alive and there for me is his only similarity to Himmler. Although given his activities with the funkspiel operations it could be that during the war he was involved in intelligence operations that were counter to Germany (or seemingly so at least), it is feasible that he could have been a British or a Soviet asset in that context.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
There you go, we’re back to your original observation, and quotes by jockeying sources, one says “Himmler said it” the other says “Bormann said it”.
Now, was Himmler or Bormann supported by the Duke of Windsor, the Queen’s relative in Britain … by both of them, and, by both the Duke and Queen. What we may come down to is conflicting intelligences services and conflicting disinformation campaigns … would I expect less? …would you?

Neither. Hitler had, largely due to the ineptitude of von Ribbentrop, a limited knowledge of English social and political structure. In short he did not understand the nature of a constitutional monarchy and that the monarch had no real power. Hitler attempted to offer the Duke of Windsor, who abdicated the throne to marry Wallis Simpson, the throne of England in return for his assistance and public support. This failed for any number of reasons, most pertinently, due to the fact that the Windsor’s were only interested in money and supporting their social life. Work, in any form, was a anathema to them both.

However, there were factions within Britain who were supportive of an alliance with Germany, and Hitler himself very much wanted that, seeing us as natural partners in ruling Europe – as he describes in Mein Kampf, Hitler saw Britain and Germany as ‘walking side by side’. These factions sought to gain a vote of no confidence against Churchill, which would pave the way for peace with Germany. Churchill though was a formidable opponent and was well aware of these murmurings, he set up an intelligence operation to draw them in, which was in part behind Hess’s flight to Scotland in May 1941, but which ultimately resulted in Hitler’s attack on Russia (and deflection away from the Middle-East, Churchill’s primary concern). The operation was considered so secret that it was not given an official designation, but has been given the name ‘Operation HHHH’ since (the H’s represent Hitler, Hess, Haushofer and Hoare).

That said, the Royal family did make indirect investments in Nazi Germany, the depth of their knowledge of what they were investing in is questionable and unlikely to ever be addressed conclusively. It is known that they made payments to Enskilda Bank (owned by the Wallenbergs) which were then used to make investments in Germany, most notably in Bosch. These investments were heavily cloaked at the end of the war by Enskilda. Enskilda was the main conduit at the end of the war for investors in Germany, they cloaked the German interests of both British and US investors. So much for neutrality.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
My book, again: Deputy Fuehrer and Head of the Nazi Party Martin Bormann was Hitler’s close friend …and held superior rank to Himmler. Bormann was Hitler’s link to the industrial and financial cartels running the Nazi economy. Bormann was a close friend to Hermann Schmitz. Hermann Schmitz was Chief Executive of I.G. Farben. I. G. Farben was Nazi Germany’s wealthiest industrial power.

Bormann did not outrank Himmler as such, technically but not practically (there is a distinction). Himmler as Reichsfuhrer SS was responsible for security, intelligence and policing in Germany, the occupied territories and (with the absorbtion of the Abwehr) international intelligence. Bormann was deputy Fuehrer, and head of the Nazi party. Himmler received his orders from Hitler, either directly or via Bormann, Bormann did not have authority over Himmler himself, only as Hitler’s delegate. However, Bormann did increasingly limit access to Hitler (for a number of reasons) and it is known that on matters relating to the ‘Final Solution’ Himmler increasingly received his orders from Bormann, especially in the latter stages. Additonally, Bormann was appointed to a ‘Council of 3’ along with Hans Lammers and Wilhelm Keitel – to oversee ‘domestic matters’ in Hitler’s absence (much to Goebbels discomfort). Hitler was rarely in Berlin after 1941, basing himself at his ‘Wolf’s Lair’ in Eastern Prussian from where he directed the war effort. Bormann, no doubt dominated the council, neither Lammers or Keitel being noted for their strength of character, and it is probably that Bormann would have issued directive to the Himmler in relation to matters pertaining to Germany.

I know of no connection between Schmitz and Bormann (which is not to say it doesn’t exist just that I do not know of any). Schmitz was president of the board of American IG Farben. This is an excellent article on IG and well worth a read. I can recommend a number of books which cover IG’s involvement in financing Hitler, their utilization of concentration camp inmates and of their monopolies agreements with the US (particularly Standard Oil in terms of synthetic oil and rubber patents) if you are interested. There is quite a large body of work that has been written on this subject, largely due to the courts cases both before and after US involvement in WW2.

reformed-theology.org...

The information that comes after this in your post gets a bit more complex (and interesting from my point of view), so I will break up my response to your post here. What I do need to know, you say the following information comes from your book – do you mean the book you wrote or the John Loftus book? It is pretty widely established knowledge and I see little benefit in my adding my comments to it. I really think you would do better with this information if you were to re-word it and provide better context to the events you allude to. In it’s current form it is a bit exclusive/confusing and will mean nothing to most, which is a shame.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
My book, again:
… Karl Langbehn…Gaevernitz…Walter Schellenberg….U.S. Military Attache in Bern, Brigadier General Barnwell Legge.

Brigadier General Legge sent a letter to Allen Dulles. ‘Gaevernitz has rendered most valuable service, by gaining contact with prominent German industrialists and business men who visited Switzerland. German Counsel at Geneva is Dr. Wolfgang Krauel. Dr. Krauel has a list of former Canaris men in Switzerland ...including Hans-Bernd Gisevius, Max von Engelbrechten, and Graf Auersperg von der Muhle. Canaris sent these men to Switzerland to make contact with the Americans. Canaris ordered them to report to Gero von Gaevernitz. Canaris is worried about the fall of the Reich. He wants them to work together on the Christian West Plan to unite the U.S. and Nazi Germany together against Soviet Russia.

This is ALL great stuff but as I said I would really like you to write it out for the benefit of those who may not know the connections and background. Canaris as this point had affiliated himself to Himmler, Himmler was, in the process of setting him up of course.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Years later, an intimate of Canaris cabled congratulations to Allen Dulles on his new job as CIA director. ‘I have known since 1942, how highly Canaris esteemed you. Even at that time, Canaris ordered me to align myself with you ...as soon as possible. I am in touch with one of your most capable co-workers, through a very clever banker. I was able to obtain from your staff, without any difficulty, information very important for us. I would prefer to say nothing more about this now,’ the cable said.

I am somewhat doubtful of this, it doesn’t sound much like Canaris. Canaris did not esteem anyone, he was a fascinating man but he was the epitome of the ‘secret agent’, something that Dulles was not. When Dulles told Donovan that he had been appointed head of CIA laughed (he also refused to recommend him for the post). As the history we are discussing proves the US side of things was highly leaky and Dulles’ comings and going in Berne are very well documented – he was not a very ‘secret’ agent!!! Canaris on the other hand was brilliant at his chosen profession. Under Canaris, the Abwehr operated one of the most extensive foreign espionage networks ever created – in the US. His esteem for Dulles was not as one ‘spook’ to another, but he would have known that he was a man who could be pandered to and bought for the right price.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
I need to paraphrase myself (same source):
SD Amt VI International Affairs Chief Schellenberg carefully watched attempts to turn Gero. Which faction of the Nazis was Gaevernitz loyal to? …to Canaris? …to Himmler? …was he loyal to the British? …which faction? …to the U.S.? …which ruling families? Dulles didn’t care. Neither did Gaevernitz. Gaevernitz, like Dulles, wanted to promote their own financial portfolios above all political considerations -- the point of war, in the first place. Gero sized up Hermann Schmitz. “Things are going well. Transmare (corp) gave Gero a cover and commercial references. Allen Dulles interacted w/ Hans-Bernd Gisevius. There are several peace initiatives coming at me ... to present to the U.S. ... from opposing Nazi groups …some from Abwehr activists …some from pessimistic SS officers, he said. Hans-Bernd Gisevius agreed. Hans was Sonderfuehrer in the SS ...a reactionary, tied financially to the Lutheran Synod, instrumental in recruiting a powerful faction of the Nazi Party in 1931-1933. Gisevius was a Gestapo lawyer, when Admiral Canaris appointed him Zurich Vice-Consul. Canaris made Hans, his representative to Madam Halina Szymanska, a Polish intelligence ‘cut-out’. Canaris’ military intelligence used Szymanska to leak information to Van Den Heuvel, and the American Special Intelligence Service.

I would really like to see you expand up on this as I am unsure of what you are implying. Von Gaevernitz was official aide to Dulles (he was German-American, he was also a bi-sexual which may have been Dulles means of connecting with Canaris???).

Originally posted by counterterrorist
I'll quote me from my book (see above) & credit the (above) sources.

Dulles met often with Hans in Hans’ drawing room at 23 Herrengasse. Dulles represented himself ...as President Roosevelt’s personal representative. Hans agreed, he’d keep Dulles informed on plots against Hitler’s life. Dulles said, the U.S. and Germany would benefit when he briefed Washington on Canaris’ version of the Christian West concept Hans had already explained to Dulles. Gisevius said, he'd let security expert Rudolph Diels know, that Rudolph would fill-in Hjalmar Schacht. Schacht will fill in Admiral Canaris.

Again can you clarify and expand on this. Dulles lived at 23 Herrengasse, not Gisevius incidently. I am somewhat doubtful that Diels would be in any position to inform Schacht of anything either – Goering maybe, but Diels was persona non grata otherwise. Canaris could have been briefed by Schacht, do you have anything else on that relationship?

I’m struggling to comment on the rest without actually re-writing it, which I do not want to do. I recommend that study Schellenberg and his post-war activities. He was a close affiliate of Canaris, as was Reinhard Heydrich. I realise that you are posting this information to counter holocaust denial but I really suggest that, as a writer, you attempt to put it into a fuller and cohesive form. You would also benefit from examining Schacht and his relationships in detail, especially his British connections. I do not know how you could write what you have without comprehending the information, it is an amazing feat and I congratulate you. However, for the purposes that you have presented the information here as a rebuttal, to the deniers, you really should try and make it accessible to a wider audience as I think that there are only a few of us who will understand the wider implications. I would also consider examining the 20 July 1944 plot in greater detail, I think you will find it will open your eyes to many things.

Thank you for taking the time to assist me and do not hesitate to U2U me if I can return the service. I must though get my act together though and finish part five on my own thread (I am easily distracted, I could talk about the Nazis and WW2 all day given the chance).

All the best and I wish you well.

Edit to add: PS I haven't forgotten about the thread I asked you to start, I just got distracted here I'm afraid. I will get to it as I think that is a fascinating subject but I'm digging around for a few things in relation to that.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by KilgoreTrout]

reply to KilgoreTrout (1-of-9)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

You say,

Odessa was not a real organization, it was invented by Frederick Forsyth for his 1972 novel, The Odessa File.

You favor the Himmler version of history. I favor the Bormann version.

I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist. ...or, if they are important.

I am concerned making people aware that the threat of 2012 is trace-able directly to the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate that funds al Qaeda and all the other para-military terrorist operatives, owns all the banks, own all the oil companies, raises food prices, poisons food and wants to eliminate 90% of humanity -- and also funded the Nazis, Russians, Americans, British, Arabs, Israeli's Vietcong and so forth to bring about 2012.

Operation rat line part 1 www.youtube.com...


I really don’t have time to ‘read-up’ on the historical workings of the Nazi Party, I am only too aware of ongoing Nazi activity from 1923 to 2012. I’m not too concerned with who said what. Or when. Nothing personal … just not my thing.

Have you read the most recent anti-nazi/anti-neo-nazi books by Loftus, Simpson and so on? …if so, you would be totally familiar with the documentation of Odessa.

Operation rat line part 2 www.youtube.com...


This whole Nazi investigation stuff leaves me cold and who said what simply doesn’t matter to me in terms of being an activist TODAY in identifying and holding responsible those money-issuing families currently waging 2012 against us, which is the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate in an effort to stop 2012.

Regrettably, I haven't had time to read your total response yet I just skimmed through it; however, a few things caught my mind.

Operation rat line part 3 www.youtube.com...

I may be out of touch for about 5-10 days as I've spent so much time on ATS I'm a week behind on some important work.

Here’s Emory, here’s Manning, here’s Bormann, here’s Loftus … that’s the most I can do to shed some light. I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist(ed) or how important they may or may not be.

I’ve provided this radio broadcast urls because they’re free and you don’t have to buy – or read -- the books that contain the declassified info. First,
Here’s a few 1-2 min videos of Emory speaking: ftrsummary.blogspot.com...

Here’s his broadcasts, that can be downloaded (see FTRs, below) wfmu.org...
wfmu.org...
http ://wfmu. org/playlists/DX

For those without Loftus' books, The Secret War Against the Jews; and, The Unholy Trinity ...

US energy companies were secretly negotiating with the Taliban
Here’s John Loftus’s website www.john-loftus.com... It always has a bunch of recently declassified documents, for example, stuff like this, too

A captured Al Qaida document reveals that US energy companies were secretly negotiating with the Taliban to build a pipeline. The document was obtained by the FBI but was not allowed to be shared with other agencies in order to protect Enron. Multiple sources confirm that American law enforcement agencies were deliberately kept in the dark and systematically prevented from connecting the dots before 9/11 in order to aid Enron’s secret and immoral Taliban negotiations.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 2-of-9)

(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Here's some of Dave Emory's free radio interviews of John:
FTR-145 wfmu.org... Paul Manning's Correspondence with Other Journalists 3/21/99
According to Emory:

Anticipating the defeat of the Third Reich, Reichsleiter Martin Bormann set up 750 corporations in neutral countries, primed as vehicles to receive the liquid wealth of Germany.

According to Emory, these corporations in effect constitute the NWO. I might add, under the umbrella of the City of London Bankers that direct the Bank of England and own & direct the Fed, Bundesbank, etc.

Nazi money trail heats up after 50 years.
FTR-305 Description - www.spitfirelist.com... Radio program – wfmu.org... The Bormann Organization June 1997. According to Emory,

The broadcast begins with discussion of the resumption of long-dormant investigations of the Nazi money trail created as the Third Reich siphoned off its wealth, in an effort to politically survive the inevitability of military defeat. ("Nazi Money Trail Heats Up after 50 Years" by Greg Steinmetz; Wall Street Journal; 4/28/97; p. A1.)

FTR-332 www.spitfirelist.com... Radio program – wfmu.org... “B” as in Bush, “B” as in Bormann, “B” as in Von Bolschwing 10/21/2001
According to Emory,

Otto von Bolschwing, one of the principal officers in administering Hitler’s liquidation of the Jews. (For more about Von Bolschwing, see RFA#’s 3, 30, as well as FTR#’s 180, 216, 221, 222.) In addition to his own significance, Von Bolschwing is noteworthy because Helene van Damm (a protégé of Von Bolschwing’s) selected the lists of personnel from which Ronald Reagan’s cabinet appointments were made. It is Mr. Emory’s conviction that the Reagan administrations (and the administrations of both Georges Bush) are fronts for the “Underground Reich” and the remarkable and deadly Bormann organization

Here’s Loftus on radio for you to listen to:
FTR-618 Radio program – wfmu.org... Veterans' Day Interview with John Loftus 11/11/07 According to Dave E.

Program Highlights Include: Discussion of John’s new online radio program; Richard Nixon’s participation in the Crusade For Freedom; Ronald Reagan’s participation in the Crusade For Freedom; William Casey’s participation in the Crusade For Freedom; the elder George Bush’s involvement with the Crusade For Freedom milieu and his installation of the Nazis as a permanent part of the Republican Party; the links of GOP lobbyist Grover Norquist to the terrorist funding apparatus busted on 3/20/2002; Karl Rove’s links to the same terror-funding milieu.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 3-of-9)

(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Do you agree that “Nazi” means “agents of the interlocking directorate of the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc …or do you not agree?

You said,

I suspect that, at the very least Manning was used by Dulles.

To what ends do you think Manning was ‘used’ by Dulles? To allow people to think Bormann & Odessa hid in South America and not England. BUT Dulles representing the USA- Fed and Philby representing City of London’s the Bank of England were PARTNERS … so it makes no difference playing who’s hiding where.

And you say,

Gudrun Himmler, a life long campaigner for the fair treatment of ex-SS members has raised and directed funds to help individuals and their families with connections to the SS. The Vatican unofficially assisted many to escape, disguised as Priests and other members of the clergy, the South America. These operations were mainly under Alois Hundal.

Well, Hundal was a bishop and presumably, as you say, may have helped Rauff escape. Who was Rauff? According to
www.telusplanet.net...

Walter Rauff , perfected the mobile gas van that is used in the death of 100,000 peoples, mostly eastern European women and children. Walter Rauff was a friend of Bishop Hudal in 1943. Monsignor Don Giuseppe Bicchierai would shelter Rauff in the convents of the Holy See.

Is Rauff not the subject of this video: Confronting Nazi legacy in Argentia
www.youtube.com...
http: //www. Youtube .com /watch?v=taGuLzH_9Jc



[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 4-of-9)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’
THE SECRET AMBER ROOM
San Jose Mercury News, 4/28/2000, FTR#234 [url=]http://www.spitfirelist.com/f234.html[url]details a young German’s accidental and terrifying encounter with the Bormann outfit. Emory

1. As part of a growing rapprochement with Russia, Germany recently returned pieces of a priceless work of art known as the Amber Room. (San Jose Mercury News, 4/28/2000, p. 22A) Presented by Prussian King Frederick William to Czar Peter the Great, the Amber Room was plundered by German troops during World War II and subsequently disappeared. Considered priceless, the amber sculptures have been the object of a decades-long search by art experts, the KGB and what Mr. Emory calls “the Underground Reich.” (See FTR#180.) This broadcast sets forth an account of the Bormann group's search for the Amber Room, set forth by Frank Brandenburg, a young German who infiltrated the Underground Reich elements in Germany. (Quest: Searching for the Truth of Germany's Nazi Past, Ib Melchior and Frank Brandenburg, Presidio Press, copyright 1990, ISBN 0-89141-397-9.) (For more on the Bormann group, the economic component of a Third Reich gone underground, see also: FTR# 's 87, 90, 99, 102, 120, 122, 123, 125, 127, 134, 145, 152, 155, 158, 177, 179, 180, 187, 189, 193, 194, 195, 215, 216, 218, 219, 224, 226, 232, 233.)

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 5-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Here’s some more of Emory interview Loftus you might find interesting.

According to Loftus,

There are twenty vaults underground and each vault is one acre in size.

FTR-473 scroll down a page or so… www.spitfirelist.com...
John Loftus on the Arab-Nazi-Al Qaeda Network 8/22/04 Emory interviews Loftus

When I was working for the Attorney General, I was assigned to do the classified research about the Holocaust, so I went underground to a little town called Suitland, Maryland, right outside Washington, D.C. and that's where the US Government buries its secrets-literally. There are twenty vaults underground and each vault is one acre in size. Anyone see the movie 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'? The last scene of that movie is what the underground vaults are really like,

FTR-406 scroll down a page or so…
www.spitfirelist.com... An Interview with John Loftus 4/13/03

The program begins with an account of the lawsuit that John filed against Sami Al-Arian.

program highlights follow-up to suit —the Operation Green Quest raids of 3/20/2002. As discussed in FTR#357, it was the information provided by John Loftus to federal investigators that precipitated these raids.

In this part of the program, John notes that George W. Bush is in a difficult position. If the investigation were to go as far as it might, Bush would be in the position of seeing his father indicted. (For more about Operation Green Quest, see--among other programs—FTR#’s 356, 357, 359, 366, 382, 389, 390, 395, 400, 404.)

After helping to launch the Operation Green Quest raids, John was instrumental in forging the legal coalition and providing the documentary underpinning for the lawsuit filed against powerful members of the Saudi elite on behalf of the survivors of victims of the 9/11 raids. John is the intelligence adviser to that suit. (For more about that lawsuit, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 386, 389, 390.)

Next, the program highlights the role of Enron in brokering the Caspian Sea pipeline deal across Afghanistan.

FTR-564 scroll down a page or so …
www.spitfirelist.com...
Interview with John Loftus – He Who Tells the Truth Gets Chased Out of Nine Villages 08/13/06
FTR-532 scroll down a page or so…
spitfirelist.com...
Interview with John Loftus about Unholy Trinity and Intelligence Summit 11/06/05
FTR-514 scroll down a page or so…
www.spitfirelist.com... Conversation with John Loftus About the Muslim Brotherhood 06/12/05


To download the book about Bormann in PDF, go to: Manning - PDF
To download the chapters in HTML, go to: www.animalfarm.org...
To read a synopsis on Paul Manning, go to: About Paul Manning www.spitfirelist.com...]
FTR-290 The Japanese Economy and the Kido Organization (the Japanese Bormann Organization) 4/8/2001
For addition nonprofit broadcasts on college radio by Dave Emory you can Dave Emory
[url=]http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX.

Spitfire offers free books online and free program summaries.
spitfirelist.com...


[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 6-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Additionally, you say,

The Simon Wiesenthal centre could bear some scrutiny though as he is the only other person to give credence to ‘Odessa’, I read his biography many years ago and he was somewhat of a man possessed, but what is interesting is that Arnold Swartzenegger, used the centre to check on his father’s ‘Nazi Past’, they incidently cleared him…could the Wiesenthal Centre be a front???? It doesn’t jar too much in my mind I am sad to admit.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
According to Simon Wiesenthal,

By 1944 it was clear that the fortunes of war had turned against Nazi Germany. Many Germans began to anticipate defeat and to plan for that eventuality. On August 10, 1944, a secret meeting of top German industrialists and bankers was held at the Maison Rouge hotel in Strasbourg to devise a means of insuring a secure future for Nazis. Among those attending were coal tycoon Emil Kirdorf, Georg von Schnitzler of IG Farben, Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, steel magnate, Fritz Thyssen, and banker Kurt von Schroeder.

and furthermore:

The Nazis recognized that Germany's assets would fall into the hands of the rapidly approaching enemy if they were not transferred and hidden. The nation's wealth, much of it acquired through the plunder of the nations it invaded and the people the Nazis murdered, had to be transferred so they would be out of judicial reach, but accessible to fund a future movement to resurrect the party and build a new Reich. Leading Nazi officials also feared retribution from the Allies and, rather than face likely punishment for their war crimes, they decided to seek safe havens outside Germany, and beyond the reach of justice. According to the protocol from the meeting:
The party leadership is aware that, following the defeat of Germany, some of her best-known leaders may have to face trial as war criminals. Steps have therefore been taken to lodge the less prominent party leaders as "technical experts" in various German enterprises. The party is prepared to lend large sums of money to industrialists to enable every one of them to set up a secret post-war organization abroad, but as collateral it demands that the industrialists make available to it existing resources abroad, so that a strong German Reich may re-emerge after the defeat.....
The outcome of the meeting in Strasbourg was the genesis of an organization; one well-financed and well-organized, with the express purpose of helping fleeing Nazis escape justice. This organization was called the "Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen" "The Organization of former SS members) — better known as Odessa.

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 7-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Also to document Odessa, read Christopher Simpson’s several books, including: ‘Blowback: America's recruitment of Nazis, and its disastrous effect on our domestic and foreign policy” . The term ‘blowback’ refers to intelligence operations and disinformation that become publicly discredited and are a source of embarrassment to the perpetrators – such as a pedestrian example, ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, for example. Also, Simpson’s, “The Splendid Blonde Beast: Money, Law and Genocide in the Twentieth Century”.

From Blowback:

One organization is worthy of close scrutiny. It is the prominent Catholic lay group known as Intermarium. During its heyday in the 1940s and early 1950s leading members of this organization were deeply involved in smuggling Nazi fugitives out of Eastern Europe to safety in the West. Later Intermarium also became one of the single most important sources of recruits for the CIA's exile committees. This can be said with some certainty because about a score of Intermarium leaders ended up as activists or officials in Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberation, and the Assembly of Captive European Nations (ACEN), each of which the U.S. government has since admitted as having been a CIA-financed and -controlled organization.

Factions within the church that had long been sympathetic to the Nazis' extreme anti-Communist stand organized large-scale programs to facilitate the escapes of tens of thousands of Nazis and collaborators from Germany, Austria, Croatia, Slovakia, the Ukraine, and a number of other Eastern I European states.

The pivotal role of the church in the escape of the l Nazis has been emphasized by Luftwaffe Colonel Hans Ulrich Rudel, the highly decorated German air ace who became an international spokesman for the neo-Nazi movement after the war. "One may otherwise view Catholicism as one wishes. But what the Church, especially certain towering personalities within the Church, undertook in those years [immediately after the war] to save the best of our nation, often from certain death, must never be forgotten!" Colonel Rudel exclaimed in a speech at Kufstein in 1970. "In Rome itself, the transit point of the escape routes, a vast amount was done. With its own immense resources, the Church helped many of us to go overseas. In this manner, in quiet and secrecy, the demented victors' mad craving for revenge and retribution could be effectively counteracted."

And, from Splendid Blonde Beast,

Shortly before World War I, a secretive and disciplined cabal of young Turkish military officers known as the Ittihad took power in Turkey and brought the country into an alliance with Germany. These were the original "Young Turks," and their capacity for cruelty and violence still reverberates in that phrase today.

The genocide was particularly cruel to Armenian women and girls, who became the objects of a pervasive, tacitly sanctioned campaign of rape. Turkish police encouraged gangs of thugs to prey upon the deportees as a means of humiliating and destroying these women. Meanwhile, some Armenian girls were able to escape deportation by announcing a religious conversion to Islam, and in this way some Turkish men secured Armenian concubines and house slaves.

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 8-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

I think the Bormann conspiracy is active today, to the tune of at perhaps several trillion dollars of fascist, neo-nazi (actually, original nazi, too) influence including today’s interlocking directorates of the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank and so on.

CITY OF LONDON
I believe that may of today’s most successful multinational corporations including the most successful banks, pharmaceutical companies, rocket and automobile manufacturers, insurance companies, and so on … were in fact made so using Odessa officers and what would be today trillions of dollars of Nazi war booty. That, as Hitler said, the international conspiracy of international investment bankers (who co-direct the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc etc) NOT just Jewish but Christian, Catholic, Protestant what-have-you remain today responsible not only for funding WWI, WWII, Hitler, Communist Russia, Saudi Arabia, bin Laden and actively support Communist China in aggregating a “one-world-government-2012-catastrophe”. Hitler was a puppet just like the Bushes and the British monarchy – of the CITY OF LONDON/FED/etc – because they own the banks that own the oil and utility companies.

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 9-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

I would postulate the central bank of Russia, and Communist China and the Iranian Bourse and the pro-western new oil currency/central bank postulated for the islands off Saudi Arabia … and the Canada/U.S./Mexico new central bank signed-off on by G. Bush DUPLICATE the Bormann holdings, to a large extent INCLUDING the South American COCAINE syndicates founded by Nazi Klaus Barbie AND today’s HEROIN syndicates G. Bush allowed bin Laden to monopolize in Afghanistan and Pakistan as a thank you for bin Laden’s organizing the neo-Nazi, Saudi-Arabian Muhajidin (as they were named in the 80s) listed today (2008) as Al Qaeda … as they all are pursuing all the conspiracies described in the 2012 movie expose:

Once again, please read former Federal Prosecutor John Loftus (also a Nazi hunter) accounts of Odessa in ‘The Secret War Against the Jews’. Loftus is not a Jew, although he is honored by Jewish and non-Jewish organizations and American, British and German intelligence agents and counter-agents. As I recall, he extensively documents Odessa and you may use his index. Note his book in 1992 hardback and revised 1998 paperback. There is a hardback Paperback edition www.amazon.com...=reader_auth_dp [/url" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">(1998) from St. Martin's Griffin, Unholy Trinity: the Vatican, the Nazis & the Swiss Banks – and the original hardback edition (1992) Unholy Trinity: How the Vatican's Nazi Networks Betrayed Western Intelligence to the Soviets [url=] www.amazon.com...=sib_dp_pt/102-3391836-8600930#reader-link

Also, see Lou Wolf’s back-issues of Covert Action Bulletin, an intelligence watchdog & whistle-blower publication. www.covertactionquarterly.org...

Emory, Wiesenthal and Manning unmasked Odessa to the world. While I appreciate your view to marginalize Manning, marginalize the existence of Odessa, and to marginalize Bormann as Hitler’s post-WWII successor…

…certainly you would not also marginalize Emory, Loftus, Wiesenthal and Simpson, as well?

All this being said, I appreciate interacting with you because I can sort out what you know and what you don’t … as I’m sure you’re doing with me, and to what ends.

However, when you flatly state Odessa didn’t exist, and marginalize Bormann in order to praise Himmler, I think we’re on different sides of the teeter-totter, academically.

This being said, I’m still looking forward to carefully reading your posts, because I’m sure we both will find, that what is written about boils down to de-classified information – not only that it’s declassified, but by whom. I can attest to the accuracy of Dave Emory, and also to any shortcomings. And, I can, based upon the handful of researchers in the 20th Century who dedicated themselves to the truth, and to democracy, also stand behind John Loftus. I also stand behind Peter Dale Scott, Lou Wolf, Carl Oglesby, Wm. Domhoff, Sean Gervasi, Antony Kimmery, Antony Sutton, Martin E. Lee, Christopher Simpson, Henrik Kruger, Kurt Riess, Michael Sayers, Albert Kahn, George Seldes, James Stewart Mills and Eustace Mullins.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist. ...or, if they are important.

I am concerned making people aware that the threat of 2012 is trace-able directly to the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate that funds al Qaeda and all the other para-military terrorist operatives, owns all the banks, own all the oil companies, raises food prices, poisons food and wants to eliminate 90% of humanity -- and also funded the Nazis, Russians, Americans, British, Arabs, Israeli's Vietcong and so forth to bring about 2012.

This is what interests me too. I have good reason to believe that Bormann is a false flag, if indeed he was a conduit I would hazard the his 'controllers' would have had him killed as soon as he turned himself in - just as they did Himmler. Therefore, I am unwilling to 'flog a dead horse', it will get neither of us anywhere. However, I have traced all the connections to and from Himmler, with very few exceptions - this is not to say that I do not respect your point of view of Bormann, just that I don't think it is necessary or important (to me) to pursue that angle any further than I have - there is nothing new to be found at this stage. The point to understand is that whatever happened to Bormann, he was a cog and not a very important one at that. Some mysteries you have to let go, simply because we only have one lifetime, and proving something one way or another will propel you no further ahead.

Similarly there is no need to argue whether Odessa existed, the Rat Lines did. We also can trace the paths of the former SS and understand what purpose they filled post-war. At the end of the war, Nazis were aided by the Vatican (via Alois Hundal) to escape to South America, these are very well documented and based up on the testimony of those who used them. We also have some information regarding Skorzeny's post war activities, but this is somewhat more shrouded.

Skorzeny was at this stage going through the trial system having been captured by US forces in May 1945, but there is was very little evidence produced against him (again we can argue the whys and wherefores but the result is the same) and he like many others, escaped from an internment camp in 1948. The Vatican Rat Lines had by this time dried up.

During the war, Skorzeny had led a Commando unit based upon the British model set up by Churchill, his unit after some initial failures had succeeded in rescuing Mussolini in 1943. This placed him favourably with Hitler and Himmler promoted him to Major-General. He was used in 'Action Horthy', the plan to kidnap the Hungarian king who was at that time (Oct 1944) engaged in talks with the Russians. Once again he was successful. The infamous Operation Greif followed in December. He was a man who believed that the ends justified the means and was happy as long as he got paid. He was also about as far-right as you can get.

Skorzeny opened an import and export business in 1951 in Madrid. This was a front through which he helped former members of the SS to escape Germany. Skorzeny then formed these men into mercenary units. Via his hotel in Denia (on the mediterranean coast) he transferred these units to Africa, the Middle-East and South America (for which he was rewarded handsomely). Additionally, he set up HIAG (Federation of German Soldiers) which not only funded the escape of the men from Germany but also funded denialist propaganda. There are also a number of rumours that suggest he supplied mercenaries for use by the French in Indo-China. This is more heavily concealed, for obvious reasons.

Skorzeny obviously must have had a contact list, every good mercenary runner needs high level contacts. He obviously made a vast amount of money as he bought a number of properties both in Spain and Ireland (which may give you a hint as to his contacts). Franco though initially in business with the Nazis soon changed sides to support Britain when the Nazis ran out of hard currency, and Churchill authorised regular and large payments to the Spanish dictator. It can be therefore assumed that Skorzeny was in contact, via Franco, with the Churchill faction (which included Sir William Stephenson, another mercenary runner).

Now for me, this is all the information I need. Skorzeny organised mercenaries, those mercenaries were used in illegal wars and by governments against their own citizens. Skorzeny arranged assassinations. For all this he was rewarded. These represent any number of factions and concerns. Again, it helps fill in the picture but we are no nearer our goal. Skorzeny was a cog, a vicious and brutal one, but like the mercenaries he ran, trained by Theodor Eicke, they were of no use otherwise. The only skills they had, were to murder with impunity. They were protected by those who hired them, but the employers varied.

Incidently another great book by Forsyth, The Dogs of War (please read the book if you are interested, do not settle for the film, it pales in comparison) deals with the mercenary system and the mess that was made of Africa as a result. If you want to learn more about Skorzeny I recommend, although I can't remember the title, Charles Whiting's book on him. He interviewed him a number of times.

I've just googled it and here is a link - great book and writer (I have read a number of his books - he actually lived a couple of streets down from me, but I didn't, sadly, find that out until he died)

www.amazon.com...=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

I have found that time and time again on this subject, I come to a dead end. Sometimes I try to find a chink, but often I have found it most productive to trace back my steps and try another route. You have to let some things go, because to do otherwise is to chase shadows...but that is me, we perhaps are looking for different things.

As I said I can talk about this all day, I love the subject (as macabre as it may be to some) and it is good to find someone who shares my enthusiasm for detail. I am happy to discuss Bormann up until 1945, but after that the trail is cold and irrelevant. He is not important enough to warrant my time, I hope that doesn;t seem dismissive, I don't intend it to be, but like you I have my own priorities and I have been there done that already, got no-where. There are far more interesting paths to follow, productive too. Bormann like the denialist debate only expends time and energy without any reward or foreseeable conclusion.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by KilgoreTrout]