for neo-nazi holocaust deniers

Germany’s Master Plan – The Story of Industrial Offensive, by Joseph Borkin and Charles A Welsh, 1943
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...[/url]
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...

Treason’s Peace – German Dyes and American Dupes
by Howard Watson Ambruster, 1947
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...
According to Emory,

The Thousand-Year Conspiracy – Secret Germany Behind the Mask, by Paul Winkler, 1943
Part I spitfirelist.com... Part II spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...

Says Emory,

Falange – The Axis Secret Army in the Americas by Allan Chase, 1943
Part I www.spitfirelist.com... Part II [url=] www.spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
[url=] www.spitfirelist.com...

The Devil’s Chemists – 24 Conspirators of the International Farben Cartel Who Manufacture Wars by Josiah E. DuBois, Jr., 1952
Part I www.spitfirelist.com... Part II [url=] www.spitfirelist.com...
Book Description by Dave Emory
www.spitfirelist.com...


Emory says,

CT: Today, look how Halleburton (co-directed by Fed directors) and G.W. Bush’s Carlyle Group work together to monopolize the creation of war destroying everything and everyone, the repression of the people domestically and abroad, and the rebuilding of everything after they destroy it. It’s done primarily with (Y)OUR TAX MONEY, BUT they keep all the profits.

Some of the files that Manning was given access to have since been declassified, and they refer to Himmler not Bormann. I recommend that you visit the CIA archive, it has extensive on-line resources of declassified files...probably not complete.

From what I gathered from the Acknowledgement of Dulles was not that it was a passing thanks for giving access to the records, it was a thanks for assuring him that he was on the right track. This in some way exonerates Manning and places the responsibility on Dulles for deflecting the investigation. I have been looking for an origin to the Bormann/money rumours for some time and I will indeed read the entire book (still working my way through it now) as it is fascinating the lengths that the Allies went to deflect attention. I am in no way saying that Bormann was not involved but I am very doubtful that he was, not with the money at least. There is still very much of interest here though, but we can address that later in greater detail.

As you state Dulles is not to be trusted, this is the man after all who convinced his old pal John J McCloy that a lone gunman was entirely responsible for the JFK assassination when they both sat on the Warren Commission. I suspect that, at the very least Manning was used by Dulles.



Odessa was not a real organisation, it was invented by Frederick Forsyth for his 1972 novel, The Odessa File. Like much of Forsyth's work though it does have basis in fact, there were (it has been firmly established) a number of organisations that assisted members of the SS in their escape from Europe and who negotiated terms of surrender on their behalf. Forsyth for the sake of 'the story' brought them together under a single organisation.

Gudrun Himmler, a life long campaigner for the fair treatment of ex-SS members has raised and directed funds to help individuals and their families with connections to the SS. The Vatican unofficially assisted many to escape, disguised as Priests and other members of the clergy, the South America. These operations were mainly under Alois Hundal. The Red Cross has similarly been implicated in providing passports and visas to SS.



It should be noted that the end of the cold war has released a significant amount of data that directly contradicts a great deal of the histories written prior to 1990. These records are still largely untapped, but it is slowly expanding our knowledge as historians gain access. As I am sure you have realised, neither British or US intelligence services can be relied up on. Much time and effort has been expended up on muddying the waters. It should be noted that the majority of those who wrote histories of the WW2 from the British end were employed during the war in SIS - Basil Liddle-Hart, MRD Foot, FW Winterbotham, Hugh Trevor-Roper and as I mentioned previously, EH Cookridge (amongst others) were considered the Pre-eminent authorites on WW2, all of them worked for one faction or another of SIS and their work reflects those priorities.



I will address this in relation to your later post.



Again this is attributing responsibilities to Bormann that were in fact Himmlers. Very interesting and I am intrigued as to why Dulles would want to do that. I wonder if he was worried that Bormann was alive and there was an attempt to taint him...not really sure on that. But it seems the British had similar concerns about Himmler - that he had in fact survived. There have been similar attempts to resurrect Mueller too, not least of all a highly fictious set of interviews, which are laughable at best and show a limited knowledge of the WW2 arena which Mueller himself certainly wouldn't have as head of the Gestapo.

It is possible that Bormann escaped to South America, I feel that given a number of factors, it is more likely that he escaped to the Soviet Union - if he escaped at all. I noted that Manning described him as being 31 years of age at the time of the fall of Berlin. He was in fact at least 45 and not in peak physical conditions due to his corpulent lifestyle, it is feasible that he surrendered to Red Army forces, it is feasible that he died, it is not particularly feasible that he escaped Berlin on his own devices.



This is interesting. Mueller is fully promoted here..the Gestapo was by no means the best intelligence organisation in the world. It was a relatively small body of men that relied entirely on the reports of civilians. Nazi propaganda certainly inflated their powers and reach, but Mueller would have known to the contrary. This is why it stinks.

Now don’t get me wrong, I know that the SS were heavily involved in post-war operations in the middle-east, as well as South America, Africa and Indo-China – but I doubt very much that Mueller had anything to do with it for very simple reasons. 1) He was not that valuable an asset, that is, he had no special abilities or knowledge (that would aid him in this type of work.) 2) Given his limited abilities combined with his notoriety, he was a greater liability than he was a benefit, there were any number of men who could have done what Mueller is alledged to have done with much less famous names. People that their so-called ‘enemy’ didn’t even know about.

Mueller did have some alliance to Bormann though, so it is possible, but I would say unlikely. The more I read the more I am convinced that Manning’s book is disinfo, but I am still highly intrigued as to the ‘Why’.

The Simon Weisanthal centre could bear some scrutiny though as he is the only other person to give credence to ‘Odessa’, I read his biography many years ago and he was somewhat of a man possessed, but what is interesting is that Arnold Swartzenegger, used the centre to check on his father’s ‘Nazi Past’, they incidently cleared him…could the Wiesanthal Centre be a front???? It doesn’t jar too much in my mind I am sad to admit.

I am not going to address Bormann's involvement directly at this point, I think that I have expressed my opinion and that is all I can do. If you are interested, you need to bring your reading up to date, and then form your own opinion.



Kaltenbrunner would not have been involved in discussions of this level, his opinion would not have counted and he would not have been privy to this information. Kaltenbrunner was tried at Nuremberg and no effort was made to keep him quiet, he was therefore not an asset of any of the organisations that we are discussing. He was allowed to hang.

He did succeed Heydrich as head of RSHA, but he was a 'can do'. He is implicated in a number of assassinations and was part of the intimidation brigades who prepared Austria for the Anschluss. He was in short a psychopathic thug and would not have been trusted with high level secrets. Most importantly though, at the time that these discussions took place, Reinhard Heydrich was still head of RSHA (he would have been trusted by Hitler and Himmler). Additionally there is no record, anywhere that I know of, of such a meeting taking place with Hitler present. Himmler did though enter into such discussions with Bach-Zewelski.



Again, I'll leave Bormann to one side for now. Schacht and Himmler, definate, clear and accountable connections there. Skorzeny though, who seems to get blamed for a great deal, would again not have been involved or privy to these discussions. Otto Skorzeny was another 'can do' and specialised on various forms of thuggery and assassinations. He is though of interest. He set up and operated a number of post-war mercenary groups and not long before his death, he founded the Palladin Group.

It is in mercenary groups that most of the operational former SS found themselves post-war - working for private interests, the British, the US and France amongst others. They were of little use for anything else, they had been trained as murderers, they had been named as members of a criminal organisations at Nuremberg - to say they were without too many choices is an understatement.



This is important...Gehlen had no connection to the SS. He was not even remotely connected to the SS other than in his capacity as head of OKH intelligence as it related to FHO. He would therefore have had some operational contact with units of the Waffen SS in regard to Barbarossa. Gehlen's wartime responsibilities were limited to providing strategic and tactical intelligence to the Heere (Army). This is not the same as SIS, that was firmly under the control of Himmler's SS. If you need me to clarify that further let me know. (There is much more to discuss on Canaris but I am trying to work through your posts first)



If you Google Aktion 1005 you will obtain further information on this - again Katzmann would not have be privy to anything other than issuing orders on Himmler's behalf (I recommend that you read up on the Fuhrer Prinzip to understand the power structure of Nazi Germany) - Himmler assigned Paul Blobel (responsible for commanding the massacre at Babi Yar that murdered 33, 700+ Jewish men, women and children over a 36 hour period) the task of retracing the path of the Waffen SS and Einsatzgruppen, exhuming the mass graves (indluding those at Treblinka) and disposing of as much of the evidence as possible. If you do a search on Blobel I am sure the transcripts of his testimony are available on-line.



This is confusing. You need to understand the power structure of Nazi Germany and the number of seperate, and competing factions. Military and SS are two entirely seperate groups - independent of each other in their entirety - except as mentioned above in my comments relating to Gehlen, where they were used in military campaigns. As far as SIS and home security they came entirely under Himmler and the two groups hated each other. Himmler had NO friends in the Wehrmacht, indeed he wasn't even respected by the leaders of the Waffen-SS who were involved in actual warfare (as opposed to murdering civilians). Sepp Dietrich refused to even shake his hand and would make himself scarce on planned visits by Himmler. He loathed Himmler with a vengeance. The Wehrmacht had an even lower opinion of Himmler.

Additionally, the Nazi Party was also a separate entity to the SS and the Wehrmacht. There are very few members of the Wehrmacht who held party membership, and there are very, very few who had any affiliation with the SS.



This is again confusing and I will try and clarify. The Roehm purge was organized by Himmler, Goering and Goebbels – each for their own reasons. The Reichswehr assisted, as the SA was promoted (by the above) as being a threat to them. Heydrich manufactured much of the evidence against Roehm and the SA, and given his position of trust with Hitler was given the task of convincing Hitler of the ‘urgency’ of dealing with his friend Roehm. The purge was complete and not isolated to the SA leadership. Those who represented a major threat to Hitler’s leadership were included, although they represented a greater threat to Himmler and Goering’s status. Gregor Strasser was removed as was Schleichter. Both these men were members of the Thulist movement and were integral in Hitler’s early rise to prominence. There were many others. The best write up I have come across of the purge is from Guido Knopp’s SS: A warning from History, but there are a number of other books that deal with it. Goebbel’s diaries are highly insightful.



Absolutely no questions here, all can be verified – apart from the Bormann connection. Could it be that the Bormann story was fabricated to deflect from the veracity of Mullin’s work? I am much more inclined to believe that I have to admit.



What interests me is that Bormann and Himmler did have a rather unlikely ‘friendship’. What you need to understand is that the money that flowed out of Germany, in the most part, flowed back again – in addition and not including the funds received as part of the Marshal Plan. However, it is known that Himmler had numerous personal accounts where he deposited his own war time profits, namely the $1 million per year he received from his ‘Circle of Friends’ for his ‘support’ – he had many other sources of income too. His relationship with Bormann is odd, but given the disdain with which they were both treated (Bormann was referred to as the ‘Brown Eminence’ by Goebbels and Goering for his favouring the brown shirt and his therefore obvious allegiance to the more socialist elements of the Nazi Party) within the Nazi hierarchy it could be seen as mutually beneficial that they remained in touch. Their families mixed socially (Bormann’s children and wife even paid at least one visit to Himmler’s mistresses and their children’s home), but this could have more to do with their mutual isolation as anything else. They both had access to Hitler and they both sought to retain the power that that gave them.

Bormann could only have gained access to Nazi party funds, these were pretty much spent by the end of the war – the coffers were empty. The SS funds and those industrialists who were with the ‘Circle’ could only have been accessed by Bormann via Himmler. No matter how close they were I find it very doubtful, given both their characters that this would have happened. So again I err on the side of Bormann being used as rouse.

reply to post by counterterrorist

---

I have run out of time for now, but I will get back to replies 3, 4 and 5 later today...I want to dig out some quotes for you as well. I apologise for taking so long over this but I don't have a great deal of time at the moment, you've caught me at a bad time and I am trying to read as many of your sources as thoroughly as I can which further takes time. I should get back on this evening and I will (hopefully) finish up then.

All the best

Now it is entirely up to you whether you pursue the Bormann angle, I am developing a growing convinction that it is a false flag, but I do remain open minded to clear evidence to the contrary. Certain elements of the funkspiel operations at the time of Barbarossa, which include Mueller’s involvement do mean that there are questions in my mind…but for the purposes of this discussion I think that Bormann is irrelevant. That is my opinion and I have no wish to force it as it would only detract from the more tangible elements of this discussion.

This though is an interesting article, not least of all because it appears on the Wallenberg website, who we will get to shortly, claiming that Bormann was harboured not in South America but in England!!! Once again though, it is really up to you to form your own opinion.

www.raoulwallenberg.net.../articles/james-bond-nabs-martin-bormann.946.htm

I am open to suggestions about Bormann, simply not in connection to money for the reasons I have described previously and for the fact that I cannot see what he would have brought to the negotiating table otherwise. He may have been ‘connected’ but apart from his knowledge of the holocaust operations he does not hold any information of interest to the Allies (and industrialists/Financiers), and in that context, they would have wanted him dead not alive and there for me is his only similarity to Himmler. Although given his activities with the funkspiel operations it could be that during the war he was involved in intelligence operations that were counter to Germany (or seemingly so at least), it is feasible that he could have been a British or a Soviet asset in that context.



Neither. Hitler had, largely due to the ineptitude of von Ribbentrop, a limited knowledge of English social and political structure. In short he did not understand the nature of a constitutional monarchy and that the monarch had no real power. Hitler attempted to offer the Duke of Windsor, who abdicated the throne to marry Wallis Simpson, the throne of England in return for his assistance and public support. This failed for any number of reasons, most pertinently, due to the fact that the Windsor’s were only interested in money and supporting their social life. Work, in any form, was a anathema to them both.

However, there were factions within Britain who were supportive of an alliance with Germany, and Hitler himself very much wanted that, seeing us as natural partners in ruling Europe – as he describes in Mein Kampf, Hitler saw Britain and Germany as ‘walking side by side’. These factions sought to gain a vote of no confidence against Churchill, which would pave the way for peace with Germany. Churchill though was a formidable opponent and was well aware of these murmurings, he set up an intelligence operation to draw them in, which was in part behind Hess’s flight to Scotland in May 1941, but which ultimately resulted in Hitler’s attack on Russia (and deflection away from the Middle-East, Churchill’s primary concern). The operation was considered so secret that it was not given an official designation, but has been given the name ‘Operation HHHH’ since (the H’s represent Hitler, Hess, Haushofer and Hoare).

That said, the Royal family did make indirect investments in Nazi Germany, the depth of their knowledge of what they were investing in is questionable and unlikely to ever be addressed conclusively. It is known that they made payments to Enskilda Bank (owned by the Wallenbergs) which were then used to make investments in Germany, most notably in Bosch. These investments were heavily cloaked at the end of the war by Enskilda. Enskilda was the main conduit at the end of the war for investors in Germany, they cloaked the German interests of both British and US investors. So much for neutrality.



Bormann did not outrank Himmler as such, technically but not practically (there is a distinction). Himmler as Reichsfuhrer SS was responsible for security, intelligence and policing in Germany, the occupied territories and (with the absorbtion of the Abwehr) international intelligence. Bormann was deputy Fuehrer, and head of the Nazi party. Himmler received his orders from Hitler, either directly or via Bormann, Bormann did not have authority over Himmler himself, only as Hitler’s delegate. However, Bormann did increasingly limit access to Hitler (for a number of reasons) and it is known that on matters relating to the ‘Final Solution’ Himmler increasingly received his orders from Bormann, especially in the latter stages. Additonally, Bormann was appointed to a ‘Council of 3’ along with Hans Lammers and Wilhelm Keitel – to oversee ‘domestic matters’ in Hitler’s absence (much to Goebbels discomfort). Hitler was rarely in Berlin after 1941, basing himself at his ‘Wolf’s Lair’ in Eastern Prussian from where he directed the war effort. Bormann, no doubt dominated the council, neither Lammers or Keitel being noted for their strength of character, and it is probably that Bormann would have issued directive to the Himmler in relation to matters pertaining to Germany.

I know of no connection between Schmitz and Bormann (which is not to say it doesn’t exist just that I do not know of any). Schmitz was president of the board of American IG Farben. This is an excellent article on IG and well worth a read. I can recommend a number of books which cover IG’s involvement in financing Hitler, their utilization of concentration camp inmates and of their monopolies agreements with the US (particularly Standard Oil in terms of synthetic oil and rubber patents) if you are interested. There is quite a large body of work that has been written on this subject, largely due to the courts cases both before and after US involvement in WW2.

reformed-theology.org...

The information that comes after this in your post gets a bit more complex (and interesting from my point of view), so I will break up my response to your post here. What I do need to know, you say the following information comes from your book – do you mean the book you wrote or the John Loftus book? It is pretty widely established knowledge and I see little benefit in my adding my comments to it. I really think you would do better with this information if you were to re-word it and provide better context to the events you allude to. In it’s current form it is a bit exclusive/confusing and will mean nothing to most, which is a shame.

This is ALL great stuff but as I said I would really like you to write it out for the benefit of those who may not know the connections and background. Canaris as this point had affiliated himself to Himmler, Himmler was, in the process of setting him up of course.



I am somewhat doubtful of this, it doesn’t sound much like Canaris. Canaris did not esteem anyone, he was a fascinating man but he was the epitome of the ‘secret agent’, something that Dulles was not. When Dulles told Donovan that he had been appointed head of CIA laughed (he also refused to recommend him for the post). As the history we are discussing proves the US side of things was highly leaky and Dulles’ comings and going in Berne are very well documented – he was not a very ‘secret’ agent!!! Canaris on the other hand was brilliant at his chosen profession. Under Canaris, the Abwehr operated one of the most extensive foreign espionage networks ever created – in the US. His esteem for Dulles was not as one ‘spook’ to another, but he would have known that he was a man who could be pandered to and bought for the right price.



I would really like to see you expand up on this as I am unsure of what you are implying. Von Gaevernitz was official aide to Dulles (he was German-American, he was also a bi-sexual which may have been Dulles means of connecting with Canaris???).



Again can you clarify and expand on this. Dulles lived at 23 Herrengasse, not Gisevius incidently. I am somewhat doubtful that Diels would be in any position to inform Schacht of anything either – Goering maybe, but Diels was persona non grata otherwise. Canaris could have been briefed by Schacht, do you have anything else on that relationship?

I’m struggling to comment on the rest without actually re-writing it, which I do not want to do. I recommend that study Schellenberg and his post-war activities. He was a close affiliate of Canaris, as was Reinhard Heydrich. I realise that you are posting this information to counter holocaust denial but I really suggest that, as a writer, you attempt to put it into a fuller and cohesive form. You would also benefit from examining Schacht and his relationships in detail, especially his British connections. I do not know how you could write what you have without comprehending the information, it is an amazing feat and I congratulate you. However, for the purposes that you have presented the information here as a rebuttal, to the deniers, you really should try and make it accessible to a wider audience as I think that there are only a few of us who will understand the wider implications. I would also consider examining the 20 July 1944 plot in greater detail, I think you will find it will open your eyes to many things.

Thank you for taking the time to assist me and do not hesitate to U2U me if I can return the service. I must though get my act together though and finish part five on my own thread (I am easily distracted, I could talk about the Nazis and WW2 all day given the chance).

All the best and I wish you well.

Edit to add: PS I haven't forgotten about the thread I asked you to start, I just got distracted here I'm afraid. I will get to it as I think that is a fascinating subject but I'm digging around for a few things in relation to that.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by KilgoreTrout]

reply to KilgoreTrout (1-of-9)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

You say,

You favor the Himmler version of history. I favor the Bormann version.

I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist. ...or, if they are important.

I am concerned making people aware that the threat of 2012 is trace-able directly to the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate that funds al Qaeda and all the other para-military terrorist operatives, owns all the banks, own all the oil companies, raises food prices, poisons food and wants to eliminate 90% of humanity -- and also funded the Nazis, Russians, Americans, British, Arabs, Israeli's Vietcong and so forth to bring about 2012.

<> Operation rat line part 1 www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

I really don’t have time to ‘read-up’ on the historical workings of the Nazi Party, I am only too aware of ongoing Nazi activity from 1923 to 2012. I’m not too concerned with who said what. Or when. Nothing personal … just not my thing.

Have you read the most recent anti-nazi/anti-neo-nazi books by Loftus, Simpson and so on? …if so, you would be totally familiar with the documentation of Odessa.

<> Operation rat line part 2 www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

This whole Nazi investigation stuff leaves me cold and who said what simply doesn’t matter to me in terms of being an activist TODAY in identifying and holding responsible those money-issuing families currently waging 2012 against us, which is the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate in an effort to stop 2012.

Regrettably, I haven't had time to read your total response yet I just skimmed through it; however, a few things caught my mind.

<> Operation rat line part 3 www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

I may be out of touch for about 5-10 days as I've spent so much time on ATS I'm a week behind on some important work.

Here’s Emory, here’s Manning, here’s Bormann, here’s Loftus … that’s the most I can do to shed some light. I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist(ed) or how important they may or may not be.

I’ve provided this radio broadcast urls because they’re free and you don’t have to buy – or read -- the books that contain the declassified info. First,
Here’s a few 1-2 min videos of Emory speaking: ftrsummary.blogspot.com...

Here’s his broadcasts, that can be downloaded (see FTRs, below) wfmu.org...
wfmu.org...
http ://wfmu. org/playlists/DX

For those without Loftus' books, The Secret War Against the Jews; and, The Unholy Trinity ...

<>US energy companies were secretly negotiating with the Taliban <>
Here’s John Loftus’s website www.john-loftus.com... It always has a bunch of recently declassified documents, for example, stuff like this, too


[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 2-of-9)

(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Here's some of Dave Emory's free radio interviews of John:
<> FTR-145 wfmu.org... Paul Manning's Correspondence with Other Journalists 3/21/99
According to Emory: According to Emory, these corporations in effect constitute the NWO. I might add, under the umbrella of the City of London Bankers that direct the Bank of England and own & direct the Fed, Bundesbank, etc.

Nazi money trail heats up after 50 years.
<> FTR-305 Description - www.spitfirelist.com... Radio program – wfmu.org... The Bormann Organization June 1997. According to Emory,

<> FTR-332 www.spitfirelist.com... Radio program – wfmu.org... “B” as in Bush, “B” as in Bormann, “B” as in Von Bolschwing 10/21/2001
According to Emory,

Here’s Loftus on radio for you to listen to:
<> FTR-618 Radio program – wfmu.org... Veterans' Day Interview with John Loftus 11/11/07 According to Dave E.



[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 3-of-9)

(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Do you agree that “Nazi” means “agents of the interlocking directorate of the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc …or do you not agree?

You said,
To what ends do you think Manning was ‘used’ by Dulles? To allow people to think Bormann & Odessa hid in South America and not England. BUT Dulles representing the USA- Fed and Philby representing City of London’s the Bank of England were PARTNERS … so it makes no difference playing who’s hiding where.

And you say,
Well, Hundal was a bishop and presumably, as you say, may have helped Rauff escape. Who was Rauff? According to
www.telusplanet.net...

Is Rauff not the subject of this video: Confronting Nazi legacy in Argentia
www.youtube.com...
http: //www. Youtube .com /watch?v=taGuLzH_9Jc

YouTube Link

[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 4-of-9)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’
THE SECRET AMBER ROOM
<> San Jose Mercury News, 4/28/2000, FTR#234 [url=]http://www.spitfirelist.com/f234.html[url]details a young German’s accidental and terrifying encounter with the Bormann outfit. Emory

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 5-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Here’s some more of Emory interview Loftus you might find interesting.

According to Loftus,

FTR-473 scroll down a page or so… www.spitfirelist.com...
John Loftus on the Arab-Nazi-Al Qaeda Network 8/22/04 Emory interviews Loftus


FTR-406 scroll down a page or so…
www.spitfirelist.com... An Interview with John Loftus 4/13/03


FTR-564 scroll down a page or so …
www.spitfirelist.com...
Interview with John Loftus – He Who Tells the Truth Gets Chased Out of Nine Villages 08/13/06
FTR-532 scroll down a page or so…
spitfirelist.com...
Interview with John Loftus about Unholy Trinity and Intelligence Summit 11/06/05
FTR-514 scroll down a page or so…
www.spitfirelist.com... Conversation with John Loftus About the Muslim Brotherhood 06/12/05


To download the book about Bormann in PDF, go to: Manning - PDF
To download the chapters in HTML, go to: www.animalfarm.org...
To read a synopsis on Paul Manning, go to: About Paul Manning www.spitfirelist.com...]
FTR-290 The Japanese Economy and the Kido Organization (the Japanese Bormann Organization) 4/8/2001
For addition nonprofit broadcasts on college radio by Dave Emory you can Dave Emory
[url=]http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX.

Spitfire offers free books online and free program summaries.
spitfirelist.com...


[edit on 21-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 6-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Additionally, you say,

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
According to Simon Wiesenthal, and furthermore:

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 7-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

Also to document Odessa, read Christopher Simpson’s several books, including: ‘Blowback: America's recruitment of Nazis, and its disastrous effect on our domestic and foreign policy” . The term ‘blowback’ refers to intelligence operations and disinformation that become publicly discredited and are a source of embarrassment to the perpetrators – such as a pedestrian example, ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, for example. Also, Simpson’s, “The Splendid Blonde Beast: Money, Law and Genocide in the Twentieth Century”.

From Blowback: And, from Splendid Blonde Beast,

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 8-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

I think the Bormann conspiracy is active today, to the tune of at perhaps several trillion dollars of fascist, neo-nazi (actually, original nazi, too) influence including today’s interlocking directorates of the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank and so on.

CITY OF LONDON
I believe that may of today’s most successful multinational corporations including the most successful banks, pharmaceutical companies, rocket and automobile manufacturers, insurance companies, and so on … were in fact made so using Odessa officers and what would be today trillions of dollars of Nazi war booty. That, as Hitler said, the international conspiracy of international investment bankers (who co-direct the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc etc) NOT just Jewish but Christian, Catholic, Protestant what-have-you remain today responsible not only for funding WWI, WWII, Hitler, Communist Russia, Saudi Arabia, bin Laden and actively support Communist China in aggregating a “one-world-government-2012-catastrophe”. Hitler was a puppet just like the Bushes and the British monarchy – of the CITY OF LONDON/FED/etc – because they own the banks that own the oil and utility companies.

reply to KilgoreTrout (B: 9-of-9)
(continued)
Beware the Bormann conspiracy (1943-2012), Organization Der Ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen

...formerly called Odessa & World Order … now referred to as ‘nwo’ & ‘2012’

I would postulate the central bank of Russia, and Communist China and the Iranian Bourse and the pro-western new oil currency/central bank postulated for the islands off Saudi Arabia … and the Canada/U.S./Mexico new central bank signed-off on by G. Bush DUPLICATE the Bormann holdings, to a large extent INCLUDING the South American COCAINE syndicates founded by Nazi Klaus Barbie AND today’s HEROIN syndicates G. Bush allowed bin Laden to monopolize in Afghanistan and Pakistan as a thank you for bin Laden’s organizing the neo-Nazi, Saudi-Arabian Muhajidin (as they were named in the 80s) listed today (2008) as Al Qaeda … as they all are pursuing all the conspiracies described in the 2012 movie expose:

Once again, please read former Federal Prosecutor John Loftus (also a Nazi hunter) accounts of Odessa in ‘The Secret War Against the Jews’. Loftus is not a Jew, although he is honored by Jewish and non-Jewish organizations and American, British and German intelligence agents and counter-agents. As I recall, he extensively documents Odessa and you may use his index. Note his book in 1992 hardback and revised 1998 paperback. There is a hardback Paperback edition www.amazon.com...=reader_auth_dp [/url" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">(1998) from St. Martin's Griffin, Unholy Trinity: the Vatican, the Nazis & the Swiss Banks – and the original hardback edition (1992) Unholy Trinity: How the Vatican's Nazi Networks Betrayed Western Intelligence to the Soviets [url=] www.amazon.com...=sib_dp_pt/102-3391836-8600930#reader-link

Also, see Lou Wolf’s back-issues of Covert Action Bulletin, an intelligence watchdog & whistle-blower publication. www.covertactionquarterly.org...

Emory, Wiesenthal and Manning unmasked Odessa to the world. While I appreciate your view to marginalize Manning, marginalize the existence of Odessa, and to marginalize Bormann as Hitler’s post-WWII successor…

…certainly you would not also marginalize Emory, Loftus, Wiesenthal and Simpson, as well?

All this being said, I appreciate interacting with you because I can sort out what you know and what you don’t … as I’m sure you’re doing with me, and to what ends.

However, when you flatly state Odessa didn’t exist, and marginalize Bormann in order to praise Himmler, I think we’re on different sides of the teeter-totter, academically.

This being said, I’m still looking forward to carefully reading your posts, because I’m sure we both will find, that what is written about boils down to de-classified information – not only that it’s declassified, but by whom. I can attest to the accuracy of Dave Emory, and also to any shortcomings. And, I can, based upon the handful of researchers in the 20th Century who dedicated themselves to the truth, and to democracy, also stand behind John Loftus. I also stand behind Peter Dale Scott, Lou Wolf, Carl Oglesby, Wm. Domhoff, Sean Gervasi, Antony Kimmery, Antony Sutton, Martin E. Lee, Christopher Simpson, Henrik Kruger, Kurt Riess, Michael Sayers, Albert Kahn, George Seldes, James Stewart Mills and Eustace Mullins.

This is what interests me too. I have good reason to believe that Bormann is a false flag, if indeed he was a conduit I would hazard the his 'controllers' would have had him killed as soon as he turned himself in - just as they did Himmler. Therefore, I am unwilling to 'flog a dead horse', it will get neither of us anywhere. However, I have traced all the connections to and from Himmler, with very few exceptions - this is not to say that I do not respect your point of view of Bormann, just that I don't think it is necessary or important (to me) to pursue that angle any further than I have - there is nothing new to be found at this stage. The point to understand is that whatever happened to Bormann, he was a cog and not a very important one at that. Some mysteries you have to let go, simply because we only have one lifetime, and proving something one way or another will propel you no further ahead.

Similarly there is no need to argue whether Odessa existed, the Rat Lines did. We also can trace the paths of the former SS and understand what purpose they filled post-war. At the end of the war, Nazis were aided by the Vatican (via Alois Hundal) to escape to South America, these are very well documented and based up on the testimony of those who used them. We also have some information regarding Skorzeny's post war activities, but this is somewhat more shrouded.

Skorzeny was at this stage going through the trial system having been captured by US forces in May 1945, but there is was very little evidence produced against him (again we can argue the whys and wherefores but the result is the same) and he like many others, escaped from an internment camp in 1948. The Vatican Rat Lines had by this time dried up.

During the war, Skorzeny had led a Commando unit based upon the British model set up by Churchill, his unit after some initial failures had succeeded in rescuing Mussolini in 1943. This placed him favourably with Hitler and Himmler promoted him to Major-General. He was used in 'Action Horthy', the plan to kidnap the Hungarian king who was at that time (Oct 1944) engaged in talks with the Russians. Once again he was successful. The infamous Operation Greif followed in December. He was a man who believed that the ends justified the means and was happy as long as he got paid. He was also about as far-right as you can get.

Skorzeny opened an import and export business in 1951 in Madrid. This was a front through which he helped former members of the SS to escape Germany. Skorzeny then formed these men into mercenary units. Via his hotel in Denia (on the mediterranean coast) he transferred these units to Africa, the Middle-East and South America (for which he was rewarded handsomely). Additionally, he set up HIAG (Federation of German Soldiers) which not only funded the escape of the men from Germany but also funded denialist propaganda. There are also a number of rumours that suggest he supplied mercenaries for use by the French in Indo-China. This is more heavily concealed, for obvious reasons.

Skorzeny obviously must have had a contact list, every good mercenary runner needs high level contacts. He obviously made a vast amount of money as he bought a number of properties both in Spain and Ireland (which may give you a hint as to his contacts). Franco though initially in business with the Nazis soon changed sides to support Britain when the Nazis ran out of hard currency, and Churchill authorised regular and large payments to the Spanish dictator. It can be therefore assumed that Skorzeny was in contact, via Franco, with the Churchill faction (which included Sir William Stephenson, another mercenary runner).

Now for me, this is all the information I need. Skorzeny organised mercenaries, those mercenaries were used in illegal wars and by governments against their own citizens. Skorzeny arranged assassinations. For all this he was rewarded. These represent any number of factions and concerns. Again, it helps fill in the picture but we are no nearer our goal. Skorzeny was a cog, a vicious and brutal one, but like the mercenaries he ran, trained by Theodor Eicke, they were of no use otherwise. The only skills they had, were to murder with impunity. They were protected by those who hired them, but the employers varied.

Incidently another great book by Forsyth, The Dogs of War (please read the book if you are interested, do not settle for the film, it pales in comparison) deals with the mercenary system and the mess that was made of Africa as a result. If you want to learn more about Skorzeny I recommend, although I can't remember the title, Charles Whiting's book on him. He interviewed him a number of times.

I've just googled it and here is a link - great book and writer (I have read a number of his books - he actually lived a couple of streets down from me, but I didn't, sadly, find that out until he died)

www.amazon.com...=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

I have found that time and time again on this subject, I come to a dead end. Sometimes I try to find a chink, but often I have found it most productive to trace back my steps and try another route. You have to let some things go, because to do otherwise is to chase shadows...but that is me, we perhaps are looking for different things.

As I said I can talk about this all day, I love the subject (as macabre as it may be to some) and it is good to find someone who shares my enthusiasm for detail. I am happy to discuss Bormann up until 1945, but after that the trail is cold and irrelevant. He is not important enough to warrant my time, I hope that doesn;t seem dismissive, I don't intend it to be, but like you I have my own priorities and I have been there done that already, got no-where. There are far more interesting paths to follow, productive too. Bormann like the denialist debate only expends time and energy without any reward or foreseeable conclusion.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by KilgoreTrout]